Lack of Finals = Failed Season?

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

Just wanted some general thoughts around whether we all had expectations at the start of the year about whether we were a finals bound team for 2017 or not.

I want to remove the commentary around disappointing losses (as I believe all clubs experience those) and just because we have been in the 8, it doesn't  mean that the team should stay there.

I for one think 2017 has been a significant improvement in game style, personnel and ladder position. 

Things that need immediate attention is outside run - mind you - Simon has spoken about building from the contest out - which the team has in spades - perhaps this trade period is where we try to accumulate a few outside runners with foot skills.

Wins against the odds have been great and naturally against significantly weaker sides disappointing - so from a mindset (or perhaps a coaching perspective) this needs to needs to be remedied.

The only other area that needs addressing (leaving aside,  the option for players to 'grow' in experience and skill level) would be forward line structure/entry into the F50. Whether that is strategy or personnel I am not sure.

 

 

[Bates Mate 4,487]

We have improved alot and showed at times we can play as well as anyone.

The losses to low ranked teams like North , Freo and Hawthorn in particular show that we are not ready to sustain a high level , which I think is mental more than anything. Given our capability and that we have been in the eight with winnable games for the best part of the second 1/2 half of the year if we don't make it I would deem the season a failure

Win the last 3 we are in and we should based on our capability , if we cant we dont make it and we don't deserve to 

  

[Bay Riffin 1,474]

1 minute ago, Danelska said:

Just wanted some general thoughts around whether we all had expectations at the start of the year about whether we were a finals bound team for 2017 or not.

I want to remove the commentary around disappointing losses (as I believe all clubs experience those) and just because we have been in the 8, it doesn't  mean that the team should stay there.

I for one think 2017 has been a significant improvement in game style, personnel and ladder position. 

Things that need immediate attention is outside run - mind you - Simon has spoken about building from the contest out - which the team has in spades - perhaps this trade period is where we try to accumulate a few outside runners with foot skills.

Wins against the odds have been great and naturally against significantly weaker sides disappointing - so from a mindset (or perhaps a coaching perspective) this needs to needs to be remedied.

The only other area that needs addressing (leaving aside,  the option for players to 'grow' in experience and skill level) would be forward line structure/entry into the F50. Whether that is strategy or personnel I am not sure.

 

 

if we fall away under the expectation now it would be bitterly disappointing. As Goodwin says its where you finish round 23.

We basically have everyone but Hogan up and running so should be putting sides to the sword.

if we missed out on percentage but bounced back I could live with that though. if we don't play attacking hard footy and give it a massive crack I will be disappointed.

[Salems Lot 2,535]

For me, 12-13 wins was always what we should have been aiming for.  At the moment that is still achievable.  My only concern is that we appear to have run out of steam a tad.  Injuries and youth are affecting us badly.  Keep going boys!!

[pineapple dee 2,892]

It would be a shallow assessment to say  No Finals= Failed Season. Disappointing to miss after sustained presence in the 8 but massive positives all through the club. This club is going places and this season will be appreciated for what it is.

Patience Grasshopper !!!!!!!!!

[Lord Travis 10,730]

If we don't make finals then this season a failure. This is unarguable.

In 2016 we finished on the cusp of the 8 and Roos handed Goodwin a top 8 quality list with good support around him. Anything other than making the 8 and playing finals means we have stagnated or gone backwards. We all know it's been 11 years without finals at this stage, which is pathetic.  No other club has been this poor for decades. Even teams like Carlton, Richmond, Saints etc. have all made finals a few times in the past decade. The only other team not to have a finals appearance in the past 11 years is Gold Coast, and they've only existed 5-6 years and are deemed a failure at the point. Jesus since we last played finals over half my family has died, I've completed a University degree, I've lived overseas for two years, I've bought my first property, sold my first property, bought my second property, had 3 long term girlfriends, got engaged, got married, have a kid on the way etc. The fact I've been able to tick off so many of the key events in an adult life since we last played finals is [censored]. It makes me furious at the club and the AFL. 

Disregarding the 11 years missing, our current "rebuild" started with Roos, so we are now in year 4 of a rebuild. To not be able to turn it around in this time is a failure. If we don't make it this year, and somehow don't next year too, then that's 5 years of rebuild with no success, despite landing Paul Roos and him cleaning the place out to start us fresh. That is Terry Wallace Richmond level failure. Thank god we are now sound off-field!

We now sit at the exact same spot we were last year. 10 wins, and a few weeks to go to win the final matches and earn a finals place. Last year we folded like an accordion and lost to bottom 4 placed Carlton and then got done by 100+ by Geelong. This year, we are in the same place but with an easier run, playing 3 bottom 8 teams. If we stuff up again, we have not improved on last year, despite having an easier draw. If anything, that means we have gone backwards due to the same result from an easier draw. 

Reality is we probably should have done better this year at this stage. Our second half of the season has been poor. We have won two matches by more than 8 points, and the rest we either scraped over the line or lost. While it was nice to win some of those close ones, it goes to show we weren't in control and it could have just as easily gone the other way. This past 6 weeks our contested ball, clearances, and scoring have all dropped off massively. Statistically we are a bottom 4 team over the past 6 weeks. When we were in a position to challenge for a top 4 place, we crumbed. Yes, we have had injuries, but the team we fielded on the weekend was probably our strongest for the year and yet it did not give a yelp and had 10 goals in a row kicked against us. Unacceptable. Until we can instil some mental toughness and some leadership into this team, we will continue to fail.

I appreciate we have shown improvement at times this year, but fact is we are in the exact same spot as last year and the exact same questions regarding lack of leadership and lack of mental toughness are being asked. To me that says we have not really improved. Don't get me wrong, I'll be stoked if we scrape into finals, purely because I have invested countless hours and hard earned dollars into this club over decades of my life, and its been so long since I've seen us play finals that even a token appearance will appease me. Says a lot about how poor this club has been, and how starved for any semblance of success us supporters really are.

I hope like hell we can manage to win the last 3 and play finals. Us members and supporters deserve to see that after all this time. It's time the players and club stood up instead of falling over again.

[DeeWiz 296]

2014: 4 wins

2015: 7 wins

2016: 10 wins

Going by this logical progression, I expected 2017 to be 13 wins.

Still achievable at this stage, but finishing the season with 12-13 wins is basically where I think we are right now. If that means missing the finals, I wouldn't necessarily call it "failure". Disappointing, yes.

Next season I would expect: Number of Wins in 2018 = Number of Wins in 2017 + 3

Mind you, if we finish with 10-11 wins I think that would constitute a failure as it completely ruins my formula.

[deejammin' 2,370]

I understand the frustration many others are expressing at the moment. The reality is MFC has played well this year and given us hope of finals and if not for a few close losses we could be booking our tickets now. Even more frustrating is that in most of these games we've led late into the last quarter only to see it slip away. 

However, while for all of us hope has led to our expectations getting higher and higher and the disappointment that comes when we fall short is tough to take, to this point in the season we have clearly improved.

With three rounds left our percentage is better, our ladder position is better and looking at our losses we have not only been far closer but in our top 8 losses last year we were nowhere near in the last quarter whereas this year in all but our top three losses (6/9) we have led or been even in the last quarter. This is a mark of a far more competitive and consistent team, particularly given that our injuries in 2017 have been far worse, to more important players than 2016. And given that 2017 is a far closer year across the competition.

2017

Won 10 Lost 9 104.8%

Ladder Position 10

2016

Won 10 Lost 12 97.6%

Ladder Position 11

Losing margin (largest - smallest)

2016

Geelong 111pts

Sydney 55pts

Port 45pts

St Kilda 39pts

St Kilda 36pts

Bulldogs 32pts

Adelaide 22pts

Carlton 20pts

Hawthorn 18pts

Essendon 13pts

West Coast 6pts

North 5pts

2017

Crows by 46pts

Giants by 35pts

Swans by 35pts

Geelong by 29pts

North by 14pts

Tigers by 13pts

North by 4pts

Hawthorn by 3pts

Freo by 2pts

No doubt the last few weeks have left us gutted, and a pessimist would say we can still go backwards and not have improved if we lose our last 3 games. 

But to this point in the year we have clearly improved in almost every category, have been far more competitive across the board despite considerably more adversity this year and have a chance to go to the finals if we can beat the Saints this week.

The last two weeks were frustrating, disappointing and worrying but not the end of our season. Back the boys in! Let's smash those Saints and get back on track!!

Edited August 7, 2017 by deejammin'

[faultydet 7,594]

6 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

If we don't make finals then this season a failure. This is unarguable.

In 2016 we finished on the cusp of the 8 and Roos handed Goodwin a top 8 quality list with good support around him. Anything other than making the 8 and playing finals means we have stagnated or gone backwards. We all know it's been 11 years without finals at this stage, which is pathetic.  No other club has been this poor for decades. Even teams like Carlton, Richmond, Saints etc. have all made finals a few times in the past decade. The only other team not to have a finals appearance in the past 11 years is Gold Coast, and they've only existed 5-6 years and are deemed a failure at the point. Jesus since we last played finals over half my family has died, I've completed a University degree, I've lived overseas for two years, I've bought my first property, sold my first property, bought my second property, had 3 long term girlfriends, got engaged, got married, have a kid on the way etc. The fact I've been able to tick off so many of the key events in an adult life since we last played finals is [censored]. It makes me furious at the club and the AFL. 

Disregarding the 11 years missing, our current "rebuild" started with Roos, so we are now in year 4 of a rebuild. To not be able to turn it around in this time is a failure. If we don't make it this year, and somehow don't next year too, then that's 5 years of rebuild with no success, despite landing Paul Roos and him cleaning the place out to start us fresh. That is Terry Wallace Richmond level failure. Thank god we are now sound off-field!

We now sit at the exact same spot we were last year. 10 wins, and a few weeks to go to win the final matches and earn a finals place. Last year we folded like an accordion and lost to bottom 4 placed Carlton and then got done by 100+ by Geelong. This year, we are in the same place but with an easier run, playing 3 bottom 8 teams. If we stuff up again, we have not improved on last year, despite having an easier draw. If anything, that means we have gone backwards due to the same result from an easier draw. 

Reality is we probably should have done better this year at this stage. Our second half of the season has been poor. We have won two matches by more than 8 points, and the rest we either scraped over the line or lost. While it was nice to win some of those close ones, it goes to show we weren't in control and it could have just as easily gone the other way. This past 6 weeks our contested ball, clearances, and scoring have all dropped off massively. Statistically we are a bottom 4 team over the past 6 weeks. When we were in a position to challenge for a top 4 place, we crumbed. Yes, we have had injuries, but the team we fielded on the weekend was probably our strongest for the year and yet it did not give a yelp and had 10 goals in a row kicked against us. Unacceptable. Until we can instil some mental toughness and some leadership into this team, we will continue to fail.

 

My thoughts are similar, although we have not been smashed by 100 this year.

A capitulation from here would be unforgivable, with the list we have at our disposal.

We have imported elite "leadership", and our own boys are growing up.

The time for finals is now.

Edited August 7, 2017 by faultydet

[brendan 3,437]

Not a failure if we don't make it, next year is a different story it's finals or bust, if we had a decent run with injuries this year probably would be hovering around top 4 and I think those 3 six day breaks destroyed us, we lost our 2 most important players for massive chunks in gawn and hogan any other club would have failed if they had our luck with injuries, if we can have a decent run at it next year and with some new additions I would be backing us in to finish pretty high up

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

Take the opportunity when it arises. Not wait for next season. 

[Demonsone 2,037]

33 minutes ago, DeeWiz said:

2014: 4 wins

2015: 7 wins

2016: 10 wins

Going by this logical progression, I expected 2017 to be 13 wins.

Still achievable at this stage, but finishing the season with 12-13 wins is basically where I think we are right now. If that means missing the finals, I wouldn't necessarily call it "failure". Disappointing, yes.

Next season I would expect: Number of Wins in 2018 = Number of Wins in 2017 + 3

Mind you, if we finish with 10-11 wins I think that would constitute a failure as it completely ruins my formula.

Luv your rational!

Seriously if we don't play finals its  a failure....

If we finish on 12 wins & miss out on % its an improvement  over 2016 on wins..

Reality is, its a very even comp & its possible  that teams on the ladder from 7-11 may be on 12 wins and a lot of teams have lost close ones not just us!

Edited August 7, 2017 by Hogan2014

[layzie 33,805]

At the start of the season I wanted to aim for finals. It seemed like a goal that was realistic but with the right level of loftiness that could stretch us at the same time. There's no doubt that we've shown improvement, none at all. And for where this list is at experience wise you would be stoked with how far we have come.

However with the position we have gotten into at this point of the season I do think missing the 8 would be a slight disappointment. There is stuff here that can't be measured on paper. Like the fact that we have a glass ceiling to break through, the valve that will be released when we do actually make finals can't be underestimated.

For me the goalposts never changed since the start of the year. Aim for finals. Whether it was times when we lost to Hawthorn, North or Freo or when we'd get a great win over Adelaide or West Coast and people started getting giddy about us talking up top 4 or even 2. It never changed for me. I think we're a decent side, a top 8 side even but that is it. We have a bit of a way to go.

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

If we miss the final 8 after Round 23 the season is a Failure and must be treated as such by all within the club. 

We simply must not accept excuses and improve the list

If Goodwin wants to be a long time coach he has to pull out all stops now. 

[jnrmac 20,065]

15 minutes ago, DeeWiz said:

2014: 4 wins

2015: 7 wins

2016: 10 wins

Going by this logical progression, I expected 2017 to be 13 wins.

Still achievable at this stage, but finishing the season with 12-13 wins is basically where I think we are right now. If that means missing the finals, I wouldn't necessarily call it "failure". Disappointing, yes.

Next season I would expect: Number of Wins in 2018 = Number of Wins in 2017 + 3

Mind you, if we finish with 10-11 wins I think that would constitute a failure as it completely ruins my formula.

There is no logic to this.

You expect 28 wins by 2023 and 31 wins by 2024?

[jnrmac 20,065]

2 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

If we miss the final 8 after Round 23 the season is a Failure and must be treated as such by all within the club. 

We simply must not accept excuses and improve the list

If Goodwin wants to be a long time coach he has to pull out all stops now. 

Roos and Jackson planned to make finals in 2016. 

[DubDee 25,868]

of course it is a failure if we do not make the finals this year, I didn't think this would be up for debate

especially if we see teams of the calibre of Essendon or WC making it.

losses to bottom 4 teams have to stop and if we accept this we won't improve

[jnrmac 20,065]

24 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

If we don't make finals then this season a failure. This is unarguable.

This past 6 weeks our contested ball, clearances, and scoring have all dropped off massively. Statistically we are a bottom 4 team over the past 6 weeks. When we were in a position to challenge for a top 4 place, we crumbed. Yes, we have had injuries, but the team we fielded on the weekend was probably our strongest for the year and yet it did not give a yelp and had 10 goals in a row kicked against us. Unacceptable. Until we can instil some mental toughness and some leadership into this team, we will continue to fail.

We played better when our team was decimated by injury

 

[Wells 11 5,401]

Tricky to know. At 10-7 given so many key  injuries we were way ahead of where I thought we would be. If we finish at 11-11 ( as I think we may) I think the whole club will feel a bit mixed. Not a definite bust . How could it be with the way we've played for so much of the season and some top class wins on the road over top sides. But not a real big tick either. How could we leave satisfied having given up a real show at final shot. Possibly a top 4 spot. 

Overall even if we do end up 11 -11 I think its still at least a c ... Perhaps even a B-. Given us a lot of to look forward to.

The trouble is SO much can change in one off season these days. Eg if hawks grab dusty and Kelly for example. Or if 2 big stars leave or arrive. Its not just a gradual progression as it might have been in the past. Trading or holding in the off season can alter trajectories. 

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

4 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Roos and Jackson planned to make finals in 2016. 

Yes they did...

[david_neitz_is_my_dad 4,083]

Yes if anyone thinks otherwise go support Carlton 

[PaulRB 6,363]

We are undoubtedly improving, will most likely finish 12-13 wins so on that metric, tick.

Missing finals would be a bummer and undoubtedly unacceptable. 

However, this year has thrown up many more challenges to the group than previous years (injuries to Maxy, Hogan, Jones, etc...) and is the first year of Goodwin's tenure. So we are developing and building maturity and resilience.

In addition to injuries to critical players we've had several mature players who'd I'd hoped would have pushed us higher, namely Kent and Watts, who have languished, been injured, languished. On the bright side, players like Hannon and Maynard stepping into the team with aggression and poise is heartening. 

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

3 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

Tricky to know. At 10-7 given so many key  injuries we were way ahead of where I thought we would be. If we finish at 11-11 ( as I think we may) I think the whole club will feel a bit mixed. Not a definite bust . How could it be with the way we've played for so much of the season and some top class wins on the road over top sides. But not a real big tick either. How could we leave satisfied having given up a real show at final shot. Possibly a top 4 spot. 

Overall even if we do end up 11 -11 I think its still at least a c ... Perhaps even a B-. Given us a lot of to look forward to.

The trouble is SO much can change in one off season these days. Eg if hawks grab dusty and Kelly for example. Or if 2 big stars leave or arrive. Its not just a gradual progression as it might have been in the past. Trading or holding in the off season can alter trajectories. 

Missing the Finals cannot be seen as a C+ or B- year

People are still far too nice on this club

Norm Smith would never have accepted mediocrity..

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

Just on a side note

12 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

We are undoubtedly improving, will most likely finish 12-13 wins so on that metric, tick.

Missing finals would be a bummer and undoubtedly unacceptable. 

However, this year has thrown up many more challenges to the group than previous years (injuries to Maxy, Hogan, Jones, etc...) and is the first year of Goodwin's tenure. So we are developing and building maturity and resilience.

In addition to injuries to critical players we've had several mature players who'd I'd hoped would have pushed us higher, namely Kent and Watts, who have languished, been injured, languished. On the bright side, players like Hannon and Maynard stepping into the team with aggression and poise is heartening. 

 

I'm going to derail my on thread - [censored] I hate the term unacceptable - and particularly coaches who use it post a massive loss. It's as hollow as David Warner having a media conference to state that he is going to take responsibility for clocking Root - does merely saying taking responsibility actually mean taking responsibility. 

Irrespective of performing good or not good  - teams are always striving for more...by stating that something is unacceptable behaviourally is window dressing for the spectators to reduce a bit of anger and sadness

Edited August 7, 2017 by Danelska

[leave it to deever 17,511]

I didnt really expect us to play finals this year especially after the freo loss.

After a few big wins away, I really thought we were a good chance despite being decimated by injuries.

I hope we finish with 12 wins.

I hope even more we address the issue of another big forward as Pedo, weid and Watts are not the answer.Or at least another Key postion player. Another great quality mid as Trac is not one and JOnes is getting older.