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5 minutes ago, A F said:

I'm going to write something controversial here. I actually think our delivery to our forwards for most of the year has been fine, but McDonald and Weideman et al have been unable to take strong marks. Today was a really good example of this trend. 5 or 6 times in the first half, McDonald and Weideman got to the right spot, the ball was kicked to them well enough and they failed to take the mark. 

This often leads to our mids bombing the ball more erratically as the game progresses, because our guys don't take marks when they're kicked to the advantage of our KPFs, so we think may as well try the chaos ball.

When I got home, I watched a bit of the GWS/Brisbane game and the marking on a lead or in the contest in that game was poles apart our game. Frost took a couple of really nice marks and Weideman took one on the wing, but apart from that, very little.

I'd back Weideman for a few more seasons yet, but would I prefer Curnow? Abso-bloody-utely.

 

Today the delivery was mostly fine and if not very good for 3/4's, but for a lot of the year it hasn't been. There's still a huge disconnect with forwards leading far too early and running out of position or long bombs going to smalls when we've got 1, 2 or even 3 big targets.

We've gone too fast or too slow for most of the year instead of getting the lead and kick timed well and giving the forward a run at it. We're also afraid to go to the pockets out in front of forwards which I don't understand. Keeping the inside 50 between the goals is nice if you can but sometimes you have to kick it out to pocket and let the forward take a wide leading mark. We almost seem allergic to that.

Tom and Sam have also done  a poor job of separating and it's on both of them but I have to blame Tom a fair bit as the experienced player he should be organising the forwards. Probably a case of missing Melksham in that role as well.

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3 hours ago, Old Bear said:

Plenty on here want to get rid of Kielty 

But having watched him at Casey he is a much better prospect than Weiderman .He is always praised by the coach for his discipline and team first approach.

His two senior games weren’t too bad and he’s had far less chances than Omac and others

Not sticking up for Weed as he has issues but Keilty wasn’t up to the standard in his 2 games. May return if T Mac’s our for weeks.

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WEEEEEEEEEEDDDD.

Kid is good and still just a ‘kid’.

On track as far as I’m concerned.

Could he show more at this point in his career? Definitely. Has he finished developing into his body and developing as a footballer? Definitely not – long way to go. 

He’ll prove a few people wrong in another year or two.

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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, A F said:

I'm going to write something controversial here. I actually think our delivery to our forwards for most of the year has been fine, but McDonald and Weideman et al have been unable to take strong marks. Today was a really good example of this trend. 5 or 6 times in the first half, McDonald and Weideman got to the right spot, the ball was kicked to them well enough and they failed to take the mark. 

This often leads to our mids bombing the ball more erratically as the game progresses, because our guys don't take marks when they're kicked to the advantage of our KPFs, so we think may as well try the chaos ball.

When I got home, I watched a bit of the GWS/Brisbane game and the marking on a lead or in the contest in that game was poles apart our game. Frost took a couple of really nice marks and Weideman took one on the wing, but apart from that, very little.

I'd back Weideman for a few more seasons yet, but would I prefer Curnow? Abso-bloody-utely.

 

It's more likely the extra fatigue those up the field are placed under when the balls coming in are hardly ever marked and the resulting spilled ball just shoots straight back out, almost a no crumbing forward line not helping here as well AF.  We are also devoid of quality crumbing smalls who can pounce and snap!

In addition we are so inaccurate (in general) that there is little time to recover,  kicking so many behinds with the opp immediately playing on from the square much of the time.  No time to recover, set up and defend effectively.

Also it doesn't help when for example, an experienced player like ANB, takes a mark close to goal then fails to use up the shot clock and take a set shot at the goals.  Instead playing on almost immediately to kick around the corner and missing.  With the resulting kick in coming almost immediately back at our press / defenders and mids.  It's mind numbing non awareness like this that causes extra fatigue and impairs our defender's ability to set up effective defensive structures and maintain the pressure for repeat entries and additional scoreboard pressure.  The opp often scoring immediately on the sling shot as a result and making our previous efforts null and void.

This is as much of a list issue as it is a coaching/training issue.  So may players just "doing" without assessing or seemingly little if any any awareness of playing the percentages and eaking out every little advantage for the benefit of the team.

Huge pre-season fixes on the track and trade table required if we are to improve enough to make finals next year.

Edited by Rusty Nails
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Watched him closely today and it worries me the way he jogs towards contests and doesn’t follow up after the ball has left his area.

Took two marks that stood out to me today. One great mark on the wing and one that fell onto his chest unexpectedly in the forward pocket resulting in a goal.

The problem for me is, he doesn’t clunk the marks in front of goal that he should take when in the right position.

I haven’t given up on him yet, but for gods sake hope he learns to take those marks, stamp some authority on the game and get his set shot goal kicking rhythm back.

His face looks like the weight of the world is on his shoulders...can’t help.

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3 minutes ago, Beetle said:

Watched him closely today and it worries me the way he jogs towards contests and doesn’t follow up after the ball has left his area.

Took two marks that stood out to me today. One great mark on the wing and one that fell onto his chest unexpectedly in the forward pocket resulting in a goal.

The problem for me is, he doesn’t clunk the marks in front of goal that he should take when in the right position.

I haven’t given up on him yet, but for gods sake hope he learns to take those marks, stamp some authority on the game and get his set shot goal kicking rhythm back.

His face looks like the weight of the world is on his shoulders...can’t help.

It will be till the end of the season. He is now the only CPF we have.

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1 minute ago, old dee said:

It will be till the end of the season. He is now the only CPF we have.

Preuss will play forward from here on in.

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1 hour ago, DemonWheels said:

WEEEEEEEEEEDDDD.

Kid is good and still just a ‘kid’.

On track as far as I’m concerned.

Could he show more at this point in his career? Definitely. Has he finished developing into his body and developing as a footballer? Definitely not – long way to go. 

He’ll prove a few people wrong in another year or two.

We haven't got a year or two. Time is now! Cometh the hour cometh the man! after 55 years have we really this time??

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1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

Today the delivery was mostly fine and if not very good for 3/4's, but for a lot of the year it hasn't been. There's still a huge disconnect with forwards leading far too early and running out of position or long bombs going to smalls when we've got 1, 2 or even 3 big targets.

We've gone too fast or too slow for most of the year instead of getting the lead and kick timed well and giving the forward a run at it. We're also afraid to go to the pockets out in front of forwards which I don't understand. Keeping the inside 50 between the goals is nice if you can but sometimes you have to kick it out to pocket and let the forward take a wide leading mark. We almost seem allergic to that.

Tom and Sam have also done  a poor job of separating and it's on both of them but I have to blame Tom a fair bit as the experienced player he should be organising the forwards. Probably a case of missing Melksham in that role as well.

We also kick it to the hotspot 20m out when we have loose players around 40-45m out. Does my head in.

I think Weid will be fine. Might not be number 1 forward but a number 2? I think he needs a bit more strength through the hips and shoulders so he doesn't get pushed off the contest so easily. But that should come with maturity. Had he nailed the sitters today (something that is psychological and also afflicts Petracca) he would've kicked 3 goals and we'd be saying that it was a good day out for him.

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1 minute ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We also kick it to the hotspot 20m out when we have loose players around 40-45m out. Does my head in.

I think Weid will be fine. Might not be number 1 forward but a number 2? I think he needs a bit more strength through the hips and shoulders so he doesn't get pushed off the contest so easily. But that should come with maturity. Had he nailed the sitters today (something that is psychological and also afflicts Petracca) he would've kicked 3 goals and we'd be saying that it was a good day out for him.

Yeah well Doc as the sayin goes "If my aunty had gonads she would be my Uncle" Yep game is played and millimetres and seconds and decisions and deliberations and sheeit just sheer luck and just a modicum of skill are at play here!!

Question and truth of the matter is... ??? Well you tell me!?

Weeds just doesn't do enough! Often enough!

Yeah young player et at yadda yadda, but really what has he done since Finals last year??

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3 hours ago, dieter said:

You hit the nail on the head: he started to come good in his fourth season. 43 goals in a side which was always there or nearabouts is hardly great numbers. Darcy Moore's athleticism saw him run around mostly of the early days in the VFL...

As you say, it's a forum. I just like to keep things in perspective...

 

Moore mostly in the vfl? How do you come to that conclusion? he hardly played a vfl game once he debuted.

Daniher kicked bags of 6 and 5 in his 3rd season. 

Perspective is fine but take off the red and blue glasses.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Beetle said:

Took two marks that stood out to me today. One great mark on the wing and one that fell onto his chest unexpectedly in the forward pocket resulting in a goal.

If you watch that one again, he was blocked by a couple of Carlton defenders & wrestled himself into the best position to take it....

I thought he was ok today.

You rarely have 2 key forwards going at the same time & today was Tommy's day.

Weid took some nice grabs, gave off some good handballs & did his job in the ruck.

My only criticism was his kicking for goal, he's o loverly kick technique wise but wasn't on song today...

He's going alright despite what some are saying...

Edited by rjay
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9 hours ago, dieter said:

I'm not talking blind faith - look at his Finals games against Hawthorn and Geelong when he was playing in a confident and efficient side. Also, he looks pretty committed to the Melbourne Football Club by my reckoning. Who you gonna swap him for? Cam Macarthy????

Conundrums of the situation actually do abound.

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David Parkin on radio. He likes Weed a lot and says our supporters are overly critical of him. I agree, he is a classy player and developing slowly and steadily. The least of our worries. Anyone who has played CHF knows it is an extremely difficult position to play. 

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9 hours ago, Beetle said:

Preuss will play forward from here on in.

Preuss is going to kick 6 goals till 3/4 time?

perhaps 1 or 2 on his good days. The only hope is that his presence at full forward might make it easier for the smaller forwards to feed off the balls he brings to ground. It is time for the FD to show a bit of daring and do something different. 

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11 hours ago, A F said:

I'm going to write something controversial here. I actually think our delivery to our forwards for most of the year has been fine, but McDonald and Weideman et al have been unable to take strong marks.

This is a terrible call that you're clearly only saying so you can bash Weideman a bit more.

We have the worst inside 50 retention rate since Champion Data started recording stats. (39.9%)

AFL average is 46.2%. We have 9 players below that mark.

Our 3 prime movers are 3 of the worst in the league with Gus at 32.4%, Oliver at 28% and Viney at a LEAGUE WORST 21.2%. That means our co-captain, the player most responsible for leading the game plan by example (given Jones is at hb) is delivering the ball effectively inside 50, once in every 5 kicks.

This isn't to say the forwards have no blame at all, but those stats combined with our own coaches talk about "connection" clearly paints a picture that it's not just about McDonald and Weideman being "unable to take strong marks".

I get that we'll have differing outlooks on our problems here, but I'm staggered anyone could think our delivery forward has been fine given the evidence.

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I think Weiderman's development has been stunted by our inept ball movement in 2019. Last year he looked good because we were hitting targets. This year if he leads up the kick goes over his head and if he says deep the ball is kicked to his defenders advantage. But overall I still like him.

He's still light on but his body work has improved this year but will still struggle against the bigger key backs but training against May and Frost will help his 1-1 development. Aside from his 1 howler he's just about our most reliable set shot. His leaping ability will allow him to take Tom Lynch-like pack marks as he continues to get stronger. His contested marking is already pretty good despite being undersized.

Fun fact time here's a list of a few pretty good players averaging fewer contested marks than Sam in 2019: Hipwood, Himmelberg, Finlayson, B Brown, Jenkins. And he's on par with the likes of Hawkins, J Cameron, and J Kennedy (WC). These guys have better numbers than Sam but never underestimate how much delivery makes forwards look better. 

Most of what he does he does well. If we were competing for finals I'd be worried. But we're well out of that race so just let the kid play. With Tom's injury he'll have a big test the next few weeks. 

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15 hours ago, Sigil said:

The Weed is still going to take time, but it's a bit of a worry.

Would everyone be so worried tho if we didn't kick the ball over his [censored] head all the time and he was averaging another goal a game this year?

He runs under the ball I reckon.

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13 minutes ago, loges said:

He runs under the ball I reckon.

Yes he does and he does it every week

Poor judgement and reading of the flight or perhaps isn't starting in the right spots

Needs to address this urgently

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31 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

This is a terrible call that you're clearly only saying so you can bash Weideman a bit more.

We have the worst inside 50 retention rate since Champion Data started recording stats. (39.9%)

AFL average is 46.2%. We have 9 players below that mark.

Our 3 prime movers are 3 of the worst in the league with Gus at 32.4%, Oliver at 28% and Viney at a LEAGUE WORST 21.2%. That means our co-captain, the player most responsible for leading the game plan by example (given Jones is at hb) is delivering the ball effectively inside 50, once in every 5 kicks.

This isn't to say the forwards have no blame at all, but those stats combined with our own coaches talk about "connection" clearly paints a picture that it's not just about McDonald and Weideman being "unable to take strong marks".

I get that we'll have differing outlooks on our problems here, but I'm staggered anyone could think our delivery forward has been fine given the evidence.

Where am I bashing Weideman?

Don't get me wrong. A lot of our forward entries have been abysmal, but so much of our good work has seen our KPFs lead under the ball or flat-hand it.

When Weideman attacks the contest he looks a million dollars. The mark on the wing yesterday and his first quarter against Geelong in the Elimination Final show his potential once he has the confidence to fly at the ball. In time, I believe he will. This is what Curnow has on him right now. He throws himself at contests and ironically this can lead to more injuries, but makes him at this stage far more dynamic.

I've been critical of Clarry's forward entries in particular this year because he is just about our best kick, but bombs far too often.

Game style and coaching will and should change this.

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10 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

 

Moore mostly in the vfl? How do you come to that conclusion? he hardly played a vfl game once he debuted.

Daniher kicked bags of 6 and 5 in his 3rd season. 

Perspective is fine but take off the red and blue glasses.

Darcy Moore: hardly stunning figures, my boy,

Statistics are correct to the end of the 2018 season[6]
Legend
 G  Goals  B  Behinds  K  Kicks  H  Handballs  D  Disposals  M  Marks  T  Tackles
Season Team No. Games G B K H D M T G B K H D M T
Totals Averages (per game)
Career 54 61 36 333 183 516 260 93 1.1 0.7 6.2 3.4 9.6 4.8 1.7
2015 Collingwood 30 9 9 3 49 32 81 29 16 1.0 0.3 5.4 3.6 9.0 3.2 1.8
2016 Collingwood 30 17 24 14 95 59 154 77 29 1.4 0.8 5.6 3.5 9.1 4.5 1.7
2017 Collingwood 30 21 25 19 152 68 220 125 40 1.2 0.9 7.2 3.2 10.5 6.0 1.9
2018 Collingwood 30 7 3 0 37 24 61 29 8 0.4 0.0 5.3 3.4 8.7 4.1 1.1

References

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I reckon he is almost there, just needs to hang onto a couple more marks and kick those easy goals.  He bashes the contest when he can't mark it and has shown he can take a good high contested mark.  One more pre-season and he will be a 30 goal a year forward

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