Post Match Discussion, Pontification and Prayer

[Cards13 9,117]

a priority pick so we can get ourselves another Toumpas?

Then everythying will be fine. God I am sick of this club

Unfortunately he has progressed as would liked but he is one of many.

We need some free agents of note and none will come to us.

[CityDee 738]

Can the club please put us out of our misery and end the Spencer project? How many years has this bloke clogged the list for now? How many delisted ruckmen like Ceglar have we overlooked to develop Spencer? He's just laughable. Can't even read the ball in flight. We've conceded several goals on the goal line in the last 2 weeks where Jake wasn't coordinated enough to just punch it through for a point.

When we have the ball we are just always under pressure because we are so painfully slow all over the ground. Lumumba and Garlett are the only blokes with pace capable of putting a yard quickly between them and their opponent.

GWS knew which of their highly touted mids to let go. Tyson couldn't run out of sight on a dark night and is so one-sided. I hope his terrible form is due to his knee and not opposition clubs figuring him out.

Dawes is currently the most overpaid player in the Afl. Fancy Dawes, on $500k a year, being paid more than 90% of the Hawks players that lined up yesterday. I hope his salary is halved in his next contract. Can't work out why the club would roll Dawes out for a presser when he is so out of form anyway? Concentrate on getting a kick and not baiting the Hawks with embarrassing comments.

Finally, bloody disappointing to see Tyson and Michie out at a bar last night. Not going hard, not out late, but you have to wonder how much it really hurts some of these players.

I'd have the whole list together coaches included for a big p:iss up . Edited May 18, 2015 by CityDee

[DemonOX 8,791]

When we lose like we did on Saturday, I often seek solace in my music - along with a few beers - to soothe my jaded nerves. On Saturday night I went through my extensive collection of old vinyl LP's. The first one to jump out at me was 'Days of Future Past" by the Moody Blues. It was almost as if that album sensed my despair - short lived I might add.

Despite our constant debates on here in the past, regarding previous coaches, what has become clear to me is that our 're-build' still remains very much a work in progress. Of greater concern to me is that we appear to still carry the scars of the previous 'regime'. No matter how bad losses have been in the past, I have tried to stay until the final siren. On Saturday, I just couldn't bear it and walked out of the 'G with my head down and shoulders hunched over, at about the 5 minute mark of the last quarter. I am embarrassed to admit that. I very much want to believe in a positive future, but am finding it increasingly difficult to do so. To me, it is almost like the players thought these past 3 weeks were always going to be a write off, but after that, we would be OK.

I am not sure of that at all and just wonder if the damage done over the past 3 weeks, is a replica of what occurred in dark days under Neeld.

Since listening to the Album again, the lyrics of "The Afternoon: Forever Afternoon/Time to Get Away" keeps going through my head. I don't want to sound defeatist, but I haven't felt so low, as I did at 5:00 pm on Saturday, in a long time. Yes, I know, we played a very professional and talented football side, but any loss of that magnitude still bothers me.

Bullies at the 'G on Sunday? All I ask is for a performance befitting any AFL footy team.

Don't think you r alone in your thoughts there Iva.

I too am becoming increasingly detached from our club which is something I never thought would happen.

All my kids say to me is "here we go again dad another flogging. Is it every going to change". I use to say yes it will turn and we will be winning once again but I'm affraid that' doesn't seem to be happening.

It really is a sad state we find ourselves in.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

That was definitely a rumour about Cook, not Toumpas.

I think Toumpas cried on the ground after a really poor performance two years ago, and he was given the red vest. At least it showed he cared about the way he'd been playing.

Yeah i got the memo mate.

But no one here will ever take you serious on your judgement based an incident that never happened.

So you made up and posted a load of BS about Toumpas to denigrate and belittle him. What credibility and morals can you possibly have?

Django seems to offer sum cred to Sir's allegation guys. If he sooked he sooked. Doesn't matter when. And im not saying he did but u might wanna check your sources. Good luck to Toump but IF he did then it needs to be looked at. Not sure there's room for any nancy boys at this level

*edit for spell

Edited May 18, 2015 by Rusty Nails

[hardtack 10,537]

Seems ironic that Jones goes in hard every single week and rarely if ever gets injured, yet it's gardening that takes him down.

I can be fraught with danger, growing things under your house... particularly if you stand up too quickly.

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

The night started slowly but with a room full of supporters determined for the club to do well you cant help feel more optimistic.

I spoke to a senior person in the Football department who said it was good for the players to be there seeing that they have supporters behind them rather than being home on the couch stewing over the loss and reading social media. He said that players get no chance these days to be out of the spotlight unlike when he played and they read the social media about their performances (like this forum) which is a major player management issue. He was glad they were away from that for an evening in a friendly and positive enviroment. I think you will find the real deal with Watts is they want to give him a chance to play a bit of footy out of the spotlight.

I didn't go near Roos who in his unguarded moments looked filthy. Nathan Jones was clearly very upset by the loss (he is carrying a small niggle from gardening earlier in the year which flares up from time to time). Every player I spoke to was hoping Roos meant it when he said there would be no review, they all knew the performance stank and was unacceptable.

Nev is unlikely to play next week but will be back the week after.

A good report, Thanks.

Any idea why Roos said Watts asked to be dropped...the media spin on it was awful, only adding to the idea that is shows more weakness on Watts' part. Couldn't Roos just say what you said: they want to give him a chance to play a bit of footy out of the spotlight. Everyone would have accepted that more easily. Leigh Matthews was particularly critical.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Lucifer's Hero

[Adam The God 30,259]

A sad statement of our ruck stocks 'Adam'. At least the big pencil has a go...

Agreed. I'm certainly not saying Spencer is brilliant. I'm just saying he's an upgrade on Jamar and gets involved more than Gawn too.

Of course

We still have by far the worst midfield in the league

But two days ago we were one off season from having good depth. I'm not sure how you can then turn around and say the next day that our midfield is the worst in the league. And for the record, I agree with you. Carlton's would be the only other competitor. Richmond's isn't that crash hot either. Incredibly overrated.

Better?

There's still some embarrassing stuff on here. But that's not for you to deal with, Nash. There have been some downright ridiculous comments in this thread, but hey, that's the internet.

Edited May 18, 2015 by AdamFarr

[P-man 13,366]

Watching 360 and after being humiliated to the tune of 105 points, their two biggest losers of the weekend were Port and Carlton.

You have to wonder when this club will gain relevance.

[P-man 13,366]

Roos on 360 gave an air of someone who is searching for answers like everyone else. In summary:

- the most disappointing thing was the lack of effort which had been there in previous weeks

- confirmed they didn't do a formal review of the match because there was nothing to be gained from it and there were enough learnings from the Swans and Freo game

- looking for "solutions" as to why it happened, with numerous factors beIng at play. Focused on the younger players tiring being one factor, in particular the decision to play Brayshaw when he was crook the week before and that being a mistake (might see Brayshaw as an out this week)

- took the entire group out to lunch today to get them refreshed for training on Wed

Was hoping for some more pressing questions on gamestyle and in particular the drop in form of numerous senior players, but not to be.

Edited May 18, 2015 by P-man

[dazzledavey36 54,944]

Id bring Riley in for Brayshaw if thats the case.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Roos on 360 gave an air of someone who is searching for answers like everyone else. In summary:

- the most disappointing thing was the lack of effort which had been there in previous weeks

- confirmed they didn't do a formal review of the match because there was nothing to be gained from it and there were enough learnings from the Swans and Freo game

- looking for "solutions" as to why it happened, with numerous factors beIng at play. Focused on the younger players tiring being one factor, in particular the decision to play Brayshaw when he was crook the week before and that being a mistake (might see Brayshaw as an out this week)

- took the entire group out to lunch today to get them refreshed for training on Wed

Was hoping for some more pressing questions on gamestyle and in particular the drop in form of numerous senior players, but not to be.

He doesn't seem to get the really hard questions, and when he does, he's an expert at evading them

[Frosty Demon 153]

Roos on 360 gave an air of someone who is searching for answers like everyone else. In summary:

- the most disappointing thing was the lack of effort which had been there in previous weeks

- confirmed they didn't do a formal review of the match because there was nothing to be gained from it and there were enough learnings from the Swans and Freo game

- looking for "solutions" as to why it happened, with numerous factors beIng at play. Focused on the younger players tiring being one factor, in particular the decision to play Brayshaw when he was crook the week before and that being a mistake (might see Brayshaw as an out this week)

- took the entire group out to lunch today to get them refreshed for training on Wed

Was hoping for some more pressing questions on gamestyle and in particular the drop in form of numerous senior players, but not to be.

Its called fluf

Edited May 18, 2015 by Frosty Demon

[Undeeterred 3,124]

If someone wishes to call me a fcukbag i don't really feel like caring what they think.

I daresay you would feel the same way if the same was said to you.

Well, that's not what I called you, but at least that response actually responded to the previous post!

[beelzebub 23,376]

He doesn't seem to get the really hard questions, and when he does, he's an expert at evading them

its the art of Roos-speak. A career in politics awaits should he not retire to Hawaii

[Soidee 1,496]

The MFC has assembled a coaching and development group as good as any going around in the AFL. The problem continues to be obvious....inferior players on the list who get games because our list has no depth and is basically loaded up with B grade AFL players. I challenge any coach in the AFL to do better with this inferior list.

I think our latest recruiting has been good with the new guys, but we still have about 10 players who are being gifted AFL money and games.

[SaberFang 7,151]

We're still two off seasons away from having a semblance of an AFL list to rival where the Bulldogs are at now.

Sadly I think almost everyone from pre-Roos will need to be turned over, delisted or retired before his tenure ends.

[daisycutter 29,616]

We're still two off seasons away from having a semblance of an AFL list to rival where the Bulldogs are at now.

Sadly I think almost everyone from pre-Roos will need to be turned over, delisted or retired before his tenure ends.4-6

4-6 actually

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

I was not happy how Roos portrayed Jack 'dropping himself' as it just turned up the heat especially from past coaches.

Unheard of, they cried!! More negative Jack headlines resulted.

Last night on footy shows it was really good to hear Wayne Carey, Luke Darcy and Garry Lyon speak in strong support of Jack 'dropping' himself.

They said players are human, they should be cut some slack or untold psychological damage could occur. Furthermore they said:

- If physically injured players are given time to recover with understanding and without fan-fare.

- If emotionally challenged they should also be given time to recover with understanding and without fan-fare.

In any other environment the frenzied media 'headline' grabbing criticism and berating would be considered abuse.

I hope the Carey and Lyon comments are followed by the media to be more considered in their comments on players, not just Jack.

Not suggesting a 'kid-glove' treatment - just everyday respect being shown when criticising.

If the mainstream media changes its approach to Jack, hopefully it will rub off on the rest of the football public at games, on social media etc. Then we might get to see the real Jack!

Edited May 18, 2015 by Lucifer's Hero

[Samael 560]

It's because they don't care. They don't really need to care anyway because they will continually be excused by supporters like dazzledavey who seem to be so used to getting flogged they have actually become fond of it, and are soft as tissue paper. As I said yesterday, if the scoreline was the other way around, Hawthorn supporters and players simply would not stand for it. They would not be out on the turps that night and the next week they would stand up and come out with a message. What do you think our message will be next week. something soft penned by dazzle I'm guessing, and another belting. I for one would like the 22 players on the ground to demonstrate they care even 10% as much as your average demonlander does about the jumper.

Absolute drivel. No one would put up with the life of an AFL player, the scrutiny, the daily evaluation, the armchair experts constant carping and the emotional highs and lows together with the restrictions on any sort of normal life and not care. Imagine if your job put you in the limelight and had all sorts of wannabes (fans) looking at every little microscopic detail of your life and work performance. These guys care about their performance, they just are not there yet. This site gets toxic after every loss as if a basket case is going to become league leaders in 29 games. Our expectations on players is irrational. Its absolutely stupid to expect players with less than 20 games to be able to match players with 100 plus games. We focus on a player that does one positive thing make them an instant star and expect them to replicate this time after time. We put expectations on players from day 1. Just look at the way Petracca is being set up. Reminds me off Watts when he was selected. Petracca has not played at Casey level yet some on here would have him as the great white hope because he was a good junior. Watts was a fantastic junior as well but the weight of fandom (and the club) expectation have virtually destroyed the poor bugger. I have concerns for Stretch because we have talented young player in him but have chucked him in at the deep end and his performances show he is not yet ready.

Roos was given 3 years and we are not even half way into that tenure yet some want him gone because he has not done much. I am not his biggest fan but he took on a shite team with no confidence, no culture and has worked some improvement. The old saying in regard to how do you eat and elephant? With small bites! is appropriate. We will have some reversals but the win over Richmond, the valiant efforts before these last 3 games have convinced me that it is way to early in Roos tenure to start calling for his head or the heads of those he has influenced. I for one thought our effort against Freo was reasonable given where we have come from.

It is true that we, the fans, have had to endure years of crap performances and asking us to wait on even more development is testing, but that is a fact of life. The problem is that we see a little bit of improvement and we turn it into the second coming only to be let down when our expectations are dashed. The Club/Roos have given us no milestones on the expected progression, stakes in the ground that we as fans can measure actual performance against so we set up our own (eg 8-10 games won for the year coming of 4 last year). I measure our performance week by week against our performance against our recent performances against this weeks opponents.. We were just shaded by the Dogs last year. They have had significant changes in the intervening period, have definitely changed their playbook and most importantly clearly have a belief in themselves and their abilities. Its this belief that is absent at the Dees. I think its only going to get worse if we fall back into the massive changes (more than 2) in the team. When the Dogs got smashed by the Hawks they made 2 changes (plus 2 for injuries). Roos an co, if they believe in their game plan should look to do the same, engender some belief in the players instead of changing the team week in week out. Watts should not be brought back in after 1 week, even if he did ask to be dropped. If they believed that last weeks team was the team to beat the Hawks then surely they are the team to beat the lesser lights at the bulldogs. Maybe give Stretch a rest and Brayshaw if he is not 100%. The team last week matches up pretty well on the Bulldogs team so let them have at it.

Rant over, sorry if its a bit preachy. I am a big believer in the impact of the head is as much an influence as skills philosophy. Training can sort out the skills part and consistency at the selection table can do wonders for confidence. Take the risk that the team from last week, as a unit, can get the job done this week.

[jackaub 1,402]

Nice piece Samael and I agree with most of it.

Except you don't even start to address the obvious lack of effort and team work amongst the playing group

Whether they are trying hard and failing or not trying hard enough is a valid question on here and I would like to think that they are trying but are held back by some mental/emotional issues

That surely comes within Roos sphere of influence and is in dire need of being addressed

It hasn' been so far and appears to be getting worse by the week

But please don't berate demonland posters for asking the valid questions about all the performances including the coach

[Samael 560]

Nice piece Samael and I agree with most of it.

Except you don't even start to address the obvious lack of effort and team work amongst the playing group

Whether they are trying hard and failing or not trying hard enough is a valid question on here and I would like to think that they are trying but are held back by some mental/emotional issues

That surely comes within Roos sphere of influence and is in dire need of being addressed

It hasn' been so far and appears to be getting worse by the week

But please don't berate demonland posters for asking the valid questions about all the performances including the coach

I guess in my inept attempt to say what I am thinking I did not get out that I don't think they play as a team. They play as individuals and seem to be concerned for their own survival, possessions, goals etc. matter, whereas 1%, sacrifice roles etc are not valued as much and so rarely occur. Lamumba/Garland interaction seems to be an attempt if HL was being supportive. Every week you see a lot of times when players burn others in good position, in my opinion because there isn't a lot of confidence in each other. I reckon the club could do worse than as has already been suggested on here and get the boys out on a team bonding session (Xmas in July always worked for me say the bye week). Have a few bevys, forcibly break up cliques. Their time up north in the preseason seemed to be a good bonding session and maybe its needed again. We are looking from the outside and don't know what is going on so make assumptions (like I am doing now). I do know that when I was working, regular team sessions(over 50 in the team) with nothing to do with actual work involved, were excellent in getting them all engaged. Sure it wasn't a footy team but it was a team and they were dependent on each other.

Apologies to C&B (or any others) if I have berated them. I just can't stand to hear terms like they don't care, or they did not try or the worst "did not come to play". Its just BS and worse when coaches say it cause its up to them to get them up.

Really want to see a change in the mental side of the TEAM as I see it as the foundation of any successful group no matter what they do. Just glad there were no blogs on the roles I was involved in.

[drdrake 3,163]

We're still two off seasons away from having a semblance of an AFL list to rival where the Bulldogs are at now.

Sadly I think almost everyone from pre-Roos will need to be turned over, delisted or retired before his tenure ends.

Yep, I look at Casey on the weekend, there was one kid ANB that really may be a half decent AFL player in the future, the rest same same no one to get excited about. We are 2-3 years behind the dogs and Saints and maybe a little ahead of Carlton.

[jackaub 1,402]

I guess in my inept attempt to say what I am thinking I did not get out that I don't think they play as a team. They play as individuals and seem to be concerned for their own survival, possessions, goals etc. matter, whereas 1%, sacrifice roles etc are not valued as much and so rarely occur. Lamumba/Garland interaction seems to be an attempt if HL was being supportive. Every week you see a lot of times when players burn others in good position, in my opinion because there isn't a lot of confidence in each other. I reckon the club could do worse than as has already been suggested on here and get the boys out on a team bonding session (Xmas in July always worked for me say the bye week). Have a few bevys, forcibly break up cliques. Their time up north in the preseason seemed to be a good bonding session and maybe its needed again. We are looking from the outside and don't know what is going on so make assumptions (like I am doing now). I do know that when I was working, regular team sessions(over 50 in the team) with nothing to do with actual work involved, were excellent in getting them all engaged. Sure it wasn't a footy team but it was a team and they were dependent on each other.

Apologies to C&B (or any others) if I have berated them. I just can't stand to hear terms like they don't care, or they did not try or the worst "did not come to play". Its just BS and worse when coaches say it cause its up to them to get them up.

Really want to see a change in the mental side of the TEAM as I see it as the foundation of any successful group no matter what they do. Just glad there were no blogs on the roles I was involved in.

I also saw Dunn and Lumumba clearly showing frustration at the type of play being delivered by some. It must be very frustrating for some in the Team to witness the weekly unravelling

[Demonsone 2,037]

Bottom line people we just don't have the cattle yet..... We have a mix of experienced top up players who are @ best b+ players with young talent who are just not ready yet yo match it.....

When you look @ teams like Haw, swans , freo & cats... All their coaches went thru a phase of turning over & strengthening lists & building the right culture & developing players for success .. This took more than 2 seasons & we're not coming back from an absolute basket case!

As frustrated we all are we cant expect Roos & co to fix immediately.. This list will change again in 2016 & I dare say Roos mat not be our next Finals coach rather a foundation builder!

I hear people say Roos hearts not in ...FFS why would he stake his reputation??? I'm sure he could've earned a good coin in the media & other football areas...

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Bottom line people we just don't have the cattle yet..... We have a mix of experienced top up players who are @ best b+ players with young talent who are just not ready yet yo match it.....

When you look @ teams like Haw, swans , freo & cats... All their coaches went thru a phase of turning over & strengthening lists & building the right culture & developing players for success .. This took more than 2 seasons & we're not coming back from an absolute basket case!

As frustrated we all are we cant expect Roos & co to fix immediately.. This list will change again in 2016 & I dare say Roos mat not be our next Finals coach rather a foundation builder!

I hear people say Roos hearts not in ...FFS why would he stake his reputation??? I'm sure he could've earned a good coin in the media & other football areas...

Some realism and perspective in the cold light of day. Well said Hoges. Let's move on.