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In my view the key factor that is being missed, or ignored, in much of this discussion is the most important question - what is Grundy worth to us? Many thought we paid too much for May and Lever. Nobody thought that in October last year. We are not privy to the "deal", if in fact there is one yet. We don't know the structure of Grundy's salary, we don't know the extent or impact of his injury on his likely future performance and we don't know what his role will be in the team and how we plan to use him and Gawny next year. We don't know how banged up Gawny is. What we do know is we've made excellent decisions in the past (Langdon, May, Lever, Melksham, Hibberd, Watts, Hogan) and there is little reason to doubt what we do this year. Whatever we give up for Grundy will not be based on how it will help Collingwood, it will be based on how it will help us. Many, understandably, think we have Collingwood over a barrell and want to screw them to the wall. But I don't think we do business like that, I think we'll look at what we need and we'll pay a price to get it that we are happy with. We are not going to be too worried about whether we give up (say) pick 20 or 30 for Grundy because the reality is we know we need him we won't lose that deal for 10 spots in the draft.

selwood looked like a player retiring in the last quarter last night and he gets to go out on the highest high. he was a [censored] to play against and a massive sook but he was a world class leader and a tough combative warrior so fair play to him

Got to wonder what people are watching when they say he reminds them of Noah Balta, Jacob Weitering and Jack Riewoldt. Balta is all athlete, Weitering is very dour but a smooth mover and Jack is as mercurial as a big forward can be. JVR is nothing like any of them. He's hustle, bustle, reach and grab, push off and mark. 2nd and 3rd efforts on the deck. He's all heart. A bit of Hogan with more athleticism, a bit of mihocek with a bit more height and reach.

No more small forwards or small defenders for me We have Hibbo Riv Salem Hunt Bowey D.Smith and Mcvee We have Kozzzy Spargo ANB Bedford Chandler Laurie AMW Currently oversubscribed in my view I’d like to bring the ruck/forward option to replace LJ, plus another skilled speedy midfielder (like a Chad Warner type) to run and provide good entries into forward 50.

All the noise is we'll be giving up a first rounder for him which is disappointing but I'll reserve my judgement until the trades are done. Wouldn't surprise me if it gets a bit convoluted with multiple pick swaps. One hypothetical I could see being somewhat reasonable is as follows... Say we get a top 10 pick and Freos 13 for Jackson. We could trade 13 and 32 for Grundy and 16. This values grundy at pick 26 and we maintain 2 x first round selection at the expense of a 2nd round pick which we may not use.

Well I look forward to the next “fact” in this thread of 231 pages to date, as so far it could be argued, that the only fact posted, is that “LJ is leaving.”

No pressure then.

Is the strategy to get Grundy to try to extend Gawns career so he’s not so “wrecked”. Or does Max already have an injury that he carried for the 2022 season. Grundy will be 29 and Max 31 at the start of next year. Perhaps each can remarkably extend out their careers together.

Posters forget that we'll be having discussions with several list managers about hypothetical pick swaps to move up the draft order before the Jackson/Freo trade gets done. What's of interest to me is more around what the Freo picks will allow us to do rather than whether or not they can acquire a specific pick, because I'm not sure the club will be happy waiting until deadline day for Freo to find a way to get a pick inside 5, as an example. So if they end up paying overs in the way of lower end first rounders and a second rounder, that's fine. It'll give us more opportunity at doing what we're widely acknowledged of being masters at which is moving up the draft. And it'll give us great flexibility early on to trade for a player too. There's no loss in this for us, the club will have all bases covered. And even if the pick numbers for the Jackson trade seem underwhelming when it gets done, I'd wait until the end of the trade period and draft night before judging our net result.

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/09/25/grundy-not-far-behind-treloar-like-dissatisfaction-with-collingwood-trade/

I'm sure most of you know, but going by a few comments, there's a few people on here that don't know how a salary dump works with trade value. These pick numbers are what I think, and are obviously up for debate, but the example of how salary dumps work is this. Lets say the true value both clubs see Grundy is a Pick 21. (This is disregarding his salary, or any salary dump. This is just based on his age and ability etc). IF Collingwood are paying $300k per year, it would mean that Pick 21 slides down to about 16. IF Collingwood don't pay any of his salary, That Pick 21 slides up to about 35. Lets say a team like North that have plenty of salary cap space. They would do the reverse on what we would be doing and paying all of Grundy's salary, which would mean Collingwood get a worse pick. Lets say Pick 35.

We beat Geelong three times last year. At the start and twice at the end of the season. They changed a lot this year directly because of us. They were in no way better than us last year.

Much admired young Jack Henry yesterday before the bounce Buddy was hugely aggressive towards him - push and shove etc. Henry simply absorbed the aggression and re-took his post next to Buddy each time he was pushed away.. Never engaged emotionally. Take Note Steven May. Then went on to comprehensively beat him in any contests. Buddy's been shown up by May and no longer has the tricks, based on the GF and our final. Farewell year for him in 2023, but IMO another example of a true champ going too long. I wonder whether these types find it difficult to imagine life without elite sport and thus push that final boundary.?

He's a f!@g, and the thought that he may have played his last game makes me feel warm inside.

This makes sense, in terms of no announcement of his intention. He’s forcing them to say they traded him - because that’s the truth I found it interesting McStay nominated Collingwood before they announced anything about Grundy. Assuming De Goey stays I couldn’t understand how they possibly have the cap space to bring in McStay. This explains it. It’s a done deal, but he’s not going to do their dirty work. Fair play.

Please don’t rooyen for all of us the vibe around this kid JG. Let us have 6 months of dreaming of what could be. Your point is noted however, and one of us will refer to it next season for sure. I’m of the thinking that he is Ox like, rather than Balta, and really hope I’m the one that’s right.

I don't like Geelong but that outcome is impossible for me to dislike. Flags are very hard to win. They played a nearly perfect season, managed their squad superbly and made the necessary changes to their game plan to bring success. I even felt good Scott, Selwood, Hawkins, Dangerfield and Smith - something I thought I'd never say - but excellence is excellent. They deserve all accolades - very well done.

Agreed. Adding Bowey to the defensive set up and giving him licence to go hard and fast will improve us immensely. And a fit Salem.

Rubbish. WCE finished 9th in 2021, and no-one could have predicted their Covid/injury issues. We had 2 games against the 2021 2nd bottom team Collingwood, and we lost both. We only played the Grand Finalists once, and lost both. We were 8-0 with games against NM and WCE coming up. We didn't take the opportunity to manage players. And we didn't take the opportunity to test our squad depth, and utilise Casey players in form. We tried to replicate 2021 in all aspects, and failed. The Cats knew they had to change personnel and game style, and succeeded. To say they were gifted the Premiership is just sour grapes.

They were meant to be waving red and white flags but left the red at home

Careful!! No one can replicate what ANB brings I've heard! His transcendent running patterns and grass minding is too big an asset

Last year we looked really fit and were playing out games full of running. The phrase often used - 'Running on top of the ground' Eapecially in the last 2 games of our year (PF & GF) That was Geelong this year. Today (collectively) they were a metre in front of the Swans all day. And then they outran them constantly Us this year? We looked tired and listless before and after the North game. Full of running we could have beaten North by 20+ goals in that game. We had 74 inside 50 entries that day but couldn't finish. We had the skill & ability but not the legs No legs means 2nd & 3rd efforts dissipate, running hard to position disappears, all over the ground pressure is at a minimum, tackling intent and sticking tackles subsides etc etc So against the best teams, the game plan gets broken down The reasoning (why's & wherefore's) for that has been much debated here however, what our eyes told us is that we often looked and played as if tired (especially in the last quarters of many of the games) Even in the 10 game winning streak in the first half of the season So get the freshness back in the legs and we'll challenge again. We've got loads of talent (which we'll add to) but talent alone isn't enough (as we found out) You've got to have the legs

fwiw, from the sun: Melbourne says it wants two first-rounders and a second-rounder or two picks within 10 (including one within the first seven picks) for Jackson. https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/moneyball-afl-trades-all-the-latest-news-and-whispers-on-potential-2022-player-movement/news-story/1855f1401433f17306a756a3e7f5405a first time i've seen it said what we are chasing for dog

You hit every nail directly on the head. All I was thinking, you wrote. Signing a few of our big guns was a highlight for me as well. Bring in 2023.

Does the Hawthorn fallout include Karl Amon looking somewhere else other than Hawthorn? He'd certainly be handy to pair with Langdon's run, Bowey and Salem's ball use.

I think it is time For ALL Clubs to play games at Kardinia Park. The Red Carpet Draw must cease

Best team won the flag: - They improved their team adding Stengle - Had a good run with injury - Beneficial draw that enabled them to rest some of their players If Demons had Roos round 13 and West Coast in a later round, perhaps Max gets rested for 5 weeks instead of 3 to get over ankle injury and perhaps a few other players take a couple of weeks off rather than push on. Griffiths has coped a lot of flak, but he managed Lions in 2019/2020 where they had great injury runs re soft tissue, so he is possibly being unfairly judged on DL, when we don’t have all the facts. Yes, I’m well aware our 4th quarters sucked! You need a bit of luck across the AFL season, re injuries both in game and over season, who gets injured, draw, when you play teams (e.g. played Eagles first 2-3 rounds a big advantage when they were decimated by Covid), umpiring, so tough to go back to back!

Not sure it is the time slot that makes a difference! Comparisons to the 'night' games of 2020 and 2021 figures, aren't really vallid as they both had all Vic teams and Victoria was in lock down with a metro night curfew! Why are 2022 the lowest of all time: Beautiful spring day, other things to do Two smallish teams with one from interstate Neutral fans didn't care People have gone off football during the covid years Hopefully, they don't use the unusual circumstances of 2020 and 2021 to change the time slot.

The Pies need Grundy off their books in order to re-sign De Goey and get all their trade targets in. They see that as more desirable than keeping Grundy. That automatically decreases his true value significantly. You also haven't factored in that he's coming off 2 long term injuries, and the length of his contract, which is a negative. By my reckoning, his true value is a Pick 40. And no club in their right mind would take on Grundy's full contract and give up pick 35. The Pies would need to pony up a pick for that to happen. If you want a comparison of what a salary dump should look like, Russell Westbrook at the LA Lakers is a classic case. He has won a league MVP and relatively his personal accomplishments exceed that of Grundy. But he's on a bad contract and is a bad on court fit for the Lakers. Other clubs are asking for 2 1st round picks to take Westbrook off the Lakers hands. Westbrooks perceived talent is not a consideration, and that's how the Grundy deal should be negotiated.

When it comes to defensive system I have a laugh at Scott being heralded as a genius for dropping Stanley back. Like the world has forgotten Gawn’s done that for years. Im devastated to be losing Jacko when you see the impact Blicavs has a midfielder/ruck hybrid. That allows them do double down on the Stanley back even more without losing the ruck and they can play one less at the stoppages because after the hit out Blicavs is a mid again. Maybe the Gawn/Grundy combo can do something similar but I don’t think they’ll have the mobility at ground level and neither of them will be lining up as midfielders. Because the cats are so confident in always having the extra defender back and/or the first wave of help to appear they can play a jumbo backline that doesn’t have a heap of skills. Stewart’s a great kick and they have one of Tuohy or Duncan back as a distributor. Otherwise they play De Koning, Henry, Kolo, Zuthrie, Bews. 5 stoppers all above 186cm plus Stewart. Can we go with May, Petty, Turner, Rivers, Hibbo/Hunt/Smith and Lever with Salem or Bowey providing the kicking? I’m not sure we can or should, but it does create the ability to zone and switch as well as easy intercepts. Midfield defending is the Cats big edge I think. They have 3 on ballers who have played as taggers and defenders at some stage. Blicavs, Atkins and Guthrie. The Swans went 50/50 on clearances but the Cats won all but one of the Swans clearances back by forcing errors. Selwood and Danger did their thing, a bit like how Clarry and Tracc do their thing, but the Cats use their other mids to wreck to the opposition. It was a reminder of how important Viney, Harmes, Sparrow and if he’s in there Brayshaw can and should be in disrupting the opposition as much as winning their own ball. If we hire a new midfield coach this year I hope they can do a refresh they way Yze did in 2021

Jacob will ruin opposition's defences because he is so agile, great overhead and will give second and even third efforts if the ball comes to ground.

I don’t subscribe that the Cats would have decimated the Dees in the prelim or Gf. Dees were on top in every game in which we eventually faded and sadly lost in season 2022. Only did the game at Pussycat park on a Thursday night did we look off pace but that was at the Cats home and an MCG venue would have suited us. If we comparevDees v Cats 21 prelim - Dees annihilated Cats by 83 points - and Cats Gf 22 team. It was minus (-Holmes Ratugolea Henderson Menegola) included +Dekoning Stengle O’Connor Stewart. Sure some handy inclusions but I think our best is the equal of them. If we get the “forward connection” and our heads right, we are confident in 2023. We fear no one. Our best is capable of winning it.

What? And have 'Land close down?

I do not think we were proactive enough with the list at the end of last year, and probably rightly so at the time. It all looked set. A few players in our bottom six just didn’t step up this year, and we didn’t quite have the talent below them to push us to the same level. The decision now is do we need to target players and tinker the game plan. We smashed Geelong last year and they’ve bounced back emphatically through smart list management and adjustments to the way they play. It can be a quick turnaround

And half backs! Even Geelong who love to drop 15 players behind the ball most of the time will have Bews, Zuthrie or even Kolo try to seal off a half forward to prevent a defensive exit. We need to keep our slow play defensive grid but add more bite on transition

Agree with this. All this talk about managing players like Geelong did. They had easier opponents and an extra 1-2 wins than us and so were able to rest players. We hadn't locked up top 4 and couldn't afford to rest players, as our games were all against finalists or sides in contention for finals. The WC-North fortnight was probably the one time this year we had the chance to give a sore player or two a break, but I don't see what we were supposed to do in the last 8 weeks when our ladder position was on the line.

Lions coughed one up today against Richmond Top spot there for the taking

Incorrect. Premiership dreams are made of midfields, defensive two way running and contested possessions. Fritta kicked 6 in a GF last year.

I was not referring to finals. We were 10-0 and had West Coast and North back to back. We had ample opportunities to rest players who were not right. Lever kept hurting his foot. Salem was never right to return. Gawn rushed back. We absolutely could have rucked Jackson and Weideman for 5-6 weeks and given Gawn a proper rest. We could have debuted JVR and given Brown a month off leading into finals. We took risks that in hindsight cost us dearly.

People jump off quickly. It looked great last year. It looked great for the first 10 rounds this year. It looked good for the second half of the year for first halves but was not sustainable for four quarters. Just need to improve the list and unpick the reason for the second half fades. The worst thing we could do is try and make major change.

The club do always say that the trade period for them is not about winning individual trades, but is about the total sum of who we bring in vs who we let go

Sadly only 2.5 weeks of this left at most.

He’s 195cm, not 193cm. He’s also up from 91kgs to 95kgs. He’s a perfect size for a tall forward, especially given his aggression in the air. The club said he was drafted to play forward. He’s spent a year developing as a forward, shown he’s a natural forward, and is a really impressive prospect as a forward. We are crying out for quality forwards. If the club for some reason then shifted him to defense, where we have lots of depth, it would be lunacy and [censored] poor player management. If anything both he and Petty should play forward. Zero value in switching them at this stage of their careers.

Chris Scott is a fantastic coach, no doubt about it.

Stengles 50 goals made a massive difference

This is cult like behaviour. The AFL needs to undertake an independent review of each and every club, probably down to and including the feeder systems for junior players, to determine whether there are any other organisations with similar issues relating separately to both the welfare of indigenous players and all players as a whole. I am disgusted that this type of thing could be going on at our footy clubs. Edit: oh the review should include head office too, particularly considering the issues at AFL house a couple of years back.

no

Ahhh, the ol they were complacent reason. Just confirming they were complacent at 0-0 5-0 10-0 12-3 16-6