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CHANGES: Rd 22 vs Carlton



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4 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Agree on a lot of this, but if we drop both Spargo and Melksham and replace them with a key forward and panic kicker you can forget us taking any marks inside 50.

They took 4 between them, not exactly a huge number to replace. 

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16 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

 

Would it make any difference if I was?

Yes, he seemed to really roam around and cover lots of ground, unfortunately that doesn't mean he played an "immense" game. And yes, I remember him being down the Collingwood end and being done for holding the ball, he had a fair few moments like that that cost us.

6 kicks is not what you want from your lone full forward either, and he made way too many errors - 5 turnovers, 4 clangers.

7 pressure acts and 0 tackles is really poor too given there would have been focus on our forward pressure.

Brown needs a second tall to make the forward line work more efficiently IMO, so I don't 100% put the blame on him, but geez if that is what you consider an "immense" game from a full forward then I would raise the bar if I was you.

It wasn't an immense game by Brown as you pointed out. I certainly thought it was one of his better games he's had for a bit but.

Also, since when is how many kicks you get in a game a key indicator of how you performed on the day, especially for a full forward? In fact, I bet coaches don't put a huge emphasis on how many kicks a full forward should get.

I mean even pressure acts for key forwards, is that really another key indicator? Some of the best forwards in the game right now are rated 'below average' for pressure acts.

Charlie Curnow

Tom Hawkins

Jeremy Cameron

Harry McKay.

All 4 players, including Ben Brown are rated 'below average' in the AFL for pressure acts and they have the exact same numbers or similar. 

Either your bar is set way too high or you're just now judging his performance unfairly and looking at nitpicking the smaller things when possible.

In comparison to some individual performance this weekend from a stats point of view and I'll add the pressure acts as well.

Ben Brown: 6 kick 7 marks, 3 which were contest marks, 7 pressure acts 0 tackles and kicked 2.1

Last night

Tom Hawkins: 7 kicks last nigh, 5 marks, 1 contested mark only, 6 pressure acts, 0 tackles and kicked 3.1. 

Jeremy Cameron: 10 kicks, 2 pressure acts, 4 marks and 0 contested marks, 1 tackle and kicked 2.1

I reckon Chris Scott would still be fairly happy on their performances. So in comparison, Benny Brown had a good game on Friday night.

Do I think Goody is using him to his strengths? no I don't. Another genuine key forward is needed for the chop out and I think we missed the opportunity to bring JVR in a few backs back to build cohesion. 

 

Edited by dazzledavey36
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There is only one logical reason for Smith training with forwards. Only a couple of cm shorter than van Rooyan so in he comes this week or next. Out goes … um…. Someone.

Possibly Harmes for Sparrow but that mucks up the all new ‘Gus in the Middle’ show which is rating well.

The FD doesn’t do mass changes so that would be about it.

Looking forward to smashing the Pies in the first final.

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12 minutes ago, Lil_red_fire_engine said:

Accepting we wont make 4 changes at this time of year but.

In: Bowey, JVR, Harmes, Chandler

Out: Hunt, Melksham, Sparrow, Spargo

ANB stays in?  One good goal in the last. New name is “Captain fumbles “ and he often turns back into trouble. He definitely should be on the block as should Sparrow.  Spargo earned a reprieve by his Freo outing. 
 

outs : Sparrow ANB Melksham 

In:  JVR, Harmes, Chandler

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Although Smith is the right person to come into the fwd line from a physical attributes point of view. I really don't trust his football iq. That role that melksham is currently playing requires someone who can read the play well and predict situations in advance. I don't think he has that in him unfortunately. 

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2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

It wasn't an immense game by Brown as you pointed out. I certainly thought it was one of his better games he's had for a bit but.

Also, since when is how many kicks you get in a game a key indicator of how you performed on the day, especially for a full forward? In fact, I bet coaches don't put a huge emphasis on how many kicks a full forward should get.

It's an indicator when he has 10 handballs compared to 6 kicks. Not what you want from a key forward and indicative of our game as a whole on the night.

  

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I mean even pressure acts for key forwards, is that really another key indicator? Some of the best forwards in the game right now are rated 'below average' for pressure acts.

Charlie Curnow

Tom Hawkins

Jeremy Cameron

Harry McKay.

All 4 players, including Ben Brown are rated 'below average' in the AFL for pressure acts and they have the exact same numbers or similar.

1. Our game style is built on pressure and our forward pressure has been lacking.

2. How does Brown compared to those forwards for goals, marks, contested marks, marks inside 50 and score involvements this year?

  

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Either your bar is set way too high or you're just now judging his performance unfairly and looking at nitpicking the smaller things when possible.

Yes, I do have a high bar for Ben Brown as I think he's a very very good player. I actually find it completely bizarre how much of a let off he gets on here. Former Coleman winner who is now just a 'try to bring it to ground' player.

  

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

n comparison to some individual performance this weekend from a stats point of view and I'll add the pressure acts as well.

Ben Brown: 6 kick 7 marks, 3 which were contest marks, 7 pressure acts 0 tackles and kicked 2.1

Last night

Tom Hawkins: 7 kicks last nigh, 5 marks, 1 contested mark only, 6 pressure acts, 0 tackles and kicked 3.1. 

Jeremy Cameron: 10 kicks, 2 pressure acts, 4 marks and 0 contested marks, 1 tackle and kicked 2.1

I reckon Chris Scott would still be fairly happy on their performances. So in comparison, Benny Brown had a good game on Friday night.

IMO Brown's stats were not fully indicative of his performance. He was messy, slow and at times not competitive. He also turned it over 5 times out of those 16 disposals.

  

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Do I think Goody is using him to his strengths? no I don't. Another genuine key forward is needed for the chop out and I think we missed the opportunity to bring JVR in a few backs back to build cohesion.

Agree on this. It's why I don't completely blame Brown even though I think he should be playing better.

Edited by Lord Nev
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10 hours ago, old dee said:

They took 4 between them, not exactly a huge number to replace. 

No I'm talking about the delivery inside 50 mate. Spargo and Melksham are our best users for that.

 

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10 hours ago, John Demonic said:

Harmes for Jordon and Gus to the wing is my feeling after last nights game too, Though I watched it on tv and didn't get to see how Jordon was doing re holding space, amount of km's - I just felt he was not manic enough when he had the ball and we need a boost in that department.

I think Jordon would be one of the first picked. He is turning one of the best wingman in the competition 

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4 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

I think Jordon would be one of the first picked. He is turning one of the best wingman in the competition 

He is getting the ball a lot, but has limited vision! Basically goes back ignores his first option, hesitates, waits for defenders and Max to roll back, then kicks it long down the line, every time!

Perhaps under instruction, but in 50% of cases ignores someone 25-30 metres in front of him on their own. Ignores chance to go quickly and open up opposition.
 

Aside from distance gained, the other stat that would be beneficial is metres gained that goes to a teammate.

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

It's an indicator when he has 10 handballs compared to 6 kicks. Not what you want from a key forward and indicative of our game as a whole on the night.

  

1. Our game style is built on pressure and our forward pressure has been lacking.

2. How does Brown compared to those forwards for goals, marks, contested marks, marks inside 50 and score involvements this year?

  

Yes, I do have a high bar for Ben Brown as I think he's a very very good player. I actually find it completely bizarre how much of a let off he gets on here. Former Coleman winner who is now just a 'try to bring it to ground' player.

  

IMO Brown's stats were not fully indicative of his performance. He was messy, slow and at times not competitive. He also turned it over 5 times out of those 16 disposals.

  

Agree on this. It's why I don't completely blame Brown even though I think he should be playing better.

Our game style is built on pressure yet we're ranked 17th in the AFL for pressure.

So realistically he's on par with the best key forwards in the game who play for teams with higher pressure rating then Melbourne. It's not that bad.

It's not just bringing it to ground. He's still hitting the scoreboard.  14 games this year for 25 goals. He's missed 6 games due to injury/covid. Had he played every game this year he's trajectory towards 40 goals a year. He's not kicking the big bags as what he's use to but it's better then what the likes of Jackson and Weideman have produced this year when up forward. 

 

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48 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

ANB stays in?  One good goal in the last. New name is “Captain fumbles “ and he often turns back into trouble. He definitely should be on the block as should Sparrow.  Spargo earned a reprieve by his Freo outing. 
 

outs : Sparrow ANB Melksham 

In:  JVR, Harmes, Chandler

Either/or. 

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12 hours ago, Neitas bump said:

Tomlinson to play defensive fwd - melksham out ( Tomlinson is bigger stronger and a trained defender and will be more likely to bring the ball to ground and bring kozzie and spargo into the game)

Dunstan comes in  brawshaw returns to the backline and hibberd is omitted. Brayshaw provides more dynamic defensive rebound options and Dunstan is a contested footy beast so we don't lose as much at the stoppages.

I would also bring in Harmes (a more consistent performer) to play the same role mid/fwd for sparrow.

There was no problem bringing the ball to ground (I love this term for “dropping marks”) on Friday, and rarely were Pickett or Spargo to be found. 

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Just now, dazzledavey36 said:

Our game style is built on pressure yet we're ranked 17th in the AFL for pressure.

Do you disagree? Do you think that ranking has any correlation to our performance over the last 10 or so weeks?

  

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

So realistically he's on par with the best key forwards in the game who play for teams with higher pressure rating then Melbourne. It's not that bad.

  He should be better than on par for pressure given where he'd be in relation to those key forwards for goals, marks, contested marks, marks inside 50 and score involvements.

  

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

It's not just bringing it to ground. He's still hitting the scoreboard.  14 games this year for 25 goals. He's missed 6 games due to injury/covid. Had he played every game this year he's trajectory towards 40 goals a year. He's not kicking the big bags as what he's use to but it's better then what the likes of Jackson and Weideman have produced this year when up forward.

  Not sure what Weid or Jackson have to do with anything? I'm not saying either of them should be in his role or picked ahead of him.

And I don't buy into the what ifs mate. Weid averages 1.3 goals per game so by your theory he'd be 3rd on our goal kicking table if he was picked every game. Brown has played 15 games btw.

Again, I don't want Brown dropped, I want better support for him so we get actual value for his talent and effort. Having Brown taking marks on the wing and kicking inside 50 to Spargo is not ideal IMO.

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46 minutes ago, Neitas bump said:

Although Smith is the right person to come into the fwd line from a physical attributes point of view. I really don't trust his football iq. That role that melksham is currently playing requires someone who can read the play well and predict situations in advance. I don't think he has that in him unfortunately. 

Such a good point but think his footy IQ will only improve if we play him We need to actually lay tackles in forward line Zero tackles last week from main forwards!!!

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Has Bowey ever played forward?  Spargo is a great field kick but doesn't get enough of it.  Bowey too is a better than average kick.  If we could have him delivering inside 50 rather than the continual pounding away of Oliver and Petracca, as highlighted today on the SFS, we might get another 3 or 4 easier shots on goal - in most of the games we've lost that would make the difference.  Perhaps Bowey at half forward or on the wing might be worth a try.

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3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Our game style is built on pressure yet we're ranked 17th in the AFL for pressure.

So realistically he's on par with the best key forwards in the game who play for teams with higher pressure rating then Melbourne. It's not that bad.

It's not just bringing it to ground. He's still hitting the scoreboard.  14 games this year for 25 goals. He's missed 6 games due to injury/covid. Had he played every game this year he's trajectory towards 40 goals a year. He's not kicking the big bags as what he's use to but it's better then what the likes of Jackson and Weideman have produced this year when up forward. 

 

Jackson is much more likely to win one on ones or take contested marks inside 50 than Brown. He plays higher up the ground, in part, due to Brown being in the side. 

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Luke Beveridge broke glass yesterday and played young sam Darcy.  Needed height down back. 

Posters on here rave about jvr. As good as darcy?

Jason taylor may think so.

Worth a shot on the G nect saturday imo.

We've got to be at Break glass time also given forward performances

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4 hours ago, D4Life said:

He is getting the ball a lot, but has limited vision! Basically goes back ignores his first option, hesitates, waits for defenders and Max to roll back, then kicks it long down the line, every time!

Perhaps under instruction, but in 50% of cases ignores someone 25-30 metres in front of him on their own. Ignores chance to go quickly and open up opposition.
 

Aside from distance gained, the other stat that would be beneficial is metres gained that goes to a teammate.

 

 

This kid is still learning . Let us celebrate that he is actually playing at the level he is.

Our hassle is that TMac (who some people bagged when he is there) is a pretty important cog in our fwd line in that :

  • He is quick
  • He runs in straight lines with momentum
  • Is a good Pack Mark
  • and importantly is an accurate kick for goal

Applicants should apply !!!

Is there anyone on the list who can supply this.?  Somebody, but somebody must move & present inside the 45 degree angle, then our goal kicking will improve. Deep fwd pocket shots do not have a high success rate.

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29 minutes ago, dimmy said:

Our hassle is that TMac (who some people bagged when he is there) is a pretty important cog in our fwd line in that :

  • He is quick
  • He runs in straight lines with momentum
  • Is a good Pack Mark
  • and importantly is an accurate kick for goal

Applicants should apply !!!

TMc is quick? Runs in straight lines because he has the turning circle of the Queen Mary....

Must admit he does make room in the packs.

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It does not matter who you drop put in because unless they change their inside fifty deliveries nothing will change.

The club has done a great job getting us to become a strong club and playing for final spots instead of bottom four spots, but let's look at it this way, when Geelong won those flags they had good forwards, the Hawks again strong forward line players, same with the Lions and the tigers and they never really changed their game style because of it. Then when the Dogs won everyone thought gee they will win a few, but they really did not have strong forwards and they had not a really strong backline but everythingfell into place, now come to us strong midfield, great backline but the forward line not so strong but again everything fell into place.

The thing is the dogs and us kept playing the same style and setup and teams worked it out, then it became a little bit more difficult to score, now come to Friday night, a game that should have seen us up by at lesst 7 goal at least by half time but again we played pockets and in reality the tighter the angle, harder to score, there were a few times player were calling for it free, no pies player near them but you can see players are instructed to go down the line, pies players spread and they just transitioned the ball easily up the ground to score goals on easier angles.

The one other problem we have is we do not not transition across the ground with ease it is always with a stutter but that's for another day.

The fact that we do not have a park mark type player but have have lead up forwards and we continue to bomb it in is a worry even if Tmac was there it would not make a hugh difference. There is a saying the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result and that is where we are maybe we should try and change it up, they are using  both smalls as defensive forward maybe try Chandler who is an attacking type player instead of Spargo but more importantly just try to change angles with the entries give BB a chance on the lead that is were he got most of his goals at North, let see happens in the next two games.

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, david_neitz_is_my_dad said:

Cripps definetly an out for Carlton after his bump

Hmmm let’s see:

- high profile player

- possible for the brownlow

- plays for a team the AFL desperately want in finals

Will get off for sure.

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8 hours ago, Lil_red_fire_engine said:

Accepting we wont make 4 changes at this time of year but.

In: Bowey, JVR, Harmes, Chandler

Out: Hunt, Melksham, Sparrow, Spargo

Spargo is about the only player who can hit up a leading forward consistently, drop him at your peril

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We had plenty of time to produce ( may not be possible ) another version of T.Mac via the reserves . Tomlinson , Howes and Turner.

I know Turner and Howes suffered injuries . The team needs another T.Mac who could make B.Brown a better player .

We seem to roll the dice with the same sort of players really to no avail. Changes In Bowey ,JVR , Smith and Chandler. Out Hunt, Melksham, Hibbert, Spargo or Swallow.

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