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Hawks racism allegations (merged thread)


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12 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Typically one sided take from you.

The other side of the coin is just as bad, if not worse, where victims have either not been heard, not been believed or not even spoken out due to those first two factors. That's what systemic racism does.

It's not as black and white as you want to make it.

Or as you want to make it.
You've just picked your side of the coin as usual without facts or context, just hearsay.
Ever had a mate who was seeing a toxic nutcase and told him he'd be better off without 'em?

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I believe in the presumption of innocence, but I am over the days of the presumption of lying and duplicity. 

Let’s get to the bottom of this - because it may have ruined peoples lives. 

And that’s when, yes - it will ruin a few livelihoods. 

That’s called consequences.

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32 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

Or as you want to make it.
You've just picked your side of the coin as usual without facts or context, just hearsay.
Ever had a mate who was seeing a toxic nutcase and told him he'd be better off without 'em?

I literally just explained how there's two sides, but ok...

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54 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Typically one sided take from you.

The other side of the coin is just as bad, if not worse, where victims have either not been heard, not been believed or not even spoken out due to those first two factors. That's what systemic racism does.

It's not as black and white as you want to make it.

Believing in the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise? Imagine the fallout if Clarkson, Fagan and Co are found not guilty of these accusations (albeit unlikely).

Yes sadly racism in many forms still exists and the victims in this case have every right to pursue justice and if successful we do have deeper problems in football.

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1 minute ago, Jibroni said:

Believing in the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise? Imagine the fallout if Clarkson, Fagan and Co are found not guilty of these accusations (albeit unlikely).

Yes sadly racism in many forms still exists and the victims in this case have every right to pursue justice and if successful we do have deeper problems in football.

As rpfc put it perfectly above: "I believe in the presumption of innocence, but I am over the days of the presumption of lying and duplicity."

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1 hour ago, Jibroni said:

Im hoping the outcome from all this is the issue of one sided disclosure needs to stop, not just in football.

Too many innocent lives across numerous areas of society have been destroyed by accusations which were later disproved. The strictest of confidentiality should be legally enforceable until all parties have been given their rights of due process before any public disclosure is made. The alleged 'victims' are protected by anonymity whilst the accused are publicly named, im not sure how that is fair process?

I’m sorry to be the one to tell you this but we are moving strongly and unwaveringly toward the exact opposite of what you hope. The media are less accountable now than they have ever been. They use ‘clever’ wording to ensure that they are just relating other’s reports or opinions.

 Most so called journos are little more than keyboard warriors with a following. On radio and television they are rarely actually journos, they are ‘personalities’. 

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11 hours ago, Neitz the Great said:

As someone married to a person of colour, albeit Indian not First Nation. I have forever seen the sacrifice and hardship that she has faced due to her skin colour, religion and overall appearance.  
 

This is a current day problem, and not one “in the past”. People of colour go through daily racism and ignorance due to their appearance, culture and beliefs despite their education and intelligence. 
 

My partner is a well respected lawyer and an amazing wife and it pains me to see what she goes through on the daily. I cannot begin to understand what these people have been forced to go through. People saying these are alleged accusations, I ask what possible benefit these First Nation people would have gained from making false accusations. This is a part of Australian society, and something that is not new or different for people of colour to face. 
 

As Gerard said on AFL 360, it is the stolen generation repeated. 
 

People of colour have and will continue to be used for entertainment purposes only. It is time the world takes a stance, and that people of colour, or in reality, non-westernised people, are truly appreciated for the value they bring to society besides their entertainment capacity. 
 

I’m sorry if I’m emotional, this is just a topic that speaks so true to me through second hand experience. I have shed some serious tears today running through this topic and hearing the press releases. DO BETTER AUSTRALIA. 
 

With much love,

 

Tom

Neitz the great - Sorry for the hard times your wife goes through! The only positives that can come out of these situations is awareness and education. Let’s hope things improve dramatically in years to come. 
 

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36 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Neitz the great - Sorry for the hard times your wife goes through! The only positives that can come out of these situations is awareness and education.

Sorry 1964_2, if I appear to be jumping down your throat without reading all that you have written but awareness and education by themselves have failed. The victims need to have their claims explicitly accepted as true, see a negative consequence for the perpetrators and redress/compensation for themselves.  Football, ADF, my former Govt employer have been saying that they will change for decades but do not.  I point out that the Collingwood report was called "Do Better" rather than "We Truly Were B*stards".  The current Hawthorn Pres pointed out that discrimination exists in throughout Australian society but not that the behaviour of his club sickens him.

 

PS don't think that I will bother with the GF after the revelations.  Hold out for the Women's team.

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7 minutes ago, redandbluemakepurple said:

Sorry 1964_2, if I appear to be jumping down your throat without reading all that you have written but awareness and education by themselves have failed. The victims need to have their claims explicitly accepted as true, see a negative consequence for the perpetrators and redress/compensation for themselves.  Football, ADF, my former Govt employer have been saying that they will change for decades but do not.  I point out that the Collingwood report was called "Do Better" rather than "We Truly Were B*stards".  The current Hawthorn Pres pointed out that discrimination exists in throughout Australian society but not that the behaviour of his club sickens him.

In complete agreement.

More definitely needs to be done, including accountability for perpetrators.

I guess I meant separate to the investigation and formal process, hopefully it also wakes some more people up. But your point is a good one, just hoping for things to improve is not doing enough. 
 

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Just now, gOLLy said:

Very interested in the other side of the story.

I think there is little doubt there will be variances in the story from the other side. Very interested in how they are going to navigate an outcome if there is a lack of evidence as to which version is the truth. 

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I wonder whether each of these three players were at the club at different times over that ten year period without any overlap and therefore unlikely to have any connection with each other. If that happens to be the case and they have each been contacted independently as part of the review in order to hear about their experience at HFC as an indigenous player then it makes it very hard for someone to refute. I can see this being taken out of the hands of the AFL sooner rather than later considering the nature of the allegations. The question will then be asked as to how long the two senior coaches are stood down for whilst justice takes its course. 

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19 hours ago, ding said:

Yep, PM me the link, i will be happy to read it.

BTW we were not talking about why Indigenous Aussies have a distrust of police, we were clearly discussing RPFC's suggestion that white Ex-Coppers couldnt possibly give them a fair hearing. Do you believe that is the case?

Let it go champ

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I reckon the media and public have gotten into a frenzy over specific details by one side without any broader context.  I'm bewildered how Hawthorn conducted such a review and reported its findings to the AFL without interviewing Clarkson and Fagan as part of the process. I accept the allegations are serious and should be properly considered but that they have made their way into the public domain before Clarkson and Fagan have had a chance to respond to the allegations. What happens to their reputations if it turns out the players made things up?

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3 hours ago, rpfc said:

I believe in the presumption of innocence, but I am over the days of the presumption of lying and duplicity. 

Let’s get to the bottom of this - because it may have ruined peoples lives. 

And that’s when, yes - it will ruin a few livelihoods. 

That’s called consequences.

The consequences have already been highlighted by bringing these matters out in to the open. Livelihoods have been effected for all to see already. 

Your only looking at this from one side. 

Yes both sides will have their day in the commission that's being setup but consequences work on both sides remember before or after legality or the decision making is finalised. 

There  may very well be no winners from this sporting tragedy, especially if there are no learnings by the AFL (and it's Clubs )  from the Adam Goodes, Adelaide Camp and Pies "do better" cases.

BTW there has been no dispute in these past cases in the AFL about the level of racism and hurt created so I am very surprised at the numbers here Querying the honesty in the present case.

We only need to look at the racist comments Kossie has faced so far in his career that no one seems to invent these  actions of a racist nature. 
 

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9 hours ago, DEE fence said:

This is so much worse than the supplements saga, it is properly evil, having a baby, either as a young mum or dad is a profoundly vulnerable time that is also super stressful, to pressure someone one way or another, and not support their decision based upon a commercial interest is so sick. I found out about this from my Hawthorn mate who has good connections to the board. He believes the report and he said Cyril has been waiting for a long time to fully give his side of the story. He is passionately obsessive about the Hawks and about as conservative as you can get. He mentioned that Clarko was known for being brutal (his words) with young players. He didn’t connect Cyril directly but thinks it likely. He is bereft and was making no excuses, however I would note that Hawthorn commissioned the report, fair play to them for doing so, and everyone deserves their day in court. I would not make any assumptions about what other players knew or did not know.

I like that the AFL appointed a KC to lead the inquiry, that is a fair way to proceed. I actually think the AFL is moving the ball on Race in the right direction for the country, not perfectly, but ever since Nicky Winmar things have been getting better for the conversations we have. When you look at the totality of what has happened in sport you can see that Racism has been a stain but at least some of the people involved have owned the problem ( maybe kicking and screaming but still). I love Australia, best country by far for so many reasons, and acknowledging that it has a dark history to resolve changes none of my love. I am a white Australian ex cop who has indigenous family members. My father who was my hero, was an utter racist(hard to acknowledge), and yet none of his five sons continued that hate, which gives me huge optimism for Australia.  @Neitz the Great I have your back.

 

These references to King's Counsellors must be some kind of freudian slip; isn't it they who got us into this two nations confusion in the first place.

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14 minutes ago, chookrat said:

I reckon the media and public have gotten into a frenzy over specific details by one side without any broader context.  I'm bewildered how Hawthorn conducted such a review and reported its findings to the AFL without interviewing Clarkson and Fagan as part of the process. I accept the allegations are serious and should be properly considered but that they have made their way into the public domain before Clarkson and Fagan have had a chance to respond to the allegations. What happens to their reputations if it turns out the players made things up?

Chookrat you have asked about Clarke and Fagan's reputations. Firstly have you read about the harrowing and mentally challenging effects already bestowed upon the players and families that have played out?  There will need be proof to back up there evidence so far so I don't presume your " made up things story " will be the result you envisage. 

Consider this if the result goes the other way ie not made up but apportion of guilt   Or no effective result then all will be in the same boat with no satisfactory closure? 

The AFL better sharpen their responses up to racial matters as they have ignored or taken no action at the others basically ie Goodes, Pies, And Crows. 

Sorry to add more complications CR but your post was very flimsy and underwhelming re consequences which are mostly and generally two sided! 

Lastly like all others who are judged innocent after legal complexities they will move on or perish depending upon their mental strength. There are more avenues of assistance now for help if needed. Jo hi Thank goodness. 

And if there is guilt then I imagine there is a community course and advice to uptake or attend to be more aware of inappropriate actions if they wish to continue at some stage. 

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17 hours ago, BoBo said:

It’s a very effective mode of deflection, you throw the accusations you’re guilty of at your opponent to skew discourse.

Murdoch press saying the ABC has an agenda is the definition of this tactic.

Yanks are cutting off the head, and we are cutting off the tail.

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2 hours ago, chookrat said:

I reckon the media and public have gotten into a frenzy over specific details by one side without any broader context.  I'm bewildered how Hawthorn conducted such a review and reported its findings to the AFL without interviewing Clarkson and Fagan as part of the process. I accept the allegations are serious and should be properly considered but that they have made their way into the public domain before Clarkson and Fagan have had a chance to respond to the allegations. What happens to their reputations if it turns out the players made things up?

Completely agree. Destabilises 2 other clubs, and shifts the attention away from the hawks as well 

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2 hours ago, 58er said:

The consequences have already been highlighted by bringing these matters out in to the open. Livelihoods have been effected for all to see already. 

Your only looking at this from one side. 

Yes both sides will have their day in the commission that's being setup but consequences work on both sides remember before or after legality or the decision making is finalised. 

There  may very well be no winners from this sporting tragedy, especially if there are no learnings by the AFL (and it's Clubs )  from the Adam Goodes, Adelaide Camp and Pies "do better" cases.

BTW there has been no dispute in these past cases in the AFL about the level of racism and hurt created so I am very surprised at the numbers here Querying the honesty in the present case.

We only need to look at the racist comments Kossie has faced so far in his career that no one seems to invent these  actions of a racist nature. 
 

No mate, you have missed his/her point. No matter what % chance you think that the story is accurate, we have still only heard one side and haven’t finished a proper investigation. Therefore the trashing of reputations does need to wait until this process is finished. 

The post is not minimising the trauma and tough times these families appear to have gone through - it is just making the point that if Fagan/Clarko are actually innocent they most likely already have damaged reputations that won’t be repaired. (Due to media/public already forming an opinion without waiting for the proper process/ both sides)
 

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3 hours ago, chookrat said:

I reckon the media and public have gotten into a frenzy over specific details by one side without any broader context.  I'm bewildered how Hawthorn conducted such a review and reported its findings to the AFL without interviewing Clarkson and Fagan as part of the process. I accept the allegations are serious and should be properly considered but that they have made their way into the public domain before Clarkson and Fagan have had a chance to respond to the allegations. What happens to their reputations if it turns out the players made things up?

Its important to note the process.

HFC asked the external Consultants to review the experiences of its past and current indigenous players.  It was effectively a fact finding mission.  It didn't ask them to talk to HFC staff or non-indigenous players.

It seems the intention was that once they received the Consultant's report they would act on it and if necessary investigate further.  They decided to involve the AFL as they probably weren't equipped to undertake investigations which is fair enough. 

In the meantime the ABC journalist interviewed some of those players and wrote his story on the experiences the three players and families related to him. 

That ABC story would have blindsided everyone.  We don't know how things would have proceeded without it.

Then it all hit the fan.

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