Trade rumours

[DaveyDee 421]

5 hours ago, drdrake said:

we completely stuffed up our list from 2000-2013

Easy to say due to lack of results but maybe our opposition was just doing it better with more $$$$$$ available.

AFL football is a professional business - like it or hate it many supporters just cant grasp that fact. Sure in the 1960's when we where doing well it was an amateur sport but today its all about the money.  

[jackaub 1,402]

4 hours ago, DaveyDee said:

Easy to say due to lack of results but maybe our opposition was just doing it better with more $$$$$$ available.

AFL football is a professional business - like it or hate it many supporters just cant grasp that fact. Sure in the 1960's when we where doing well it was an amateur sport but today its all about the money.  

Nope we continualy selected the wrong players

The ability of the fd to pick duds amazed me

[djr 1,503]

1 minute ago, jackaub said:

Nope we continualy selected the wrong players

The ability of the fd to pick duds amazed me

Get a grip. Just look at the attrition rate at other clubs. Its no different.

[FireInTheBennelly 4,072]

Mods? Fork? Done?

[demoniac 1,333]

On 10/19/2017 at 3:57 PM, Bonkers said:

The initial offer was this years first rounder and next years second. They insisted on 2 first rounders.....

 

Its like arguing with a Brexiter!

[demoniac 1,333]

17 hours ago, jackaub said:

Nope we continualy selected the wrong players

The ability of the fd to pick duds amazed me

Duds like Oliver and Petracca?

[DeezNuts 624]

On 01/10/2017 at 7:58 PM, Franky_31 said:

If Rory Sloane was leaving Adelaide he would be talking to St Kilda 1st and Melbourne maybe last.

Hmmm, maybe it's time to send Viney Snr across to patch up the relationship. Wouldn't it be a total coup if we were able to snag him also  it would undoubtedly make crows fans hate us even more... brilliant!

[KingDingAling 3,758]

On 10/21/2017 at 11:40 AM, demoniac said:

Duds like Oliver and Petracca?

Yeah, we really went out on a limb with Petracca, LOL. FMD.

[KingDingAling 3,758]

On 10/20/2017 at 6:31 PM, jackaub said:

Nope we continualy selected the wrong players

The ability of the fd to pick duds amazed me

All footy clubs pick duds. We have picked more than others but there is a fair element of luck to early selections. Its much like horses, we see their breeding, and we see them sit 3 wide and win in weaker fields, but we still don't know how good they are until they step up in class. That upper class level for under 18's is AFL (the ultimate weight for age). We have to pick these players and speculate how good they will be playing against the best players in the land (not boys - but men). Keeping in mind that a very large portion of the pool don't replicate their junior form in the AFL. So its not an easy job.

[Demon Disciple 12,141]

3 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

All footy clubs pick duds. We have picked more than others but there is a fair element of luck to early selections. Its much like horses, we see their breeding, and we see them sit 3 wide and win in weaker fields, but we still don't know how good they are until they step up in class. That upper class level for under 18's is AFL (the ultimate weight for age). We have to pick these players and speculate how good they will be playing against the best players in the land (not boys - but men). Keeping in mind that a very large portion of the pool don't replicate their junior form in the AFL. So its not an easy job.

It's a pity that we aren't allowed to use the whip when they slacken off.

[Deemania since 56 6,640]

Given Jay Viney's enormous successes for the Dees as a player procurer, surely he should be sent to Adelaide, regularly across the coming season, to tempt Sloane to the mighty MFC. Not that Sloane is the ideal pick for our needs but he is close to that mark, I guess. The idea of almost the whole of Adelaide disliking the MFC is really quite attractive. When they rage in the press, they lose on game day with consistency. 

[CBDees 3,167]

29 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Given Jay Viney's enormous successes for the Dees as a player procurer, surely he should be sent to Adelaide, regularly across the coming season, to tempt Sloane to the mighty MFC. Not that Sloane is the ideal pick for our needs but he is close to that mark, I guess. The idea of almost the whole of Adelaide disliking the MFC is really quite attractive. When they rage in the press, they lose on game day with consistency. 

I didn’t know that we had Jay Viney on board as well as Todd. That is indeed good news!?

[jnrmac 20,090]

17 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

All footy clubs pick duds. We have picked more than others but there is a fair element of luck to early selections. Its much like horses, we see their breeding, and we see them sit 3 wide and win in weaker fields, but we still don't know how good they are until they step up in class. That upper class level for under 18's is AFL (the ultimate weight for age). We have to pick these players and speculate how good they will be playing against the best players in the land (not boys - but men). Keeping in mind that a very large portion of the pool don't replicate their junior form in the AFL. So its not an easy job.

There is no doubt that our 'process' - whatever it was - was a flawed one and that our low picks were materially worse than others over the period when C Cameron and BP were in charge. Interestingly our high picks I would say (without any qualitative evidence) have probably been above average...

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,833]

On Friday, October 20, 2017 at 1:22 PM, DaveyDee said:

Easy to say due to lack of results but maybe our opposition was just doing it better with more $$$$$$ available.

AFL football is a professional business - like it or hate it many supporters just cant grasp that fact. Sure in the 1960's when we where doing well it was an amateur sport but today its all about the money.  

Many/most would sat that Melbourne's success in the 60s was due to us being the dominant  $$$ club.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,833]

On Friday, October 20, 2017 at 5:31 PM, jackaub said:

Nope we continualy selected the wrong players

The ability of the fd to pick duds amazed me

 

On Friday, October 20, 2017 at 5:33 PM, djr said:

Get a grip. Just look at the attrition rate at other clubs. Its no different.

I'm mostly with Jackaub here.  How many first round picks from that period 2007 - 2012ish are still at the club?  During this time, we had prime opportunity to get the best talent in the land with our first round picks, (be that somewhat compromised when GW$ and GC started to come on board).  During comparable periods of bottoming out Hawthorn picked up players like Hodge, Lewis, Roughead and Franklin who all went on to become core players in premiership teams.

It wasn't nessasrily just about picking the right tallent though for Melbourne, but as much about putting in place the right devolpment environment once we got them.  The poor management of Jack Watts from day dot, throwing him in the deep end with all the expections is well documented and even Jack Trengove may still be a core part of our successfull team, had we had medical, fitness and coaching team that refused to let him run himself into the ground.  With the right support around him Liam Jurrah may have been superstar that surpassed the feats of Rioli. ... I could go on.

Huge turn around in all this since the arrival of PJ and Roos.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[hemingway 7,627]

1 hour ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

 

I'm mostly with Jackaub here.  How many first round picks from that period 2007 - 2012ish are still at the club?  During this time, we had prime opportunity to get the best talent in the land with our first round picks, (be that somewhat compromised when GW$ and GC started to come on board).  During comparable periods of bottoming out Hawthorn picked up players like Hodge, Lewis, Roughead and Franklin who all went on to become core players in premiership teams.

It wasn't nessasrily just about picking the right tallent though for Melbourne, but as much about putting in place the right devolpment environment once we got them.  The poor management of Jack Watts from day dot, throwing him in the deep end with all the expections is well documented and even Jack Trengove may still be a core part of our successfull team, had we had medical, fitness and coaching team that refused to let him run himself into the ground.  With the right support around him Liam Jurrah may have been superstar that surpassed the feats of Rioli. ... I could go on.

Huge turn around in all this since the arrival of PJ and Roos.

Injury management always worry me, particularly the tendency to try and get players back on the park as soon as possible.

There is certainly a case that Trengove was mismanaged until the Richmond medical staff discovered the full nature of his foot problem. The fact that our medical staff missed the diagnosis was embarrassing and pretty poor form. It could also be said to have ruined Jacks career. 

I agree that we appear to have a more professional show these days.

However, the management of Viney's foot injury this season was questionable, particularly given the circumstances. We needed to be thinking of the long-term and not make decisions that could jeopardize his recovery. Jack has a further 7-10 years left if he looks after his body. 

It  may be that other player injuries were well handled by the club, however, the Viney issue raised alarm bells for me.  

We will not progress if we do not learn lessons from the past.  Injury management is so important these days that you need to have the very best people. However, you also need to be thinking of the long-term rather than be influenced by the pressures of the day.

With all due respect to club doctors, the very best doctors do not become footy club doctors.  And indeed, not always the best specialists are used by club doctors in the case of specialist referral. 

There is a case to be had that the long-term interest of the player and the club would see diagnosis and management at arms length to the club.  That perhaps is unrealistic with an obvious downside, however, in certain circumstances, it would be prudent to have a second and independent assessment made by doctors, specialists and other health professionals that are not employed, contracted or commonly used by the club. 

 

[old dee 23,792]

16 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Injury management always worry me, particularly the tendency to try and get players back on the park as soon as possible.

There is certainly a case that Trengove was mismanaged until the Richmond medical staff discovered the full nature of his foot problem. The fact that our medical staff missed the diagnosis was embarrassing and pretty poor form. It could also be said to have ruined Jacks career. 

I agree that we appear to have a more professional show these days.

However, the management of Viney's foot injury this season was questionable, particularly given the circumstances. We needed to be thinking of the long-term and not make decisions that could jeopardize his recovery. Jack has a further 7-10 years left if he looks after his body. 

It  may be that other player injuries were well handled by the club, however, the Viney issue raised alarm bells for me.  

We will not progress if we do not learn lessons from the past.  Injury management is so important these days that you need to have the very best people. However, you also need to be thinking of the long-term rather than be influenced by the pressures of the day.

With all due respect to club doctors, the very best doctors do not become footy club doctors.  And indeed, not always the best specialists are used by club doctors in the case of specialist referral. 

There is a case to be had that the long-term interest of the player and the club would see diagnosis and management at arms length to the club.  That perhaps is unrealistic with an obvious downside, however, in certain circumstances, it would be prudent to have a second and independent assessment made by doctors, specialists and other health professionals that are not employed, contracted or commonly used by the club. 

 

I have concerns as well Ernest however if they did not get injured in the first place it would be a help.

He had a good run in 2016 and a terrible run in 2017. A couple of less serious injuries and we would have played finals in 2017 and I mean finals.

[jnrmac 20,090]

3 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

 

I'm mostly with Jackaub here.  How many first round picks from that period 2007 - 2012ish are still at the club?  During this time, we had prime opportunity to get the best talent in the land with our first round picks, (be that somewhat compromised when GW$ and GC started to come on board).  During comparable periods of bottoming out Hawthorn picked up players like Hodge, Lewis, Roughead and Franklin who all went on to become core players in premiership teams.

It wasn't nessasrily just about picking the right tallent though for Melbourne, but as much about putting in place the right devolpment environment once we got them.  The poor management of Jack Watts from day dot, throwing him in the deep end with all the expections is well documented and even Jack Trengove may still be a core part of our successfull team, had we had medical, fitness and coaching team that refused to let him run himself into the ground.  With the right support around him Liam Jurrah may have been superstar that surpassed the feats of Rioli. ... I could go on.

Huge turn around in all this since the arrival of PJ and Roos.

Somewhat? Couldnt have picked a worse time to bottom out.

Having said that check out the talent in the first few drafts for GWS and GC to see what players have left.....we weren't alone.

 

[daisycutter 29,616]

3 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Many/most would sat that Melbourne's success in the 60s was due to us being the dominant  $$$ club.

not really

was more due to clever and tireless recruiting (caldwell) and the attraction of the 'g' where we were the only tenant

the money was peanuts

[hemingway 7,627]

38 minutes ago, old dee said:

I have concerns as well Ernest however if they did not get injured in the first place it would be a help.

He had a good run in 2016 and a terrible run in 2017. A couple of less serious injuries and we would have played finals in 2017 and I mean finals.

Often collision or contact injuries are unavoidable and bad luck but leg injuries such as calf, hamstring and also those of the foot are normally overuse injuries caused by training load and weekly matches.

With running injuries, most athletes know when they are walking the line. Often a twinge or two can be the precursor of a  more serious injury.

Despite modern injury  management techniques, more often than not, time is the only effective healer. It is difficult to cheat the body and its own natural repair mechanism.  Given the competitiveness of players and their determination to continue to play irrespective of injury concerns, it is important that there are others that can tell a player to "take a break". 

This comes down to the club having the willingness to rest players during the season, particularly the hard trainers like Viney and those who are clocking up the kilometers each week.  It is where the depth and quality of your list becomes important but also the strength of coaching staff to make the right call. 

[Lucifers Hero 39,820]

1 hour ago, old dee said:

I have concerns as well Ernest however if they did not get injured in the first place it would be a help.

He had a good run in 2016 and a terrible run in 2017. A couple of less serious injuries and we would have played finals in 2017 and I mean finals.

Or as earnest says better injury management.  Gawn, Salem, Jones, Watts, Tyson and Garlett had soft tissue injuries.  Viney and Hogan and bone injuries.  Not one of them came back thru Casey and with the exception of Jones were 'rushed' back into the team.  Jones was given 'extra' time to recover and not one of the other players was as good post injury as before, even after a few games under their belt to blow out the cobwebs and get match fitness back

So I would say better injury/game management "and we would have played finals in 2017 and I mean finals".  The coaches and the medicos rolled the injury dice and lost.  No finals!

To come back to thread title - should we trade our medical/fitness staff!!

 

[old dee 23,792]

9 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Or as earnest says better injury management.  Gawn, Salem, Jones, Watts, Tyson and Garlett had soft tissue injuries.  Viney and Hogan and bone injuries.  Not one of them came back thru Casey and with the exception of Jones were 'rushed' back into the team.  Jones was given 'extra' time to recover and not one of the other players was as good post injury as before, even after a few games under their belt to blow out the cobwebs and get match fitness back

So I would say better injury/game management "and we would have played finals in 2017 and I mean finals".  The coaches and the medicos rolled the injury dice and lost.  No finals!

To come back to thread title - should we trade our medical/fitness staff!!

 

To answer your question how would we know. I have no idea that is for a couple at the top of the FD to decide and it would appear they are happy. So we plough on and pray they know what they are doing.

[DaveyDee 421]

4 hours ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Many/most would sat that Melbourne's success in the 60s was due to us being the dominant  $$$ club.

It is all relative, so yes suppose you could say back in the 60's the MFC was the dominant $$$ club. However, today 5-6 teams in Victoria alone have gone past us. Plus some of the interstate teams are $$$ financial powerhouses of the AFL on a national level.

As a football club our core supporters/members have shown an amazing amount of resilience - but we have failed time after time to invest in our football departments. Resilience is great but that does not win you premierships. 

All I can say is thank god for Andrew Demetriou, The AFL and Peter Jackson who stood strong against a "supporter/members" based board running the MFC.

We are now stabilising - but are we ready to stand on our own two feet? Time will tell. 

[The Chazz 4,077]

2 hours ago, hemingway said:

Often collision or contact injuries are unavoidable and bad luck but leg injuries such as calf, hamstring and also those of the foot are normally overuse injuries caused by training load and weekly matches.

With running injuries, most athletes know when they are walking the line. Often a twinge or two can be the precursor of a  more serious injury.

Despite modern injury  management techniques, more often than not, time is the only effective healer. It is difficult to cheat the body and its own natural repair mechanism.  Given the competitiveness of players and their determination to continue to play irrespective of injury concerns, it is important that there are others that can tell a player to "take a break". 

This comes down to the club having the willingness to rest players during the season, particularly the hard trainers like Viney and those who are clocking up the kilometers each week.  It is where the depth and quality of your list becomes important but also the strength of coaching staff to make the right call. 

Ernest, I wonder if the possibility of making the season a 26 week season (24 games, plus 2 byes), similar to that of the NRL, would make AFL clubs look at injury/player management differently?  NRL rep players don't play the regular season game directly before the SOO, and depending on how they pull up, some won't play the game directly after SOO.

Having that extra couple of games up their sleeves could give AFL clubs that bit of extra time to manage its players, while having an extra couple of games to "get a game back" if they are to dropout when players are being rested.

Just a thought and discussion point.  I'm fairly neutral about it, but it could be argued that due to the current length of the season, AFL clubs might not feel they have enough time to rest players at the fear of dropping too far off the pace and not having enough time to catch up.  

[bing181 9,240]

8 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

not one of the other players was as good post injury as before,

Simply not true. Hogan in particular played arguably his best match ever first game back. Tyson had 29 and 30 possessions first 2 games back, amongst his best for the year, Garlett kicked 3 in his first match back and his highest possession game for the year was the week after that, and even Gawn: 42 HO and 15 disposals first game back, and his best game for the year by a long way came in the latter part of the year. 

You see what you want to see and make it fit the story, all the while ignoring the poor games by any/all of these players BEFORE they were injured - not to mention the overall team performance where everyone tailed off in the latter part of the year, injured or not.