Three identifiable problems

[layzie 34,015]

If what we as supporters think has no effect on the players then why the heck do we turn up to support them each week?

Dont get me wrong I know it's not all about us but to say it has no effect whatsoever isn't true.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

Very good.

It'd be incredibly boring to be an on the fence supporter, always believing it'll work out. 

Strangely enough the players seem to think that way too.

Imagine if you were head coach Wiseblood. You'd still have Garland running around believing that he's doing a great job.

 

 

 

Oh, Steve.  Where is that sense of humour?  Or is being arrogant and pompous all you know how to do?  

It must be tough, standing up there on your pedestal above us peasants while you preach to us of your brilliant, unrivaled knowledge of our game.  Every time I see you post it reminds me of this:

Have a super summer, big fella.

[dimmy 1,308]

So far we have alluded that :

OMac:  is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had

TMac :is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had

Jack Watts: is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had. I thought he was our only Fwd in the first half

Angus B :is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had. The kid has come back from nearly having to leave the game altogether. He will be good

Dom Tyson : is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had because he cannot kick it straight

Clarrie :is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had  because he does not handball it far enough

ANB : Because he is not fashionable . He is a developing player

Hibberd : His disposal on Saturday was not good.

Max Gawn : even though he won more hitouts than the Collingwood combined.

I WILL REPEAT : NO DEFENCE COULD STOP THE FREE RIDE THAT COLLINGWOOD FORWARDS GOT FROM OUR TURNOVERS AT HALF FWD THROUGH POOR DISPOSAL. F i x that and we are right.

We cannot trade 8 players out and expect immediate results. Lever was a part of a losing defence on Sunday so he is not a saviour in his own right which we expect our young players to be.

With that wisdom out of the way, I am now into cricket season !!!

[TGR 1,367]

One of Roosy's 25 points is to not comment when you are hurt/burning.

 

The vitriol against the McDonalds....I can't fathom.  Tom has been the best swing man in the AFL; and Oscar is a baby in KPP terms.

 

Our glaring weakness has been there for some time, and would have been there if we snuck in to the 8.  Too many one-paced one-geared mids; without points-of-difference.

 

 

 

pTGR

[Big Demon 197]

18 minutes ago, dimmy said:

So far we have alluded that :

OMac:  is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had

TMac :is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had

Jack Watts: is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had. I thought he was our only Fwd in the first half

Angus B :is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had. The kid has come back from nearly having to leave the game altogether. He will be good

Dom Tyson : is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had because he cannot kick it straight

Clarrie :is to blame for Saturday and every .other loss we have had  because he does not handball it far enough

ANB : Because he is not fashionable . He is a developing player

Hibberd : His disposal on Saturday was not good.

Max Gawn : even though he won more hitouts than the Collingwood combined.

I WILL REPEAT : NO DEFENCE COULD STOP THE FREE RIDE THAT COLLINGWOOD FORWARDS GOT FROM OUR TURNOVERS AT HALF FWD THROUGH POOR DISPOSAL. F i x that and we are right.

We cannot trade 8 players out and expect immediate results. Lever was a part of a losing defence on Sunday so he is not a saviour in his own right which we expect our young players to be.

With that wisdom out of the way, I am now into cricket season !!!

Are you taking the [censored]? ANB is one of the most fashionable guys running round for MFC

[monoccular 17,578]

5 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Am I the only one who expected this list to go:

1. Oscar McDonald

2. Oscar McDonald

3. Oscar McDonald

 

One of few, I suspect. What your list is implying is that Oscar is the main cause of our inability to win games against bottom teams, games we are expected to win. 

Grossly unfair. 

4 hours ago, billyblanks29 said:

I agree that the supporters psyche is linked to the club. It's all subconsciously linked. We don't expect to win. Neither do they. We accept mediocrity in our own lives, I know I do. I'm sure you can all find examples. We have to change as supporters for the players to change as well.

Chicken or egg?

1954-64 players, coaches, supporters all expected, in fact knew, that we would win (most of the time)

Into 1965 supporters still expected, but through the middle of that winter (could be a modern Shakespearian 'winter of our discontent') the players and coaches (TGNS and his successor) started to know this wouldn't happen.

So, the team started being negative, became habitual losers, then the supporters realized against their greatest expectations that the team was becoming just that, habitual losers.

So it was not the supporters who changed their mindset - the club and the team changed their mindset. 

And it must be the club, and the team by  relentless unyielding efforts particularly on the field by predictably winning games in which we are favorites, and winning them well with no let up in final quarters or in final moments of quarters  (NM, CFC, CFC, LIONS, STK, GC$ Freo) but also off the field such as demanding better, more equitable promotional  opportunities like prime time games, equitable 6 day breaks, byes after Darwin (as long as that fixture must exist), that in turn will increase supporters' expectations and optimism.

Too many times have we supporters been promised so much, seen some openings developing, only to be cut down by repeated insipid 'performances' (using the word very loosely) to which expressions such as 'drinking their own bath water' or 'getting ahead of themselves' clearly applies.   The playing group lack leadership, leadership that demands ruthlessness.  They seem easily contented by narrowly beating the wooden spooner, when keeping their feet on the throats of the bears would almost certainly ensured us seeing finals action this year a but hey, contracts are not overly performance based, so a dollar for a win is the same as a dollar for a loss, so.....?????

The whole club psyche is shot, and every next time it happens, down it goes further into the abyss.

More than Kelly, or Lever, the club needs a full time sports psychologist to work with the coaches and the players, and the also work with the recruiters.  

The club cannot go on forever being happy with honorable losses against teams below us  

 

[titan_uranus 25,045]

I love that we celebrate every win. I never want to turn into Geelong for whom some wins bring no joy and they simply go through the motions. I want every season to be full of enjoyment, not just a waiting game in the hope we make finals. And the fans are the last group of people who deserve to be pilloried due to the actions of the club.

However, I think there is an argument that we over-celebrate, and that the culture of the club is to accept each win as being more than it actually is. When we fell over the line against Brisbane, we celebrated, when in reality our inability to hold the 32-point lead cost us finals. 

We still haven't shaken the losing culture we developed from 2008-2013. That's why we have posters who reflect on 2014-2017 and say "it's all good, just remember we only won 2 games in 2013!". That was relevant in 2014. It shouldn't be relevant now.

Right now, my hope is that this year and missing finals becomes the "turning point" we didn't necessarily realise we needed. Any other club would use the pain of missing this year as motivation to work harder, for longer, to make it next year. If we're serious, that's what will happen next year. We'll know that percentage may end up crucial so we won't go to sleep during games. We'll focus on beating the bad sides just as much as playing the best sides because we know that wins against the bad sides are the bedrock of making finals. 

I want to believe that will happen, but I can't believe it until it happens. It'll be a long 7 months.

[H_T 3,049]

11 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

1 - The soft-bellied Melbourne supporter. Demonland is rife with them, (without naming names) and it's an attitudinal problem steeped in accepting mediocrity. It's a condition that has developed over time and whilst I'm by no means as old as some of our loyal supporters, I know that mediocrity is applauded by so many and I vehemently believe that a supporter group's psyche is wholly married to the the club and players. From applauding 'effort' for a loss or congratulating Jack Watts in a game that would otherwise be considered a pass, to some of the posts I've read post-Saturday suggesting that "we're not ready" for finals and we would've been "knocked straight out" anyway. The way some of our supporters can so easily accept and applaud this is genuinely nauseating. The Melbourne supporter is a different type and @Colin B. Flaubert made a sublime contribution in the 'Post Mortem' thread outlining an 'arrogance' that is intrinsic to both club and supporter. As if for us it'll eventually just happen.

 

Bingo!

I don't know how you address this, because there is simply too many of them.

How does the ruthless, high expectations supporter psyche infiltrate the club/players?

[dee-tox 4,835]

FWIW I think the lack of wingman and in general good ball carriers is a point well made.

We overloaded in the inside mid/extractor stakes with Viney, Oliver, ANB, Petracca, Van Den Berg, Brayshaw etc. Only Stretch and maybe McKenna fit the ball carrier profile in the midfield and I am worried that Stretch has no real tricks. We need a re-balance and should go hard at the likes of Kelly, Whitfield, Isaac Smith, Liam Duggan, etc

Edited August 28, 2017 by dee-tox

[Wells 11 5,424]

I reckon we're the only club whose supporters regularily get potted by the press...and now by ourselves. Personally I dont know any " cheese platter" members. The ones I know deeply care.   imo we're a passionate, burned and hardened lot caused by the many on and off field heartbreaks. Of all the clubs once someone signs on we lose the least. Nothing cheese platter in that. we're a committed bunch...THE most committed in the league. 

So, Quit bagging supporter types or lecturing on how we need to be as a supporter. We need ALL our frikn supporters. EVERY KIND and type and charecter  is welcome in my book.  Collingwood has hard core members but also plenty of  softer corporate types but they all buy memberships and make the club strong.

We have to take care of each other here because the press shits on us as supporters at every opp. We're ALL hurting atm...lets try not to turn on each other. 

 

[Macca 17,041]

3 hours ago, H_T said:

 

I don't know how you address this, because there is simply too many of them.

How does the ruthless, high expectations supporter psyche infiltrate the club/players?

Couldn't agree more

All supporter groups supporting any team in any sport around the world are basically the same.  How does one spot the difference? (rhetorical)

Blaming the supporters is just utter nonsense - we effect nothing.  Never have, never will.   In fact, without our numbers, there wouldn't be a club. 

The only other concession that I would make is that we can sometimes effect home town umpiring/refereeing decisions.  Again, in any sport, anywhere in the world.

 

[Bay Riffin 1,481]

16 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

1 - The soft-bellied Melbourne supporter. Demonland is rife with them, (without naming names) and it's an attitudinal problem steeped in accepting mediocrity. It's a condition that has developed over time and whilst I'm by no means as old as some of our loyal supporters, I know that mediocrity is applauded by so many and I vehemently believe that a supporter group's psyche is wholly married to the the club and players. From applauding 'effort' for a loss or congratulating Jack Watts in a game that would otherwise be considered a pass, to some of the posts I've read post-Saturday suggesting that "we're not ready" for finals and we would've been "knocked straight out" anyway. The way some of our supporters can so easily accept and applaud this is genuinely nauseating. The Melbourne supporter is a different type and @Colin B. Flaubert made a sublime contribution in the 'Post Mortem' thread outlining an 'arrogance' that is intrinsic to both club and supporter. As if for us it'll eventually just happen.

 

2 - Vocation Vs lifestyle. How many players on our current list would you consider are living the life of an AFL footballer vs living the life of an AFL footballer. How many players both past and present could one sit next to Nathan Jones and say that they've devoted the same amount of energy into being an AFL footballer as he has? From Watts and Gawn to Frawley and Sylvia. The list of players who come through the doors of the MFC only to tap into half of their capacity as players and even humans is endless. It's no wonder we haven't unearthed a star for so long. Players need to adopt a philosophy on what it means to live in this world. What it means to have a vocation. What it means to have a purpose. Players need to be educated on what it means to be human. What their their very real capacity is and where it could take them. I look at Sydney and think about their players. Players like Parker. A pick 40 in the 2010 draft. But someone who has wholly given themselves to being an AFL footballer. Max Gawn has one AA year and look at his last month of football? The way he has been playing and the way he carries himself. He is caught up in the celebrity life that comes with being an AFL footballer. Watts is the same. Bugg is the same. Frawley and Sylvia were the same. Examples are everywhere. Who do we hold accountable for this? When does it change? 

 

3 - Genuine list imbalance. This is by far the easiest to fix.  This point could be broken down into sub-headings but I will try and keep it as one. I would go so far to disagree with the majority of the supporters on here who believe that the major reason we lost to Collingwood was because of a lack of care or war although there were absolutely some appalling efforts when it came to running defensively and defensive efforts in general from some players which is linked to the point above. 

I don't care for stats much as most know, but what my eyes tell me when I watch our team play is that we have a genuine lack of decision making and kicking/handballing execution skills across the entire list. It's an obvious weakness and is the sole reason we let so many teams either back into games or kick away with bags of consecutive goals. Other variables such as momentum, individual player confidence and performance levels and crowd also come into play but only after the fact.

We lost the game in the first quarter and it was undoubtedly because of skill errors and turnovers. You simply cannot tackle an opposition team when you turn the ball over on the fly. Both tackling numbers were down in the first quarter but ours were worse because we were worse by foot and they made us pay. In the last three rounds of football we had Dom Tyson (Inside mid) playing on a wing, ANB (Inside mid) playing on a flank and Brayshaw (Inside mid) playing on a back-flank. Three players that are playing positions they should not be playing in at AFL level. 

Wing - To see an improvement next year, we need an actual wingman. A player who has the capacity to run hard two-ways and uses the ball well. That player is not Dom Tyson. He almost single-handedly caused us the most damage in the first quarter on Saturday. His disposal quality, his opponent Phillips and his lack of two-way running and defensive pressure absolutely destroyed us. It would be the same as playing Matt Priddis on a wing. I don't understand it for the life of me.

Half-forward - ANB. Role player or not, Richmond have proven this year how important it is to have genuine small forwards in your side. They completely changed the profile of their list by playing all three of Rioli, Castagna and Butler in their forward-half. All players are fairly smart, two of them are good users, they threaten the scoreboard and they're all unbelievably quick and apply manic pressure at all times. ANB was drafted as an inside mid whose strength is his endurance and grunt. He is a player who is limited in his skills, decision making and goal kicking. He simply shouldn't be playing that position. It's like Rohan Bail all over again in that one decent year he had.

Half-back - Brayshaw. I understand that almost out of necessity he was re-introduced to the AFL lineup at half-back but I hope supporters now realise like they have with Tyson that he is not an elite user of the ball. He is effective. But he also butchers it. His one wood is as an inside mid and by god he better be back in that midfield mix next year permanently.

I'm not going to debate whether or not players like Tyson should be traded/delisted etc like many posters have in other threads. (I'll do that in the Tyson thread). But what I'm absolutely certain of is that these three positions must be filled with players who suit those positions and will therefore change the balance of our side for the better. It'd have an enormous positive influence if we identified the right players with the right attributes. 

There's plenty more I could go on about in regards to the state of our list but these three positions are a start and the three points in this thread are of great significance to me and are ones I care about deeply. 

If all three are addressed over the off-season in some capacity, we could see a big jump from the club. 

 

I think you have missed a huge gap. A decent key back who can dispose of the ball effectively. 

Its our biggest weakness. 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

2 minutes ago, Bay Riffin said:

I think you have missed a huge gap. A decent key back who can dispose of the ball effectively. 

Its our biggest weakness. 

Agree, I named three positions that need be filled by players that have attributes that we lack as a side.

And I also stated that there are plenty of other areas that need addressing. One is bringing in a quality key defender.

Part of the reason I didn't talk about it is because I have said my piece on the two McDonald boys and Frost. But it seems evidence is not enough for some to see that we have some glaringly obvious list problems, aside from our obvious talent and 'potential'.

[DSP 1,488]

Hunts biggest issue can be fixed. He gets a head full of steam and just goes like a bull in a china shop. He has the pace and a decent kick on him. Once he learns to lower his eyes/ look for a better option rather than just bombing it - he will be a MUCH better player.

Midfield is definately our issue. Inside grunt is taken care of, but we need someone with actual speed and skill in delivering the ball to the forward line. We dont have anyone like that at the moment. Tyson isnt the answer.

[MudDogs Gawn Win.. someday 499]

17 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

1 - The soft-bellied Melbourne supporter. Demonland is rife with them, (without naming names) and it's an attitudinal problem steeped in accepting mediocrity. It's a condition that has developed over time and whilst I'm by no means as old as some of our loyal supporters, I know that mediocrity is applauded by so many and I vehemently believe that a supporter group's psyche is wholly married to the the club and players. From applauding 'effort' for a loss or congratulating Jack Watts in a game that would otherwise be considered a pass, to some of the posts I've read post-Saturday suggesting that "we're not ready" for finals and we would've been "knocked straight out" anyway. The way some of our supporters can so easily accept and applaud this is genuinely nauseating. The Melbourne supporter is a different type and @Colin B. Flaubert made a sublime contribution in the 'Post Mortem' thread outlining an 'arrogance' that is intrinsic to both club and supporter. As if for us it'll eventually just happen.

 

I couldn't agree more.

Just spoke to my old man. He said he saw Melbourne "fans" in the MCC clapping the players off the ground.

As far as I'm concerned if anyone on here was in the MCC clapping that effort after the game. 

YOU CAN GO AND 

Get F U C K E D !!!!!!!!!!!

[In Harmes Way 7,823]

My three issues are:

1. First Quarter performance across the year. 

Q1 - W11, L11                75.7% (ranked 11)

Q2 - W12, L8, D2           116.8% (ranked 3)

Q3 W13, L9                    121.7% (ranked 4)

Q4 W13, L9                    110.1% (ranked 6)

When we win a first quarter, it's by average 11 pts. When we lose, it's by average 23 pts.

Pre-bye rounds: Our cumulative points differential from rounds 1-10 (points for - points against) was -96 for first quarters. Biggest positive qtr time margin pre-bye was 6 pts (out of 4 wins), biggest deficit 27pts (out of 6 losses).

Post-bye rounds: Our cumulative points differential post bye was -31 for first quarters. Biggest positive margin post bye was 32 pts (Saints), notable 25 pt margins v WB and Port. Nothing else to write home about. Biggest qtr time deficit was  36 pts (GWS), 35 pts (Adel), 32 pts (Coll). Better than pre-bye performance but wildly inconsistent.

Only against St Kilda (R1), GCS (R10) and Carlton (R16) did we turn a deficit at qtr time into a win. 

2. Our coaching staff, with all their access to stats, did nothing visible to improve first quarter performances across the year. Need to change something up fellas.

3. Suspensions. Bernie needs to take a good hard look at himself. Lewis same, you're both supposed to be leaders FFS. Bugg has a bit to answer for. Carlton medical staff can GAGF.

Edited August 29, 2017 by small but forward

[Akum 2,660]

Thread should be re-titled "The Scapegoat Thread". Grab a bat and have a swing.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

15 minutes ago, Akum said:

Thread should be re-titled "The Scapegoat Thread". Grab a bat and have a swing.

I think you may have missed the invite but there's still a place for you.

@Nasher's end of season BBQ bash - talking things only good and positive re: MFC.

In attendance so far, we have @Vogon Poetry,@Wiseblood, @Satyriconhome, @Rhino Richards (who funnily enough seems to only 'like' posts made by these guys lately) and a few others.

Should be a seriously insightful time. A blast. You'll fit right in. 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stevethemanjordan

[Nasher 33,617]

I understand you're just taking the piss Steve, but the fact that you think I only talk things good and positive shows that you see things in black and white; a concern I've held about you for quite some time.

[Sir Why You Little 37,163]

54 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I think you may have missed the invite but there's still a place for you.

@Nasher's end of season BBQ bash - talking things only good and positive re: MFC.

In attendance so far, we have @Vogon Poetry,@Wiseblood, @Satyriconhome, @Rhino Richards (who funnily enough seems to only 'like' posts made by these guys lately) and a few others.

Should be a seriously insightful time. A blast. You'll fit right in. 

Live Facebook for this would be superb!!!

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

28 minutes ago, Nasher said:

I understand you're just taking the [censored] Steve, but the fact that you think I only talk things good and positive shows that you see things in black and white; a concern I've held about you for quite some time.

I'm simply returning serve in a similar fashion.

Whether it be this thread or others, you similarly see me as a negative nelly. Which would suggest you also believe I see things in black and white. 

A concern that doesn't worry me in the slightest

; )

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by stevethemanjordan

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I don't where to post this, but is anyone else current going through a wave of emotions still?

I felt like I had moved on but then suddenly I get this knot in my stomach and dread comes over me again.

[Bay Riffin 1,481]

5 hours ago, DSP said:

Hunts biggest issue can be fixed. He gets a head full of steam and just goes like a bull in a china shop. He has the pace and a decent kick on him. Once he learns to lower his eyes/ look for a better option rather than just bombing it - he will be a MUCH better player.

Midfield is definately our issue. Inside grunt is taken care of, but we need someone with actual speed and skill in delivering the ball to the forward line. We dont have anyone like that at the moment. Tyson isnt the answer.

he has actually lowered his eyes more since about 6 weeks ago. his problem has been touch and he was fumbly as a virgin on prom night on Saturday.

[Guest]

Add also injury and the loss of momentum. 

And a promising but still developing coach. 

Along with many other reasonable points in the thread.

Still ducking hurting 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

I think you may have missed the invite but there's still a place for you.

@Nasher's end of season BBQ bash - talking things only good and positive re: MFC.

In attendance so far, we have @Vogon Poetry,@Wiseblood, @Satyriconhome, @Rhino Richards (who funnily enough seems to only 'like' posts made by these guys lately) and a few others.

Should be a seriously insightful time. A blast. You'll fit right in. 

Just like WYL and jrnmac run after you like little puppies, liking your posts as well?

And I'll reiterate what Nasher added - just because I see things in a slightly more positive way does not mean I don't see the need for improvement as well, something I've added many times over the last few days