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PREGAME: SF vs Carlton


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8 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's an extremely simplistic view of things. People who were confident we would beat the Pies were proven to have every right to be confident considering the key stats not least of which being inside 50s and expected score. You're acting as though we could never have won on Thursday without a genuine kpf when clearly we could have.

In fairness to Old ...  what is the most significant feature/skill/ attribute of a GENUINE kpf ?? 

Id put  as #1 ..   the ability to kick multiple goals ...every game.

2 goals and we win.    KPF  wins the day ...no ???? 

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Confidence growing again. I think we'll beat the Blues. They are down McKay and Martin (2 important players for them), they went into their shell late in the game v Swans and should have coughed up the game. And we tonked the Swans in rd 23. We have the Blues measure.

We have to be switched on from the get-go. I know we pace ourselves and finish strongly but giving up leads and trying to chase down is so draining. Tear into the Blues from the first bounce, don't concede a lead and we will win.

And Viney will have a huge game. He's built for finals. The pies game was an aberration for him. He'll be back this week.

We'll be better on Friday night and win. Thens it's a PF at the Gabba and who knows.

We can still do this.

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10 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

Having just read all 22 pages, I'm glad I stayed off this thread for 48 hours. The amount of wrist slashing and doom and gloom is hilariously Demonland on the Saturday night of this posting, but would have been frustratingly mind melting any time before this. I've now processed some of my frustration from Thursday night and am ready to dig a little a deeper.

I do want to remind some Demonlanders though of the lead up to the QF, where there was hardly a negative word written and people were supremely confident of a win. I thought we'd win and am shattered that we didn't, but the way some have hugely flipflopped based on one result is truly emotional muppetry. Maybe set more realistic expectations going into this week?

Despite this, I can certainly understand the frustration, hence staying out of this thread for so long myself. However, if we can make the GF and it's against Collingwood, IMO we have them covered providing we kick straight. The atmosphere in the last quarter was very similar to much of the KB game in that Collingwood supporters were clearly packing themselves, because they saw their team being mauled at the contest and us generating multiple inside 50s and very good (and gettable) chances that should have been taken.

But what's done is done and we have a chance to redeem ourselves next week. I'm hoping we can conjure a bit of the 2015 Premiers about us this finals series (ie, lose the QF, run rampant in the SF, beat an interstate side away from home in the PF and smash the original winner of the QF in the GF). I'm more worried though about getting past Carlton than I am playing Brisbane, but Brisbane would be a tough test too.

One week at a time though. Selection will be fascinating again. My initial instinct was we'd have to bring in Grundy, but we may just resort to bringing in another runner (Jordon at this point) and bringing in Turner to play forward or back. And does Spargo come in for Chandler or Laurie? (don't bother answering this one, Picket) 

What I'd like most of all is, and I don't think we can win the flag unless this starts to happen, is for us to start the game properly. And I mean, we need our midfield, our engine room to start the game hard, fast and on from the first bounce. It's been at least 6 games since we started well. Our first quarters against Richmond (R20 with 3.5 to 5.4), North (R21 with 1.3 to 5.5!), Carlton (R22 with 1.0 to 1.3, but only due to our amazing defence and defensive system rather than our midfield winning clearance and territory), Hawthorn (R23 with 3.2 to 4.2), Sydney (R24 with 3.2 to 2.5) and then Collingwood (1.0 to 4.2). 

So we've won 1 first quarter in six weeks and that was arguably due to Sydney's inaccurate kicking. I can cop that in the H&A season, particularly if you know you've got fitness on your side and you're eventually running over teams, but in finals football, the pressure on every play is different and you don't want to spend the whole game chasing. 

Think back to the 2021 finals series. In the QF against Brisbane, we were 5.4 to 4.2 at quarter time. In the PF against Geelong, we were 5.3 to 1.0, and in the GF, we were 4.5 to 1.2. So we won all first quarters. That is what you need to do in finals. Simple as that.

If we're going to go any further this year, we need to start doing two major things.

1) We need to start winning first quarters and putting early scoreboard pressure on our opposition. This puts them under more pressure to score, knowing how difficult we are to break down defensively, and that in turn, increases our scoring chances from turnover. Which, btw, we kept Collingwood to 1 point less than our average of 41 points conceded from turnover. So our defence and defensive system was exceptional on Thursday night. Which brings me to...

2) Where we let ourselves down against Collingwood, and if we're to go further this year, is we need to convert our scoring chances from turnover. We've averaged 51.8 points from turnover this season and on Thursday, we kicked 3.7.25 (!) from turnover to Collingwood's 6.4.40. We lost the game in conversion from turnover. 

So our method is strong, there is no need to panic in terms of wholesale personnel changes. We have the two forced changes and possibly whether we could get more out of Spargo than we did Chandler, but I'm not convinced on that front and will trust the FD there.

If we win the first quarter and we convert our chances, we will be extremely difficult to beat and I'll go as far as saying, we won't be beaten if we do this.

Apologies for the book. Lap it up.

And thanks to @WheeloRatings for his brilliant score source stats in the Stats thread.

Great post. 

Even if we just level the first quarter we win this game IMO. It felt like it took 5 mins to even go inside 50.

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You want to win this ??

Time to get reinventive.

As someone suggested elsewhere... it's break glass time. We HAVE to discard, amputate the cancer if any hope to survive let alone win is desired.

I suggested earlier a little robbing of Peter to pay Paul....  well....

Grundy in.  He does most of the Rucking....and around ground stuff .

Tommy out of the square...   Max as a floating CHF type.  Note... he does NOT need to be true KPF...just needs to do what he is very capable of doing.....MARKING.   If he doesn't then our smaller fwds must crumb. Kozzi...I'm  looking at you... put the pilots licence away and shark packs...esp around Max. 

Three blokes who can mark a ball.. Max, Tommy and Fritta..   just dont get in each others way..   dont even have to lead... what you MUST do is separate their defence and open.up space for others to run.into/through.

For the purposes of the exercise...pockets DO NOT exist   ... you only go there if indeed the ball does and you're defending your fwd space.  They are never a means to an end..  They only looked ok when you had the likes of Milky bending balls off of either foot.. Hes not there...lets not do it..

Lower the eyes ....straighten up...  NO BOMBING.

If you do not do this we will not win. 

We need to give ourselves better % shots on goal. It's that simple.

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I think we need to play JJ for Gus, he's the next most capable mid we have and we need to re-establish the flexibility of pushing Petracca forward if we need to score to win.  Sparrow and JJ will need to play substantial midfield minutes.

We need to replace JVR with a tall, we were running with the minimum configuration of one ruck and 6 talls against Collingwood and we can't afford to go shorter.  None of the options are ideal.  With McKay out it's less imperative that we increase our defensive height, if he'd been playing I would have been in favour of Tomlinson.  I think we've got Grundy, Schache or the Hail Mary of Turner forward.  I think Grundy is the best of a limited set of options.  As good as Max was against Collingwood, I think his "take from the ruck clearance" giraffe kicks, while they gain territory, are counter-productive, because they are too easy to defend.  We need to rely on our gun midfield to win the clearance and kick more penetratingly.  Grundy in the ruck can't hurt here. Max's major value is his contested marking and aerial contest.  He needs to bring this, including forward, on Friday.  That's what he signed up for in the Gawndy deal and the rubber is hitting the road.

Laurie was off the pace in the full match heat against Collingwood.  Maybe he learned enough to stand him in good stead against Carlton and hopefully the sub won't be needed so early.  Frankly I would have recommended Harmes and his big body but I hear he did his hamstring in the scratch match.  Spargo is an alternative with his smart delivery and he may be able to get his hands on it more if he comes on later when the heat has gone out.  The partial Hail Mary of Turner as sub and then push Rivers into the midfield late has appeal to me.  We could also then try Smith back, Turner forward late if we need a spark.  I'm going with that.

Out: Gus, JVR, Laurie (sub)
In: JJ, Grundy, Turner (sub)

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11 hours ago, Binmans PA said:

Having just read all 22 pages, I'm glad I stayed off this thread for 48 hours. The amount of wrist slashing and doom and gloom is hilariously Demonland on the Saturday night of this posting, but would have been frustratingly mind melting any time before this. I've now processed some of my frustration from Thursday night and am ready to dig a little a deeper.

I do want to remind some Demonlanders though of the lead up to the QF, where there was hardly a negative word written and people were supremely confident of a win. I thought we'd win and am shattered that we didn't, but the way some have hugely flipflopped based on one result is truly emotional muppetry. Maybe set more realistic expectations going into this week?

Despite this, I can certainly understand the frustration, hence staying out of this thread for so long myself. However, if we can make the GF and it's against Collingwood, IMO we have them covered providing we kick straight. The atmosphere in the last quarter was very similar to much of the KB game in that Collingwood supporters were clearly packing themselves, because they saw their team being mauled at the contest and us generating multiple inside 50s and very good (and gettable) chances that should have been taken.

But what's done is done and we have a chance to redeem ourselves next week. I'm hoping we can conjure a bit of the 2015 Premiers about us this finals series (ie, lose the QF, run rampant in the SF, beat an interstate side away from home in the PF and smash the original winner of the QF in the GF). I'm more worried though about getting past Carlton than I am playing Brisbane, but Brisbane would be a tough test too.

One week at a time though. Selection will be fascinating again. My initial instinct was we'd have to bring in Grundy, but we may just resort to bringing in another runner (Jordon at this point) and bringing in Turner to play forward or back. And does Spargo come in for Chandler or Laurie? (don't bother answering this one, Picket) 

What I'd like most of all is, and I don't think we can win the flag unless this starts to happen, is for us to start the game properly. And I mean, we need our midfield, our engine room to start the game hard, fast and on from the first bounce. It's been at least 6 games since we started well. Our first quarters against Richmond (R20 with 3.5 to 5.4), North (R21 with 1.3 to 5.5!), Carlton (R22 with 1.0 to 1.3, but only due to our amazing defence and defensive system rather than our midfield winning clearance and territory), Hawthorn (R23 with 3.2 to 4.2), Sydney (R24 with 3.2 to 2.5) and then Collingwood (1.0 to 4.2). 

So we've won 1 first quarter in six weeks and that was arguably due to Sydney's inaccurate kicking. I can cop that in the H&A season, particularly if you know you've got fitness on your side and you're eventually running over teams, but in finals football, the pressure on every play is different and you don't want to spend the whole game chasing. 

Think back to the 2021 finals series. In the QF against Brisbane, we were 5.4 to 4.2 at quarter time. In the PF against Geelong, we were 5.3 to 1.0, and in the GF, we were 4.5 to 1.2. So we won all first quarters. That is what you need to do in finals. Simple as that.

If we're going to go any further this year, we need to start doing two major things.

1) We need to start winning first quarters and putting early scoreboard pressure on our opposition. This puts them under more pressure to score, knowing how difficult we are to break down defensively, and that in turn, increases our scoring chances from turnover. Which, btw, we kept Collingwood to 1 point less than our average of 41 points conceded from turnover. So our defence and defensive system was exceptional on Thursday night. Which brings me to...

2) Where we let ourselves down against Collingwood, and if we're to go further this year, is we need to convert our scoring chances from turnover. We've averaged 51.8 points from turnover this season and on Thursday, we kicked 3.7.25 (!) from turnover to Collingwood's 6.4.40. We lost the game in conversion from turnover. 

So our method is strong, there is no need to panic in terms of wholesale personnel changes. We have the two forced changes and possibly whether we could get more out of Spargo than we did Chandler, but I'm not convinced on that front and will trust the FD there.

If we win the first quarter and we convert our chances, we will be extremely difficult to beat and I'll go as far as saying, we won't be beaten if we do this.

Apologies for the book. Lap it up.

And thanks to @WheeloRatings for his brilliant score source stats in the Stats thread.

I think next time I will take your advice and steer clear of demonland for 48 hrs.

A great breakdown and I really enjoyed the read. 
 

Go Dees! 
 

PS.  Does anybody know when the prelim will be?

Edited by Demons11
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We lost by 7 points and had our chances, not 10 goals. Also key player knocked/taken out in first few minutes that upset team balance and shocked our players. Brayshaw not just a popular player but one with head trauma background - definitely unsettled our team in first quarter!

Carlton beat Swans by one goal and a suspect goal review at the “G” with lopsided supporter presence!

Demons beat Swans away at SCG by 21 points in round 24!

Demons can and should beat the Blues, and past performances have earnt our support not abandonment, as many supporters on Demonland have forgotten the prior eight week’s performances! Yes, I recall we lost to Blues with pispoor VAR!
Anyway, onwards and upwards Demons, will be at the “G” cheering you on loudly Friday night!

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A couple of amendments to my earlier team, which was based on Harmes playing and he's now out.

There are two big changes required this week.

The first is to drop the red mist - a term Garry Lyon dubbed on our dump long kicks three years ago before we turned it all around in 2021 and used the short low pass to pry open defences. Moore et al had a field day with the long bombs on Thursday night and Weitering, who loves to sag back, will be salivating at the prospect of such an assault. Unfortunately our best lateral thinker - Brayshaw - will be out and our best lead-up player Melky is out. Our best two clever chip kicks from 2021  weren't around either on Thursday - Spargo (overlooked) and the Christian Salem we used to know.

So the first thing to do is for Goody to have a long confidence-building chat with Salem and ask him to take the game on and take risks like the old Sallo did. And the other thing is to bring Spargo in and that means Chandler has to go - we can't have four vertically challenged guys in our forward line - it's the wrong balance. A chat with our biggest distributor Olly about looking inboard or for the lead-up option wouldn't hurt either.

The second change is to the forward make-up. Three players kicked 14 goals against Richmond six weeks ago, but none of them will be playing on Friday, so it's a tricky reconfigure. But here's my fifty cents worth.

We are all hoping that Grundy plays like a forward for once, but why are we doing that when we know it won't work because he's not quick enough to lead-up and he's not a great leaping aerialist. But he is a genuinely good ruckman - we saw that first hand when Gawny was injured. So, it's time to go back and playing him there and putting the pressure on the skipper to take a hit for the team. Gawn has to play a forward for almost the entire game. For once Goody has to make Grundy the main man and Gawn the key man. We all know Gawny will mark it if not held down, so Carlton will have to deploy Gov and Weitering close to him to stop him.

The second change to our forward mix has already been alluded to by Goody who made it clear that Angus going down, forced him to play Trac in the middle. It didn't actually because Rivers was an option but we chose to go small with the sub, when we knew the Pies were much taller than us. The advantage with Trac is that he demands the ball and means that players will be more willing to try the chip kick when he's around up there.

Ultimately the rest of the magnets don't matter so much as once you have your best two players down there, along with your two other livewire goalkickers - Pickett and Fritsch - you have a combo that will kick a winning total.

But for arguments sake - Jordon has to play and in the guts. And Rivers has to be given a run in there early as well. Sparrow plays hard on Walsh, Rivers tags Cripps and follows him when he goes forward.

A decision on whether to play Turner in our back mix is needed as well, although that depends on whether Durdin comes in for McKay. Carlton has bunch of quick tackling forwards who aren't much chop but because they all work their butts off, they are dangerous - Cunningham, Fogarty, Motlop, Owies and Cottrell. May takes Curnow, Hibberd takes Motlop and McVee takes the quickest who I think is Owies and if Durdin plays then Lever has a good match-up. With McKay out, TDK will play more as a forward so either Turner or Smith are required top counter his height a bit. 

And the choice of the sub has to be debated long and hard at the selection table.

There are a few choices - we can make Chandler the sub and hope that we don't lose a big to injury early. Or if we drop T-Mac as I suspect we will, then both he or Schache may be required as sub, because that means we gone mega small and having another small on the bench is as stupid as it was the other night.  The thing with T-Mac is that he's still smart, he's just way too slow. But coming on late his lack of pace is negated a bit because everyone is tired.

Out: Brayshaw, van Rooyen, T-Mac, Chandler.

In: Jordon, Grundy, Turner, Spargo

B: McVee May Hibberd

HB: Bowey Turner Lever

C: Langdon Rivers Hunter

HF: Smith Gawn Spargo

F: Pickett Petracca Fritsch 

Ru: Grundy Oliver Viney

Int: Sparrow (mid), Jordon (mid), ANB (fwd), Salem (def)

Sub: Chandler or T-Mac/Schache - decision based on whether Carlton goes big or small - Durdin or Hollands for McKay.

 

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1 hour ago, Billy said:

I know we can’t make to many changes but geez Salem has been really ordinary for over a month now

Yet he still gets games been saying the same for over 6 weeks He is injured in my view Groin coz he cannot kick hard nor turn

DONT PLAY INJURED PLAYERS GOODY

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My out of the box selection would be to play Salem in the Brayshaw role.

He's had a quiet few weeks to the point where I'd drop him if we had a suitable replacement. But we don't. 

So this how I think we need to get him involved more into the game but utilising his skill set especially going inside 50. 

We know on his day he can be very creative and classy but him stagnated down back simply isn't working for us and we need to somehow get him involved in the game.

Ball in hand he just sets us up well but because he's not getting enough of it it's effecting our ball movement from half back, so let's at least get him around the ball if need.

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45 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

You want to win this ??

Time to get reinventive.

As someone suggested elsewhere... it's break glass time. We HAVE to discard, amputate the cancer if any hope to survive let alone win is desired.

I suggested earlier a little robbing of Peter to pay Paul....  well....

Grundy in.  He does most of the Rucking....and around ground stuff .

Tommy out of the square...   Max as a floating CHF type.  Note... he does NOT need to be true KPF...just needs to do what he is very capable of doing.....MARKING.   If he doesn't then our smaller fwds must crumb. Kozzi...I'm  looking at you... put the pilots licence away and shark packs...esp around Max. 

Three blokes who can mark a ball.. Max, Tommy and Fritta..   just dont get in each others way..   dont even have to lead... what you MUST do is separate their defence and open.up space for others to run.into/through.

For the purposes of the exercise...pockets DO NOT exist   ... you only go there if indeed the ball does and you're defending your fwd space.  They are never a means to an end..  They only looked ok when you had the likes of Milky bending balls off of either foot.. Hes not there...lets not do it..

Lower the eyes ....straighten up...  NO BOMBING.

If you do not do this we will not win. 

We need to give ourselves better % shots on goal. It's that simple.

No bombing.. but kick it long to Max because he is floating and his strength is marking?

I'm confused. That looks good on the intercept... but when we are having repeat entries... as per every single game.. all of a sudden kicking to our strengths becomes an interpretation of long bombing...

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1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

You want to win this ??

Time to get reinventive.

As someone suggested elsewhere... it's break glass time. We HAVE to discard, amputate the cancer if any hope to survive let alone win is desired.

I suggested earlier a little robbing of Peter to pay Paul....  well....

Grundy in.  He does most of the Rucking....and around ground stuff .

Tommy out of the square...   Max as a floating CHF type.  Note... he does NOT need to be true KPF...just needs to do what he is very capable of doing.....MARKING.   If he doesn't then our smaller fwds must crumb. Kozzi...I'm  looking at you... put the pilots licence away and shark packs...esp around Max. 

Three blokes who can mark a ball.. Max, Tommy and Fritta..   just dont get in each others way..   dont even have to lead... what you MUST do is separate their defence and open.up space for others to run.into/through.

For the purposes of the exercise...pockets DO NOT exist   ... you only go there if indeed the ball does and you're defending your fwd space.  They are never a means to an end..  They only looked ok when you had the likes of Milky bending balls off of either foot.. Hes not there...lets not do it..

Lower the eyes ....straighten up...  NO BOMBING.

If you do not do this we will not win. 

We need to give ourselves better % shots on goal. It's that simple.

The question for me is by playing Grundy as first ruck we lose the dominance of Max around the ground. But Grundy is likely to at least break even and has the talent and drive to be outstanding.

Max fwd loses some of his dominance BUT creates a huge problem for oppositions and opens up opportunities for our small forwards.

Goodwin has a habit of not making big changes and will justify our loss v Coll as 'we won 2 and half qtrs we just couldn't kick straight.'

But again we started slow and allowed the Pies to bang on 3 goals.

FFS we have to change things or we will have the same result and be out in straight sets two years running.

For a start we need to fire them up before they get out on the ground. CHange the routine. This is big and we need them firing from the frst bounce. We can't afford to give other teams a 3/4 goal head start. We are fit and our final  qtrs are strong so jump out of the blocks and bring the heat.

Oh and we have to move the ball quickly. Our stagnant movement kills us.

Edited by jnrmac
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Petracca in his press conference pretty much confirmed he rather Gawn be the solo ruck instead of bringing in the extra ruckman for Gawny to spend time up forward.

Think that pretty much sums it up how the players must feel of the Gawn/Grundy situation. 

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14 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

My out of the box selection would be to play Salem in the Brayshaw role.

He's had a quiet few weeks to the point where I'd drop him if we had a suitable replacement. But we don't. 

So this how I think we need to get him involved more into the game but utilising his skill set especially going inside 50. 

We know on his day he can be very creative and classy but him stagnated down back simply isn't working for us and we need to somehow get him involved in the game.

Ball in hand he just sets us up well but because he's not getting enough of it it's effecting our ball movement from half back, so let's at least get him around the ball if need.

Don't mind this. Start him in the middle and he can even move back after the bounce.

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9 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

No bombing.. but kick it long to Max because he is floating and his strength is marking?

I'm confused. That looks good on the intercept... but when we are having repeat entries... as per every single game.. all of a sudden kicking to our strengths becomes an interpretation of long bombing...

I can see it can ..

Not all of Maxs marks are from long distance hail marys.  

It might be splitting hairs of a fashion..  but id be happy enough to see kicks to a contesr.. Max and 1/2 others from say 40/45 away as the % suggests he'll  get it.  If the smalls ars instructed to observe these incursions and be sure to be able to crumb or take the quick hand ball we can actually weaponise what has been our short coming.

Imho..  draw imaginary lines from the goalpost to respective points of the centre square.. now draw a line 40 m out from goal.line.   that is THE target drop zone for lower-eyed kicks.

In course of play whoever is best positioned should take the pass. The other two taller to spreas.. dilute the defenders.  If they spread not to far wide of the target zone the opposition doesn't dare not guard them.. 

Its not rocket science

We deliberately congest play up forward.. its not clever footy

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"Bombing" comes about because sides are too slow moving the ball in transition after a turnover. The opposition gets all their players back in the defensive half, and then when the ball carrier looks up (often under pressure) all they see is a congested forward line with no space to lead into. Port Adelaide had the same problem last night.

Move the ball faster and the forward line will open up more.

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15 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

My out of the box selection would be to play Salem in the Brayshaw role.

He's had a quiet few weeks to the point where I'd drop him if we had a suitable replacement. But we don't. 

So this how I think we need to get him involved more into the game but utilising his skill set especially going inside 50. 

We know on his day he can be very creative and classy but him stagnated down back simply isn't working for us and we need to somehow get him involved in the game.

Ball in hand he just sets us up well but because he's not getting enough of it it's effecting our ball movement from half back, so let's at least get him around the ball if need.

I don’t hate it, I’ve wanted Salo in the midfield for years but the issues are;

1. Salem’s struggles have to be related to fitness due to injury/illness impacting his preparation. Moving him on ball seems unwise when he’s already battling to run at half back.

2. Who comes in down back? Turner or Tomlinson? Disco provides a little athleticism, Tomlinson a little rebound, but neither really make the backline faster or more skilful.

If we stick with Tracc on ball alongside Viney and Clarry and can get buy with JJ and maybe Woey then the one I’d roll the dice with across half back would be Sparrow because his huge work rate would give us extra transition help and he’s strong in the air. Wouldn’t help with skills but Riv, Bowser and Judd are there for that.

Everything should be on the table but as it stands Tracc more forward and hope Viney, Clarry, Sparrow, JJ and others can break even in the middle is what I’d go with.

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2 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

We deliberately congest play up forward.. its not clever footy

I disagree whole heatedly 😁, its a method that has meant we have been in the top 4 for effectively 3 seasons...

Disappointing when it doesn't come off.. sure... the method is not the problem, our inaccuracy on the night was.

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On a couple of occasions in the 2nd qtr we had opportunities to kick to a 1 on 1 inside our fwd 50 but chose to hold up the play. It’s almost like we’re waiting for the fwd to be on his own completely. Fritsch is class and a great mark, wasted opportunities. 
 

When we do bomb it in at times our smalls are no where to be seen.

So frustrating, so much talent.

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10 minutes ago, Engorged Onion said:

I disagree whole heatedly 😁, its a method that has meant we have been in the top 4 for effectively 3 seasons...

Disappointing when it doesn't come off.. sure... the method is not the problem, our inaccuracy on the night was.

It's both the method and the misses. It is a combination of both.

We should have finished top of the ladder if our forward entries and structure were better and our accuracy in pressure games wasn't so bad.

I reckon it's both.

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