POSTGAME: Rd 16 vs GWS

[WalkingCivilWar 39,256]

7 minutes ago, John Crow Batty said:

He was trying to do something. On another day it might have worked. 

Key word

[1964_2 2,357]

3 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Key word

In the past Goodwin has been criticised for not being proactive with changes during a game. 

kozzy, ANB, Spargo weren’t going to win us the game yest - so it was a low risk, smart move to try Hunt forward - and I think it’s a sign he is getting better as a coach (even though it ultimately didn’t work) 

it’s not always the outcome that defines whether something was or wasn’t a good move. 

 

[Gawndy the Great 9,008]

19 hours ago, jnrmac said:

GWS had 2 players 5m from TMac when taking his shot on goal. The protected zone is 10m

Brayshaw had a GWS player waltz past 3m away. WHen the ump called play on he tackled Brayshaw. That is a 50m every day of the week.

Mumford ducks with the ball in the centre and collects Gawn's knee. Free Mumford, i50 shot on goal

There were at least another 10 I can recall but can't be bothered detailing. 

Hopeless as usual.

I noticed this as well but it’s a 5m radius protected zone. They were still within 5 metres  though but not by much.

the running through the mark protected zone is so inconsistently  adjudicated but I’d rather it not be paid unless absolutely obvious.

 

[Gawndy the Great 9,008]

What irked me most about yesterday was the attitude in Q4 vs Q1-3. I’ve said previously that the team seems to be playing in 2nd gear whether it’s by design I don’t know. 

At some stage that aggression and confidence needs to be there from the first bounce and blow teams out of the water but I wonder if we are saving this for the finals? The upside is that we can definitely see that it’s in our toolkit.

[layzie 32,693]

1 minute ago, CYB said:

What irked me most about yesterday was the attitude in Q4 vs Q1-3. I’ve said previously that the team seems to be playing in 2nd gear whether it’s by design I don’t know. 

At some stage that aggression and confidence needs to be there from the first bounce and blow teams out of the water but I wonder if we are saving this for the finals? The upside is that we can definitely see that it’s in our toolkit.

I don’t know whether it’s some sort of tactic to ‘soak the pressure in’ then hit them when they are worn down or if it’s just slow starting but we look so cagey and cautious early in games lately and it isn’t helping. Teams scared to take risks don’t win.

[Demonised 1,302]

Maybe other teams have now had time to suss out our Plan A and our Plan B. I hope we have a Plan C ...

[Redleg 39,943]

Don't want to get howled down and I love the kid and think he will be a very good player, but LJ fumbled numerous times and late in the game pulled out of a contest letting an opponent get an easy ball. Just saying. I am sure it will be pointed out to him.

[picket fence 16,625]

In Dazzle we trust! Consider this pearl of wisdom

"Stafford, Goodwin and whoever else is in charge of selection committee needs to swallow their ego's and arrogance and just get Brown in and leave him in there to build cohesion with his teammates. It was do bloody obvious that majority of us supporter raised this as a concern when team selections came out on Thursday."

Yes Dazzle agree 100%

[1964_2 2,357]

30 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Don't want to get howled down and I love the kid and think he will be a very good player, but LJ fumbled numerous times and late in the game pulled out of a contest letting an opponent get an easy ball. Just saying. I am sure it will be pointed out to him.

Fair observation.

But, I also noticed a skinny 19 year old ruckman, backed in at centre bounces against one of the biggest, most aggressive ruckman the game has seen - while Gawn rested in the fwd line. 

what was Gawn doing as a 19 year old? 
 

[dazzledavey36 52,656]

33 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Don't want to get howled down and I love the kid and think he will be a very good player, but LJ fumbled numerous times and late in the game pulled out of a contest letting an opponent get an easy ball. Just saying. I am sure it will be pointed out to him.

Agree.

I hope you don't get howled down, but unfortunately I think you will.

The issue I have with Jackson is that his non existent up forward. He's not a natural one, and I think he's taking up a spot for Brown or Weideman who at least will provide a contest. 

Issue is how do we manage him knowing full well he still plays 3nd ruck quiet well.

[D Rev 592]

19 hours ago, Wrecker46 said:

Hunt was having a crack. 

Those caught with the ball in the forward 50 three times in a row aren't having a crack, they're having a brain fade.

[D Rev 592]

18 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Agree.

I hope you don't get howled down, but unfortunately I think you will.

The issue I have with Jackson is that his non existent up forward. He's not a natural one, and I think he's taking up a spot for Brown or Weideman who at least will provide a contest. 

Issue is how do we manage him knowing full well he still plays 3nd ruck quiet well.

Jackson did compete, but he was pretty ineffectual.  He actually looked tired for mine and should probably get a spell.  We have Daw and Weidemann both in the twos who can pinch hit in the ruck.  Daw may be good in giving us a p/t target up front and Weid (I reckon) plays better roaming the ground.

Kozzie and Spargo were almost never sighted, that forward line pressure is absolutely what we need.  If they can't do it, we must have someone motivated in the twos who can (at least) try. 

The effort (and effectiveness) shown in the second half are evidence that the forward line set-up can work, if people put in an effort.  Gawn in particular came out with demonstrable intent from the 3rd quarter.  We need the other leaders to do the same.  Petracca got a lot of it but his disposal efficiency (esp in front of goal) still hurts us.  As do the forwards kicking snaps rather than kicking straight.  Too much show-boating, not enough intent.  This goes triple for Hunt.

Letting them get easy goals out the back after 40 seconds cannot continue.

 

[kev martin 9,455]

2 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

James Harmes:

 Is a tagger + nothing else.

Don't agree, he gets plenty of looks at it. When he has a close job on his opponent, he gets the ball off them. When he has no close opponent he is still in there getting the ball.

My problem with him is, the decision making. Often, he takes "them on" too much, trying to break tackles or his timing puts pressure on himself or the receiver. Needs to speed up and leave less margin for errors. Would be good if he ran or delivers to space when he has the ball (not alone in that area). A few need to be smarter when they have the ball.

2 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

give Jack 4 weeks before we start calling for his head. 

Agree with this. Vines can be a match winner or can turn the momentum our way when he is going. He also has a great connection with Gawn, give him time.

Gawny is very flexible because of his marking ability. With a proper tall at full forward he can offer an extra tall in there, or play that defensive keep it in the attacking 50 game, or support the backline when needed. Play him everywhere. 

The small forward line isn’t working. We aren't smart enough to lower our eyes and kick to advantage. Bring in a stay at home tall.

Not sure we have a like for like Hibbs replacement, Maynard retired. Possibly AVB, but they may be setting him as a mid.

[layzie 32,693]

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

Don't want to get howled down and I love the kid and think he will be a very good player, but LJ fumbled numerous times and late in the game pulled out of a contest letting an opponent get an easy ball. Just saying. I am sure it will be pointed out to him.

Yep, he did. There were quite a few times where he backed into packs too but he’s still in a pick and choose mode early in his career. He’ll get there though. 

[Dr. Gonzo 23,665]

7 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Finished watching replay late last night.

Our first quarter was incredibly frustrating to watch. This unfortunately brought back memories of 2019. So many inside 50s for 0 reward. And once again it was the same usual suspects who continue to butcher it going forward..  Oliver, Harmes, Petracca and Viney. Notice these are so called leaders?

Forward is a complete mess. Amount of times we had the ball forward of centre to then having to wait until the likes of Fritta and McDonald sprint back to give us an option. By then GWS were able to flood back numbers. McDonald played a good game playing as that roaming CHF, but yet we had to rely on Fritsch as our FF. Just a complete mess. 

I like Jackson, I really do. His ruck work and around the stuff is amazing for a young ruckman. But as a forward, he might as well be a witches cone. Doesn't add any value up forward and unfortunately he's a bit of a weak link because he's simply not a natural forward and this is taking away a spot for Weideman/Brown. Need to work out how best we use him moving forward because him up forward is simply not working. 

Stafford, Goodwin and whoever else is in charge of selection committee needs to swallow their ego's and arrogance and just get Brown in and leave him in there to build cohesion with his teammates. It was do bloody obvious that majority of us supporter raised this as a concern when team selections came out on Thursday.

Petracca and Oliver are doing my [censored] head in. We saw the Hollywood [censored] they dished up against Collingwood and I said after that game that if Goodwin is fair dinkum he gives them an absolute bake. Well it's CLEARLY evident that nothing has been done by the coaching staff in rectifying this because that's 3 games in the row these two Id iots have cost us goals and turnovers through trying to be fancy. 

If I read another article that Petracca is in the same level as Bont I'll spew up! He is so far daylight apart from Bont that's its not funny. 

The comments around Hunt costing us the game is laughable. Besides those 3 blunders he actually played a good game. I can easily list 10 other things that cost us the game. He stays in the team.

Full credit to May, Lever and Salem who were absolutely a rock in defence. They all did their job while the rest up the field completely shut the bed. I hope May tore shreds off them. How demoralised would it be when you and your back 6 are doing the job, but its the fruit cakes ahead who kill us with simple mistakes.

I said last week that I believe the doggies were clearly the number 1 team in the comp as they were  complete all over the ground. I said maybe their defence was shaky, but then I read a stat that they were number 1 in the AFL for some of the key defensive stats. Certain individuals who I won't name, had their rosy red and blue glasses on tried to justify this.  This is why the doggies and Lions are the best team in the comp. They win they should be. We don't.

Overall a very disappointing game. 

 

I watched the replay this morning as well and agree it was bloody frustrating because I genuinely think we were the better team for 3 quarters. They broke the game open in the 2nd quarter with 4 goals to 2 and we couldn't reel it in because our efficiency going forward was pathetic. Ben Brown will definitely straighten us up, so many kicks went deep in the first quarter and were just swept up by Haynes, Davis etc because we had no one there to compete. So many wasted attacks and obviously the last quarter was a debacle with Max, Rivers, Petracca all kicking the belly of the ball when trying snap, Petracca mjssing Gawn on a lead, Hunt failing to hit up Gawn in the goal square etc

The start of the 3rd we came out with intent and stuffed up chance after chance, TMac missed an easy oass to Kozzie, Petracca misses a sitter, Fritsch misses a relatively easy snap. We should have been back on top after the first 5-10 minutes of the 3rd but had only 1 goal for our efforts, they then went down and kicked two quick ones to get the margin back out to 4 goals. Petracca's miss in particular was inexcusable, 30 out directly in front, a few minutes after half time.

We've been saying all year failure to take advantage of our shots for goal will bite us in the [censored] and yesterday it did. I think it is clear from watching the replay that we are desoerately in need of a key forward (as many here said after last week) and I think if we had Brown in we probably win.

[Earl Hood 6,057]

Interesting stat caught my eye having a coffee this morning and looking at match review in The Hun. We had 23 shots at goal for an actual accuracy of 30% (7 goals, 13 behinds and 3 out of bounds) while the expected accuracy was 70%! The expected accuracy it seems, is based on the AFL average accuracy for where each shot at goal is taken. So average accuracy would have us kick more like 13 goals 7. That is a long way off the mark for a top team. GWS were a bit better at 40%, expected 65% I think. It’s those set shots from inside 40m and very little angle that we miss seemingly every week that do my head in. Fix that accuracy just to AFL average and we win most games. 

[Engorged Onion 10,114]

7 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

Interesting stat caught my eye having a coffee this morning and looking at match review in The Hun. We had 23 shots at goal for an actual accuracy of 30% (7 goals, 13 behinds and 3 out of bounds) while the expected accuracy was 70%! The expected accuracy it seems, is based on the AFL average accuracy for where each shot at goal is taken. So average accuracy would have us kick more like 13 goals 7. That is a long way off the mark for a top team. GWS were a bit better at 40%, expected 65% I think. It’s those set shots from inside 40m and very little angle that we miss seemingly every week that do my head in. Fix that accuracy just to AFL average and we win most games. 

I posted this just a little earlier in another thread... - so the expected accuracy doesn't actually wash - its closer to 50% (for pedants sake).

[loges 6,767]

4 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

Hi All, 

It’s not helpful to panic or over-react to a loss, and you can’t win every week unfortunately. Having said this, it is important to learn from a day like yesterday. 

I couldn’t be happier with this year, and the clear improvement choco, Yze, goody and the players have delivered. But, we do still appear to be slow to learn. I will summarise my thoughts below, and interested in any views, agree or otherwise. (Apologies for duplication, as I am sure you would have covered much of this)

James Harmes:

 Is a tagger + nothing else. This is a player, that appears to get too happy with himself at times, and unfortunately is not smart enough to play a half-fwd flank, or wing. So if there is no tagging job for a game, then he should be playing VFL - especially as we have many similar players to him (but a bit smarter). 

Viney:

let’s not panic here. If it takes Danger a month to get back to his best from a similar length injury, then we can give Jack 4 weeks before we start calling for his head. 

Petracca/Oliver:

not at their best yesterday, but we can’t be a team that relies on them dominating to get a win. 

May/Lever:

Thankyou to whoever’s decision it was to chase them - we are nothing without them. 

Petty:

seamless replacement for Tomlinson. Reliable + compliments May/Lever. 

Kozzy/Spargo/ANB:

kozzy needs a rest, a clear coaching error to not identify this. The three of them have been critical all year, but at least 1 of them does need to play a strong offensive game, to compliment the defensive pressure they bring most weeks. A good coaching move to identify that they were off yest, and try Hunt fwd. it nearly won us the game. 

Gawn:

when not ruck, I think he provides most value a kick behind the play on wings/defence. When another key fwd (Brown/Weid) finally stands up, we will obviously have this luxury.

Brown/Weid:

it couldn’t have been more obvious last week against the Dons, that we needed another key target inside 50. Clearly they decided to take too much comfort from the win, rather than addressing weaknesses. I am concerned with Weid, and his ability to have a presence at AFL level. Please Ben Brown, step up and regain your status as one of the comp’s best full fwd’s. 

Fritsch:

wish he wasn’t so selfish, but has a key role in the team + will benefit when Brown finally steps up. 

TMac:

don’t change a thing. He is not our inside 50 target. He is our CHF that exploits his opponents lack of fitness by leading all the way up to half back flank. Will also benefit when key inside 50 target steps up. 

Jackson:

give him the rising star, and sign him for 4 years. Will be a top 5 player in the competition in future years. 

Salem: 

half-back flank, and key cog in defence. Don’t mess with the things that are working. 

Hibberd:

amazing that he is playing his best footy at this age. And let’s hope we have Maynard ready to play the same role next year.

Jordon/Sparrow:

Keep playing them (especially Jordon). They are the future + I am not sure potential replacements such as AVB + Melksham add more to the team. 

Langdon/Brayshaw: 

don’t change a thing. See above re don’t mess with things that are working. 

Rivers/Hunt:

Riv a future star of the comp. Hunt - a great role player this year (although execution was off yest) 

 

keep the faith demons supporters. It’s a tough time of the year. Goody - Learn from yesterday, tinker and address the deficiencies, smash Port, then the season is well and truly on track. 

 

Top post

[Redleg 39,943]

2 hours ago, D Rev said:

Those caught with the ball in the forward 50 three times in a row aren't having a crack, they're having a brain fade.

Perhaps if his team mates gave him a forward option or told him he was “hot”it might have worked out a bit differently on those occasions.

[Neil Crompton 5,306]

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Agree.

I hope you don't get howled down, but unfortunately I think you will.

The issue I have with Jackson is that his non existent up forward. He's not a natural one, and I think he's taking up a spot for Brown or Weideman who at least will provide a contest. 

Issue is how do we manage him knowing full well he still plays 3nd ruck quiet well.

My god Dazz, don't let Dr D see this comment ffs!

[monoccular 17,305]

One important aspect that doesn’t get discussed much is that GW$ have been gifted an enormously talented list - both of their supporters should be very [censored] off that they are not perpetual premiers.  

Little consolation I know, but with any semblance of any forward structure and connection we should have accounted for them easily. 

[FireInTheBennelly 4,058]

When you lose a game by 9 points, keeping your opponents to 64 points, while you have a multiple 60+ goal a year forward in the VFL after kicking 5 goals the week before, is there any point in reviewing the match? The only review required is into what happened prior to 6:35pm on Thursday evening. 

[dino rover 700]

On 7/3/2021 at 4:37 PM, Chook said:

Anyone putting blame on Hunt for trying a bit too hard to win us the game after everyone else did SFA all day needs to sit in a corner.

At least hunt tried to win it for us

he just doesn’t have the tools

better to try and fail than to not try at all

[WalkingCivilWar 39,256]

7 minutes ago, monoccular said:

both of their supporters should be very [censored] off that they are not perpetual premiers.  

?

[titan_uranus 24,552]

12 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Variation is what we need up forward, right now. Considerable change is necessary to end the repeating slumps through which we pass. 

• BB, Daw, AVB, JSmith need to be in.
• Two newbies of the roving type with good foot skills must come in for Spargo and Pickett, immediately.
• Tracca must be allocated at least 50% time in the forward line. 
• Selectors must justify their role and record.

This is precisely what we must not do.

We are where we are because we have developed understanding of roles and of each other. Losing doesn't mean starting again.

Daw isn't going to solve our forward problems, he's been playing ruck at Casey. Smith's playing defence at Casey.

This much change will make us worse. Selection goal this week is a few strategic personnel changes but the far more important goal is to ensure the 19-20 other blokes who hold their spot improve on the mistakes they were making.

9 hours ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

We definitely looked flat today. The game was lost by our inability to win a clearance and then by no forward connection due to no one forward to connect with or stagnant movement that allowed them to also shuffle back. I love our defence first mantra but we have overcorrected and its defence only at the moment. We are saying we are playing a role based game but we have players who are playing in roles that dont exist like midfielders playing 65% or less time with half of it in forward positions. Time to get back to defending hard when they have the ball but hold some forward structure and get some speed and dare back. Whilst we weren’t flying in clearances prior Viney into the side he has not assisted our clearance and stoppage work and we are carrying him to gain touch and fitness at the moment. A short turn around allows us to try some things and “manage” some players as I fear if we dont we will not be able to correct the path we are on and we will just make up the September numbers.  

This is rubbish, utter rubbish.

We're generating plenty of ball inside 50, we're indeed generating enough scoring shots. This isn't a problem of us not being able or willing to move the ball forward (a comparison is Collingwood, a side which actively prefers slow and sideways movement).

This is a problem of us falling down at the final two hurdles - finding a suitable target inside 50, and straight kicking for goal.