Boot Camp 2017 cancelled by Players

[Umpire Please 120]

8 hours ago, praha said:

I don't care that it was cancelled or the reason for it, but again i think this is just amateur hour from the media department. They don't owe the fans or media any reasoning for it. I don't think many people would have even realised if nothing was said. At the most all they had to say was "We've cancelled the camp to focus on a different training approach". Even that is too much because it creates questions. 

Had nothing been said, would people have even cared? Or realised?

Now we're once again the subject of media and fan ridicule. 

Regardless of the legitimacy of the reasoning behind it, and it does some like a reasonable decision to make, you simply can't ignore that to the general football world, it doesn't look good.

The club's PR and media department is just full of nuffies. This is bad PR. And we wonder why we struggle for sponsors.

Maybe we should approach ENDOTA Spa as sponsers for next season?? What a pack of soft c@$ks. I wonder how many of our players will be reported for retaliating from the sledging they will get from the opposition players. Not sure we should be calling ourselves the Demons any more.

[sisso 2,580]

Who cares: none of this is going to mean jack when the season starts

[Satyriconhome 10,737]

1 hour ago, Clint Bizkit said:

Tyson’s knee is why.

I said this at the time, but no one listened.

Clint, Tyson was carrying that knee issue from GWS days, it was weakened and managed,;unfortunately he did more damage at the camp

Could be one of the concerns, but you can injure yourself jogging around Goschs

Think main issue is loss of conditioning after all the work put in upto now

6 hours ago, Drunkn167 said:

Okay what the hell is all this "Goodwin has lost the players" talk?!?!? What are any of you basing this on???

The players all love and respect the ever living s*** out of him, both as a player and a coach.

I laid out the facts of what happened and at the start of the Christmas break this will all be forgotten by the Players and Coaches.

You all need to relax guys.

 

I have warned you previously D, a misplaced word on here can generate 15 pages

 

 

[dee-tox 4,835]

Obvious breach of trust.

The fact that it has been made public is embarrassing.

Getting the AFLPA involved tells me this is not a storm in a tea cup and there are legacy issues.

Player empowerment can be a good thing but not at the expense of the direction the club wants to go.

Football clubs are more successful with 100 percent buy in.

[binman 42,715]

8 hours ago, rjay said:

 

If only the EFC players had of whinged to their union...

They should raised their concerns wit the aflpa. If they had done so they may have saved tbemselves and their club a greal deal of grief - not to mention many millions in legal fees

Edited December 14, 2017 by binman

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

23 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Clint, Tyson was carrying that knee issue from GWS days, it was weakened and managed,;unfortunately he did more damage at the camp

Could be one of the concerns, but you can injure yourself jogging around Goschs

Think main issue is loss of conditioning after all the work put in upto now

Stop derailing the thread with irrelevant information.

This is about why a camp got cancelled, nothing to do with Dom Tyson having a sore knee at GWS.

Mods, please delete his post.

[rjay 24,893]

29 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Clint, Tyson was carrying that knee issue from GWS days, it was weakened and managed,;unfortunately he did more damage at the camp

Could be one of the concerns, but you can injure yourself jogging around Goschs

Think main issue is loss of conditioning after all the work put in upto now

I have warned you previously D, a misplaced word on here can generate 15 pages

 

 

Goodwin alluded to the concern when he mentioned medical support...the whole thing was poorly run. You don’t put an elite team in the hands of amateurs.

[jackaub 1,402]

Had my normal Friday coffee with work collegues

I didnt know anything about this .Carlton supporter  ,one of the grouop  brought up the issue.

How embarrassing? Not that it happened for what ever reason good bad or what ever

The fact that it was made public continues the perception that the club and the players are soft and mentally weak.

This club should learn how to manage situations like this.

It is hard to understand how this was so badly handled. Shows  the club in a very poor light and is hard to defend

 

[Deemania since 56 6,609]

12 hours ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

They’ve also pulled out of playing round 1 because they don’t want to risk injury going into round 2.

It is good that player opinions and reasons are heard. The concept of 'boot camp' is a little alien to Aussies. Football training has evolved for over a century, now. Surely, it is now well-refined and suitable for readiness to play and prepare,  and develop for our game - in all regards. The para-military focus does not necessarily add to these tenets of our sport. Given the excellent photo and written coverage of MFC pre-season training that has been displayed on this site by supporters, it seems as if our conventional approaches to training for the up-coming season are well underway and remain highly refined with specific outcomes in mind. We have direct evidence of team members managing their own training and development - seen in their conditioning across the season break and in particular player improvements in training drills and skills since then. Cancelling the boot camp programme will save our Club many thousands of dollars, too. This is an important consideration for Members.

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

It's been stated that " a quiet number of players" raised concerns about the camp.

I would like to know if there were players that were keen to participate in the camp or were there players that raised the issue speaking on behalf of the whole list?

 

 

[Trisul 664]

Goodwin from 8:15 at the B&F appeared to be the FD view. 

The players view was that they knew their conditioning, loads and potential for injury better than the FD.

[jnrmac 20,055]

Hmmm doesn't smell right. Looks weak regardless of the actual circumstances

[Lucifers Hero 39,632]

The boot camps haven't caused problems for our Gosch's neighbours.  Storm have managed a few minor premierships/flags. 

2013 article: https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/nrl/melbourne-storm-players-endure-brutal-boot-camp/news-story/2df448b8c2f07ff0259a074426f8962c

Brutal is an understatement!  No complaints from Storm players. 

2016 article: https://www.foxsports.com.au/nrl/nrl-premiership/teams/storm/inside-craig-bellamys-infamous-preseason-boot-camp-for-melbourne-storm-recruits/news-story/3dc8c03c030dda05e19779e6312baf9b

Whatever happened something went wrong for us last year.  Did we chat with Bellamy/Storm before deciding to run it again this year?  Did we canvas our leadership group about running it again? 

 

The merits of the camp aside, the outside interpretation is again:  'mentally weak'.   The players have taken a stand.  Good on them.  But lets not go missing or fading out of games.   The days of picking and choosing need to end. 

[hemingway 7,615]

Not a big deal I would have thought.

I think the coaching staff's idea of a boot camp was misguided. And the timing, just before Christmas, after all the work on the track in the heat, was also a mistake. 

The value of boot camps is debatable. There is a lot of psycho babble surrounding the concept. A whole industry has grown up promoted by a range of people with varying degrees of competency.  Many of the so called instructors are earnest, enthusiastic and believe in the benefits, but they are not always the smartest folk going around, certainly not in terms of physical conditioning and psychological expertise. And they do risk injury. Particularly, when you take finely tuned athletes out of their normal training routines and training environments. 

What is their purpose?

They are designed to promote fitness, promote team bonding and team work, test individuals resilience in testing conditions, and so the list of supposed benefits goes on. 

Personally, I think their value is very limited. It may be of benefit for some but damaging for others. For some, boot camps pose more risk than benefit. They do not suit all people. 

Professional athletes/footballers and support start should be able to develop and maintain conditioning without boot camps. Several days at a boot camp is not going to achieve anything in the long term. Physical conditioning is a long-term and on-going requirement.

I find it hard to believe that individually and collectively, professional athletes/footballers need any additional motivation to succeed. It comes from within each individual, and in team sports, its not until you get a group of self-motivated athletes that are all driven to succeed that you improve and achieve team success. 

Scheduling a boot camp in the first place and just before Christmas seems unwise.

However, canceling the affair given player feedback, seems sensible and an exercise in good judgement not a reflection of weakness or being soft. .  

[Guest]

This is interesting and somewhat concerning.

The thing that is concerning is that this was leaked. Leaking usually indicates discontent in the ranks, a level of organizational chaos and lack of faith in the leader. Look at the Trump White House. Look at the Neeld era.

We aren’t close to the onslaught of weekly anecdotes of 2012-13 when we would hear about some random tidbit which cast the club in a horrible light. This may be the work of a single malcontent. I have a feeling I know what it is over. I will say that it was a certain personnel decision from the recent past that played out with ever so convenient leaks punctuating it. 

As for the cancellation, some are saying that it’s Bailey all over again. I would ask them to recall the Neeld era. I am loathe to raise him twice in the same post but it is relevant. At the time, he tried the my way or the highway approach which many (myself included) applauded. How wrong we were. 

You can’t berate or bludgeon your way to respect as a coach. You need to take your players with you and you need to empower them. Roosy always said that players have to be the ones to take responsibility for the direction of the team. Whether this is the right direction or not is up to debate.

Personally, if we had this camp last year and it led to injuries then shouldn’t it be reviewed? Furthermore, if the idea is to ‘up the ante’, then this can be counterproductive.

I remember Jimma complaining in his first autobiography about the 1992 preseason training regime where the players were pushed too hard and too early. They were fully fit by January and as a result had well and truly lost their appetite for the real stuff come the season proper. Whatever Jimmy was, no one could ever question his determination or guts, so this can show that ‘tough’ preseason training regimes can be misguided.

 

[sue 9,099]

Agree Ernest.  Seems to me that the main supposed benefit of these boot camps is building team spirit and resilience. Based on last year's performance boot camps don't work for us.    Why repeat it?

Nevertheless it seems it was not well handled. But will be forgotten by Xmas.  If other teams sledge us about it during games, then it's up to the players to respond appropriately.  If you can be affected by sledging then you are mentally weak with or without boot camps.

Edited December 14, 2017 by sue

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

The issue (despite what some people who like to spread fake news on here say) is that when Tyson injured his knee, he felt that there was insufficient resources and qualified staff to assist and treat him.

There was talk of getting the AFLPA involved at the time.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Clint Bizkit

[george_on_the_outer 7,582]

Boot camps are useful for SAS type training.  They are designed for physical toughness, an attribute football players already have. They are designed not to get the right people, but to eliminate those who aren't physically able to in the situations that the SAS are required to perform.  The mental aspect is a bonus....if it ever occurs!

There is no correlation between that scenario and a football side.  We want ALL players to get through the preparation of pre-season, uninjured and un-broken.  Denying sleep and proper eating habits goes against everything that the conditioning and dietary staff are trying to achieve. 

There are other ways to improve mental toughness. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by george_on_the_outer

[Gator 17,309]

Vineytime posted this after last year's camp.

- Salem badly concussed at the commando style camp

- Tyson injured his knee quite badly and will miss a large chunk of pre season training

- Hibberd injured knee also, not as severe as Tyson. 

It's little wonder the players had reservations, especially as there were reports their recovery took a number of days post the camp.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

9 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Vineytime posted this after last year's camp.

- Salem badly concussed at the commando style camp

- Tyson injured his knee quite badly and will miss a large chunk of pre season training

- Hibberd injured knee also, not as severe as Tyson. 

It's little wonder the players had reservations, especially as there were reports their recovery took a number of days post the camp.

Tyson had a sore knee at GWS, don't you know anything!

[old55 23,441]

I think it is an issue because it highlights lack of early communication between the FD and the players.

The outcome is not ideal because it indicates that the players feel that the FD weren't acting in their best interests with the Boot Camp and the FD was unable to make sufficient changes or assurances to convince them otherwise.

There is likely to be a cost associated with late cancellation too.

Those posting that it's a PR failure because it has been reported in the media are misguided, there's 100s of AFL reporters and there's nothing to report on at the moment.  It would have got out one way or another and it's far better for the club to try to control the message. 

[Sir Why You Little 36,990]

12 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Classic SWYL.

Forget the hard yards, effort etc that they have been putting into the real stuff so far this pre-season.  The players want to look after themselves after the camp bombed last year and now all of a sudden Goodwin has potentially 'lost the playing group.'

Merry Christmas one and all!

The players gave up a finals berth in 2017 because they were not mentally tough enough 

and now they tell the senior coach how training should be formulated....

They maybe right or wrong, but i have doubts about Goodwin as a Long term Senior Coach if things like this occur

Edited December 15, 2017 by Sir Why You Little

[poita 3,898]

Good to see that the club is as dysfunctional as it has ever been. Why was there such a difference in opinion as to the value of the camp?

Surely the various parties could have gotten together after round 23 to work out a plan of attack for the off season. If the coach believes the camp is of significant value, surely he has the right to make it happen. If the players don't like aspects of it, then negotiate an alternative. Don't just scrap the whole thing.

This playing group is still pissweak when the pressure is on. Anything that aims to fix that problem is worth investigating, even if there are some negative consequences.

[Ethan Tremblay 30,828]

Jack Watts would have done the boot camp. 

[KingDingAling 3,752]

To go or not to go I couldn't care less. The players should be able to get fit enough in any place - SAS camp or at Casey. So from that point of view I don't care. But, this does not look good for Goodwin. Very bad look and a terrible start to the year for the coach. On face value it would be hard to argue otherwise that our players do not trust the football department.