POSTGAME: Rd 06 vs Richmond

[old dee 22,848]

1 hour ago, Stiff Arm said:

Fair dinkum, its tiresome the posters who make a point of Weid not kicking enough goals as a key forward, next week some claim he's not doing enough despite being the leading goal scorer on the night

He may not be BOG every week, but he's improving and a better option than Tmac atm according to the match committee. I note that 2 match reports I read this morning had him amongst our best

Some people have to look for a negative amongst the positives

If he was drafted at 49 and called Sam Smith he would gone by now.

[DubDee 20,570]

1 hour ago, Stiff Arm said:

Fair dinkum, its tiresome the posters who make a point of Weid not kicking enough goals as a key forward, next week some claim he's not doing enough despite being the leading goal scorer on the night

He may not be BOG every week, but he's improving and a better option than Tmac atm according to the match committee. I note that 2 match reports I read this morning had him amongst our best

Some people have to look for a negative amongst the positives

Agreed. He did the job of a fwd. Took the opportunities that presented themselves when everyone else was missing

can certainly take more marks and impose himself more But if we back him he will make it

[Flower Magic 688]

2 hours ago, deejammin' said:

Brownlows go to the best player in a team with very few or no other great players. Do you honestly believe Wines was better than Clarry, Trac, Bont and co last year? No, he only had a Boak competing with him for votes so every time they won he got 2 or 3. Clarry is competing with Trac, Gawn, May, Jackson, Langdon for votes. He gets three tonight but each of the others takes 3 off him all of the previous 5 rounds. The problem with the Brownlow is it’s the antithesis of good footy. It rewards one-man teams, whereas a strong, unselfish team(although we went away from that up front last night) takes votes off each other, splitting it so none of them win. It’s a dumb award. 

So wrong in so many respects! Please look at the facts. Of the last 25 medallists (back to Shane Woewodin in 2000), 13 (more than half) came from teams that finished premiers, runners-up or in the top three on the ladder. Hard to see how these teams all had "very few or no other great players" or were "one-man teams" as you argue. There are four medallists and premiership winners in the same year in this period - Akermanis, Black, Bartel and Ablett - geez, those Brisbane and Geelong teams were pretty ordinary teams, full of passengers who wouldn't take votes off the eventual medallists! Then there's Mitchell, Swan, Goodes, Cousins, Buckley and, oh look, Woewodin who were medallists in runner-up teams. All one-man teams apparently. And none of them can have been "strong, unselfish" teams. Facts will always trump fanciful speculation.

[Flower Magic 688]

5 hours ago, Webber said:

Brownlow isn’t and never has been the measure of best player. Clarrie is IMO unlikely to win one. We do have the best measure of value however - the coaches votes award. He won it last year by a street. Stays fit and he wins it this year too. Was thinking also last night about players like Cotchin, Selwood, Judd, Greg Williams. All of them have/had a snipey, eye-gougey, boot-studdy, wild elbowy side to them. Makes players like Clarrie even better. (think also Nathan Jones, Scott Pendlebury, Marcus Bontempelli). If pushed, I reckon his closest recent comparison was Dane Swan at his best - superficially unremarkable, but utterly exceptional. 

But Dane Swan won a Brownlow, somewhat diluting your argument! Clarrie will win it this year though, get on him, I already have. 

[deejammin' 2,065]

21 minutes ago, Flower Magic said:

So wrong in so many respects! Please look at the facts. Of the last 25 medallists (back to Shane Woewodin in 2000), 13 (more than half) came from teams that finished premiers, runners-up or in the top three on the ladder. Hard to see how these teams all had "very few or no other great players" or were "one-man teams" as you argue. There are four medallists and premiership winners in the same year in this period - Akermanis, Black, Bartel and Ablett - geez, those Brisbane and Geelong teams were pretty ordinary teams, full of passengers who wouldn't take votes off the eventual medallists! Then there's Mitchell, Swan, Goodes, Cousins, Buckley and, oh look, Woewodin who were medallists in runner-up teams. All one-man teams apparently. And none of them can have been "strong, unselfish" teams. Facts will always trump fanciful speculation.

Interesting manipulation of the facts there. The game changes so quickly all the players you list played over a decade ago, a different era for football and the award, in the last ten years only one premier has won the Brownlow, Dustin Martin in 2017, the one exception to the trend I argue 100% stacks up. Sam Mitchell shared the Brownlow in a GF losing side with Trent Cotchin who did not make finals, 3!made prelims, one elimination final and four more missed finals entirely, the clear majority. I would argue only three times in the past decade the Brownlow represented the best player in a great team, Martin, Dangerfield and Mitchell, 8.5 other times the best teams took votes off each other and a good/great player from a lowly side won it. Here’s the facts:

2021 Ollie Wines Prelim loss

2020 Lachie Neale prelim loss

2019 Nathan Fyfe Did not make finals 

2018 Tom Mitchell Elimination final loss

2017 Dustin Martin GF winner and Norm Smith medalist 

2016 Dangerfield Prelim final loss

2015 Nat Fyfe did not play finals

2014 Matt Priddis did not play finals

2013 Gary Ablett Jnr Did not play finals

2012 Sam Mitchell (GF loss) Trent Cotchin did not play finals

Next time you want to lecture someone on the facts try using relevant, recent stats not relics of a bygone football era.

Edited April 25, 2022 by deejammin'

[jnrmac 18,953]

2 hours ago, The heart beats true said:

I think this is spot on. As supporters we need to have an expectation that teams want to be incredibly defensive against us. If they don’t play that way they get sliced open like GWS last week.

We are far, far from an ugly team - but we are going to get in a lot of scraps this year because on paper it’s the only way teams can stay in games. Every press conference this year Goodwin talks about patience. He knows it, the players know it, and we just need to remember it.

Teams change the way they play to try and beat us

If they kick the ball high into their fwd 50 they will lose. So they try to maintain possession switch play, do short kicks and wait until their fwds get back to man up ur defence.

Our game has been built around springboarding from defence so when we get even numbers it is harder for us to play our game.

Last night we had 1 or two shots on goal from the corridor. Richmond forced us to go wide on most occasions. Our radar was off hence the high number of points

[dworship 3,342]

55 minutes ago, old dee said:

If he was drafted at 49 and called Sam Smith he would gone by now.

OD that's a comment that says more about your long history of negativity than it does about Weid. It also says much about your memory. He could have been "gone" by now and on a much larger contract. Is it possible you're living in a "twilight" zone and don't realise we are the reigning Premiers?

[Flower Magic 688]

22 minutes ago, deejammin' said:

Interesting manipulation of the facts there. The game changes so quickly all the players you list played over a decade ago, a different era for football and the award, in the last ten years only one premier has won the Brownlow, Dustin Martin in 2017, the one exception to the trend I argue 100% stacks up. Sam Mitchell shared the Brownlow in a GF losing side with Trent Cotchin who did not make finals, 3!made prelims, one elimination final and four more missed finals entirely, the clear majority. I would argue only three times in the past decade the Brownlow represented the best player in a great team, Martin, Dangerfield and Mitchell, 8.5 other times the best teams took votes off each other and a good/great player from a lowly side won it. Here’s the facts:

2021 Ollie Wines Prelim loss

2020 Lachie Neale prelim loss

2019 Nathan Fyfe Did not make finals 

2018 Tom Mitchell Elimination final loss

2017 Dustin Martin GF winner and Norm Smith medalist 

2016 Dangerfield Prelim final loss

2015 Nat Fyfe did not play finals

2014 Matt Priddis did not play finals

2013 Gary Ablett Jnr Did not play finals

2012 Sam Mitchell (GF loss) Trent Cotchin did not play finals

Next time you want to lecture someone on the facts try using relevant, recent stats not relics of a bygone football era.

I'll remember your esteemed words when the Dees win the 2022 flag and Clarry wins the 2022 Brownlow. BTW, you don't need to shout.

[deejammin' 2,065]

24 minutes ago, Flower Magic said:

I'll remember your esteemed words when the Dees win the 2022 flag and Clarry wins the 2022 Brownlow. BTW, you don't need to shout.

I certainly hope so. I’m not shouting the font changed when I quoted stats, sorry for that. Last year is the quintessential example of why it’s unlikely Clarry will win. MFC had an all time team record for Brownlow votes with 96;

Clayton Oliver - 31, Christian Petracca - 23
Max Gawn - 16, Tom McDonald - 8
Jake Lever - 5, Jack Viney - 3
Luke Jackson - 3, Bailey Fritsch - 3
Kysaiah Pickett - 2, Steven May - 1
Christian Salem - 1

Port had 91: 

Ollie Wines - 36, Travis Boak - 25
Karl Amon - 11, Aliir Aliir - 7
Dan Houston - 5, Charlie Dixon - 3
Connor Rozee - 1, Zak Butters - 1
Mitch Georgiades - 1, Robbie Gray - 1

Only two Port players got 3 votes for a game to take votes off Wines, that was Boak five times and Amon once. Every other time they won Wines got three, there was no competition for him. 

Melbourne on the other hand had multiple 3s for Trac (5), Gawn (3) Jackson(1). All taking votes off Oliver which cost him the award. They also got more twos and pushed Oliver down to one or none (Lever x2, McDonald x3, Gawn x2, Trac x3) Oliver and Trac were both better than Wines last year, as was Bont, they were all hurt by playing in deeper teams.
It’s still a great honour to win a Brownlow, Wines had a great season but the award is flawed in that it doesn’t represent the best players in the competition as effectively any time your teammates play well, you get punished, even if your overall performance was clearly leagues best.

If I had to guess, Rnds 1 Trac,  Rnd 2 Trac or Jackson gets 3, Rnd 3 Oliver gets 3, 4 Gawn gets 3, 5 Oliver or Trac, 6 Oliver. Oliver is going well but A Brayshaw, Cripps and Steele will top their teams votes in every game and would probably be beating him right now, only because he plays for a better, deeper team. 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by deejammin'

[whatwhat say what 18,912]

who cares about the brownlow? it's voted on by the umpires!

[DeeSpencer 23,124]

5 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

If you were at the game last night you'd have seen that Richmond dropped extra numbers behind the ball. As did GWS. As did Port. This is the approach of teams who don't think they can beat us. 

To be fair it’s also the way we defend and a result of our cautious ball use up field.

We pick our moments for fast play forward and rarely switch to the open side. 

Apart from better midfield kicking I think we aren’t blocking for each other well as a forward group, and we don’t crumb very well. I’d like to see one if Spargs and Koz get deeper rather than 2 or 3 talls together. And Weid, Brown, Fritsch work on a blocking routine 

[He de mon 730]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

If he was drafted at 49 and called Sam Smith he would gone by now.

Ahh..you mean someone like Mitch Brown.

[loges 6,023]

3 hours ago, Stiff Arm said:

Fair dinkum, its tiresome the posters who make a point of Weid not kicking enough goals as a key forward, next week some claim he's not doing enough despite being the leading goal scorer on the night

He may not be BOG every week, but he's improving and a better option than Tmac atm according to the match committee. I note that 2 match reports I read this morning had him amongst our best

Some people have to look for a negative amongst the positives

On the contrary, I think a lot of people on here are so desperate for him to become a good player they overlook the flaws in his game and only look at the positives, he was ok last night , that doesn't mean he can't be critiqued. We all want him to succeed, I always hope any player who gets selected has a good game.

[Engorged Onion 9,262]

The Mongrel Review

[Pennant St Dee 11,257]

17 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Really want to get past Geelong 

I don’t care once we make the last game of the season and our season doesn’t end like there’s did in 2008

[Diamond_Jim 11,743]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

Teams change the way they play to try and beat us

Interesting comparing Richo's comments on Ch 7 to Nathan Buckley's on Fox.

Richo kept saying that Tigers needed to go fast whereas Buckley said they needed to go slow and send the ball into a four man contest where the ground ball players of Richmond could operate. Going fast just allowed the Melbourne defence to zone off and rebound

Both styles though allow a flooding of our forward line to a reasonable extent which means we need to take our marks (as we did last night) and convert

[Pates 9,536]

1 hour ago, whatwhat say what said:

who cares about the brownlow? it's voted on by the umpires!

Yep the Brownlow is becoming less and less the medal to win. Bet you if you asked which Trac preferred Norm Smith or Brownlow he’d take Norm Smith every time (and then hide it behind his premiership medal!). 

[old dee 22,848]

1 hour ago, dworship said:

OD that's a comment that says more about your long history of negativity than it does about Weid. It also says much about your memory. He could have been "gone" by now and on a much larger contract. Is it possible you're living in a "twilight" zone and don't realise we are the reigning Premiers?

None of the above I am just making a comment about his ability and the better ride that early draft picks get over later ones.

Read my comment how you like but that is how I see it.

[old dee 22,848]

1 hour ago, He de mon said:

Ahh..you mean someone like Mitch Brown.

Mitch brown was given the push from Essendon as they judge him NQR. IMO the Weid is NQR.

If he was a higher draft pick the same would have happened by now.

I canned Spargo, in a similar time frame he has proved me wrong.

When will the Weid?

[leave it to deever 15,327]

10 minutes ago, old dee said:

Mitch brown was given the push from Essendon as they judge him NQR. IMO the Weid is NQR.

If he was a higher draft pick the same would have happened by now.

I canned Spargo, in a similar time frame he has proved me wrong.

When will the Weid?

You make a fair point.

Perhaps if we hadn't recruited Bbb then Weid may have played more games and be a better player.

That aside, I think if he doesn't cement a spot this year and continue to be consistent then he may not be around next season.

I hope he proves me wrong.

[Roost it far 6,036]

In the last Richmond persisted with a spare player back all but ruling out a chance at victory. Their chaos game was no where to be seen

[Deemania since 56 6,132]

6 hours ago, monoccular said:

I was thinking just that last night - if eg Weed and Brown lead to opposite pockets and Fritter stayed home, in rotations and combinations of this, then surely defenders could not double team more than one of them.   

Maybe Goody is keeping this up his sleeve for September?

It is a very good point Mono. It would also add diversity to our 'straighter' goal shooting; that diversity might also lead to opposition backs separating, attempting to cover whilst not being in a situation where prediction helps their cause to spoil Demon forwards.

It makes better use of our smaller fleet and their skills, not just potential big fellas marking the ball prior to a set shot.

 

[old dee 22,848]

26 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

In the last Richmond persisted with a spare player back all but ruling out a chance at victory. Their chaos game was no where to be seen

They are now a fading team that knows they cannot beat the top teams without Dusty so they try to counter the other teams tactics in the hope that will get them home.

[MT64 1,084]

10 hours ago, 640MD said:

Mal.  Next you will be reading, Ray Shaws life storey. You need a bit of perspective.

But the game was never in doubt bar the very first 10 minutes. I did yell at the TV a couple of times but never at the umpire.  Stop reading that rubbish.

cheers mate,

Not likely to read Ray Shaw's life Rob. What I do have to read is Chadwick - a man of many parts. Saving it for my hospital trip soon.

[MT64 1,084]

10 hours ago, 640MD said:

Our neighbours are a bit further away than in Melb town and I had the door shut. And yes a wise woman 

Yay Annie.