James Frawley v Nathan Jones - ‘ultimate’ success

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Many of you will remember the ‘debate’ we had here about Frawley leaving to join the Hawks to chase the ‘ultimate’ success.

There were two camps at the time, one of which was quite generous in that they argued that Frawley leaving was absolutely acceptable in the circumstances - he was randomly drafted by the MFC (ie, not his choice), we were super carp, he had shown much loyalty to the MFC, his career would not last forever, so why not deprive him of the opportunity to taste ‘ultimate’ success elsewhere. It was an interesting debate - in many respects it hinged on what ‘ultimate’ success looked like to different posters.

I was firmly in the camp that ‘ultimate’ success was essentially about the journey with your team-mates, the club, the supporters etc that gives the quest ‘ultimate’ meaning. Without the shared journey, ‘ultimate’ success was saccharine, it was hollow.

Many disagreed - they argued it was all about ‘ultimate’ success (ie, winning a flag), and the ‘journey’ etc was just noise, emotive noise, which shouldn’t influence a player’s opportunity to taste the ‘ultimate’ success albeit with a new club. Snagging a flag with a club, with players, whom you met at the 12th hour, in the premiership window, was apparently just as meaningful as doing it with the club to which you were drafted.

In this context, I closely watched James Frawley last night. And I couldn’t help but thinking - I bet you envy the hell out of Nathan Jones right now, even though he has tasted ‘ultimate’ success, after all he has won a flag.

Irrespective of whether Jones ever gets to hold the cup aloft (and I bloody hope he does), I reckon he’s been far closer to tasting ‘ultimate’ success than Frawley ever has. In the context of their respective careers, ‘ultimate’ success is surely more aligned to leading an unpopular and much derided and widely patronised club, against all odds, to fertile pastures - it’s not been the easy road to success, but geez it must feel rewarding. And the legacy is surely more enduring.

I suspect Nathan Jones will eventually look back on these last two weeks, featuring heavily in 2 great contests in front of 90k plus passionate and expectant MFC dominated crowds, and feel super proud of his achievements. Genuinely proud. As he should. This, to me, is ‘ultimate’ success.

In my view, that’s got to feel better than jagging a premiership with a group of dudes whom you’ve just met.

 

 

 

[What 18,810]

Scully and Frawley both took the weak option.

They aren't 1000th the man that Nate Jones is.

[rpfc 28,433]

Yes, it would have been great to stay at one club and win. 

Bit this isn’t happening in a vacuum; we needed young midfield talent so Brayshaw wouldn’t be helping us into a prelim if Frawley was still around and, again, we knew he was going to get us a top 5 pick so we didn’t actively keep him.

I just don’t think it is a a genuine argument to have a go at Frawley for being less loyal than Jones - we wanted to keep Jones...

[Mach5 4,767]

I’d rather be In Jones’ shoes personally, but I think if he didn’t leave as a free agent, it’s likely we would have traded Frawley anyway in a list rebuild.

Not that we have traded many players out that wanted to stay, but he’s not what we needed.

Edited September 15, 2018 by Mach5

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

Frawley has a “Cheap” Flag....

he put the white flag up early in 2014 whilst still being paid. 

No respect. 

[Redleg 40,925]

7 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

Scully and Frawley both took the weak option.

They aren't 1000th the man that Nate Jones is.

Yet plenty of geniuses on DL wanted Jones out of the side the second half of the season.

[Guest]

I don't blame Chip for what he did. Roosy himself wouldn't bag him upon leaving and was glowing in his praise. 

One reason for why I started the 'bathwater' thread was that I knew that the place was big on promises but less about keeping them. The new regime was in but it would have been difficult to tell if this was another false dawn.

That being said, Nate deserves so much praise for hanging on. A lot of others would have packed it in a lot earlier.

[Mr Steve 3,820]

The Nathan Jones story has a little bit of Robbie Flower about it.

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

5 minutes ago, Colin B. Flaubert said:

I don't blame Chip for what he did. Roosy himself wouldn't bag him upon leaving and was glowing in his praise. 

One reason for why I started the 'bathwater' thread was that I knew that the place was big on promises but less about keeping them. The new regime was in but it would have been difficult to tell if this was another false dawn.

That being said, Nate deserves so much praise for hanging on. A lot of others would have packed it in a lot earlier.

Pre Paul Roos i would have agreed with you 100%, but once Roos was on board Frawley should have put his head down and gone for it, he chose the other option and played out the season at 3/4 pace, then couldn’t wait to put on that putrid strip and declare his love  

His Flag at Whorethorn, sure he got it, but “meh” few will recall. He is still mates with many of the players so i am sure he will be reminded...

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I was firmly in 'pro Frawley leaving' camp. 

For one, we were always going to get great compensation for him. 

And Two, he lacked the personality traits to help make us great again. The complete opposite of Jones in fact. 

In short, the guy is not a thinker. 

And if you were to dissect his performance last night, you'll see what I mean by the way he plays. The bloke is made of fluff. 

I can imagine last night he would have had some 'what if I stayed' moments as the game was slowly slipping out of Hawthorn's grasp. I don't buy the view that supporters believe he'd be happy with the call he made. A premiership that he barely had anything to do with. 

Good riddance, we got Brayshaw. We are about to embark on an unbelievably exciting period for the club. 

Let's continue to ride the wave of these last few weeks. It's been magical so far. 

Edited September 15, 2018 by stevethemanjordan

[Bang Bang Bang 5,826]

Win-Win-Win IMO.

Hawks got a serviceable defender for free.

We got Brayshaw as compensation and replaced Frawley easily through drafting and trading.

Frawley himself has a flag, albeit a hollow one. But still a flag. And to be fair he could have won the Norm Smith in 15.

Can't blame him for leaving, I briefly gave up watching games in 2013. If a lifelong fan can stoop to such measures, then a guy with no real emotional attachment to the club most certainly can too.

[640MD 3,376]

Pardon my ignorance.

I was at the match  watching as closely as I could (but watching melbourne) did Frawley "do anything"  I cannot remember him getting hold of the ball, certainly if he did I did not recognise that it was him. Obviously not a great game cos the Demons won.    interested in others thoughts,   I did know he was playing but was really watching "our" players.

 

Another step up next week  Go Demons !!    we should be serous  about it now   no more dees   we are DEMONS !!

[Chook 15,013]

Chip was terrible in his last year at the dees. I was happy to see the back of him, especially with what we got in compo from the AFL.

[Willmoy1947 4,089]

This topic in some ways would seem to exacerbate the usage of saying that it's "not the Crown (goal) it's the Clothes (journey)" theory. This is one i agree with. I also wonder about whether the "choke" idea that was being tossed around yesterday had anything to do with the overwhelming mood afterwards. 

 

[P-man 13,366]

I don’t hold a grudge against Chip. Or even Scully.

Howe on the other hand can get stuffed after the way he carried on waxing lyrical about his love for Bucks and Collingwood. He showed little respect for the club that drafted him. I wish him no success. 

Needless to say, Jonesy’s loyalty and resilience is a rare thing. He has the respect of the entire football world and rightly so.

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

There was a game early in 2014 (rnd 2 I think) vs WCE.  Frawley barely jogged after his forward.  Put in no effort at all. 

He stamped his own papers that day.  Thereafter, Roos rarely played him in defence and started rebuilding our backline with players in it for the long term.

Frawley has the comfort of his medal.  Jones has the comfort of the esteem in which he is held by everyone past and present at mfc. 

Edited September 15, 2018 by Lucifer's Hero

[Wrecker45 3,378]

You’re either with us or against us.

Garland called Chip our and said a flag to him would mean nothing if it wasn’t at Melbourne.

Jones will be in our next team of the century and possibly captain of it depending how we finish. Frawley won’t even be remembered.

[Little Goffy 14,546]

Already, Nathan Jones will be remembered for a generation after he retires and have a place in AFL history for longer than that.

Nothing is certain, but Jones can now wink suggestively in the direction of a premeirship of his own. And very few players in the history of the game could claim more credit for it.

But it is not like Frawley will be crying. He made a choice to be a good player in a great team rather than have the weight of a club on his shoulders, tasted success, and how now also had the fun of being repeatedly knocked out of finals in straight sets.

[Jaded No More 68,915]

Frawley won the easiest flag in history. He waltzed into a winning team, barely did a thing and won a premiership. Satisfaction level low.

He can go eat a bag of dicks. 

[Mach5 4,767]

The only thing that worried me about Frawley leaving as a FA was the compensation. I didnt trust the AFL, but they came through.

Having said that, I’m not entirely sure we deserved it based on the mythical equation. He wasn’t offered the world, even though it would be a lot to most.

[sisso 2,580]

You watch him live and wonder what happened to the gun defender from way back in 2010: backmen generally get better with age and experience but he's pretty bad, doubt he'd get a game with us or many other top sides anymore.

[spirit of norm smith 16,459]

Frawley is a very good player but still get injured too often. Did his best but walked out for $$$ and quick glory. 

We got Brayshaw so no tears on Frawleys departure. 

[titan_uranus 25,020]

I don't blame him for leaving and given how it turned out for us I'm glad he did.

I wonder what he thinks of his career, though. How much success does he gain from walking into a star-studded Hawthorn and winning a premiership in one year when that club was almost certainly going to win it whether he was there or not. The guys he was celebrating with, he'd known for 12 months or less. Some of them had played 10 years together and had built that club into what it was. 

I just can't believe he looks back on that flag the same way Trent Cotchin or Matty Boyd look back on theirs.

[Big Demon 197]

James [censored] who?

 

[Dirts 429]

10 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Frawley has a “Cheap” Flag....

he put the white flag up early in 2014 whilst still being paid. 

No respect. 

Jonesy will forever be a legend at the dees. Chip will be a prem player that everyone forgets.