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PODCAST: SF vs Carlton


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1 minute ago, Webber said:

Never, because they’re not an excuse, they’re a reason. The ENTIRE history of footy determines it so. You can blame poor management and systems for those injuries when appropriate (not for us this year), and you can be frustrated with HOW we play, inconsistency and the average ups and downs of a season, as we all are, and none of us are immune to it, but NOTHING, and that means NOTHING determines success, W/L percentages and ladder position more than ‘games unavailable through injury’. Clubs do their absolute best to work around them - depth, ‘mirror’ players in the VFL - but it’s still the truth. It’s the most reliable indicator of relative success, bar none. 

Well said. 

Yes it's a reason and truth but it's a truth that every club deals with. We aren't one out on this. 

Focus on what we can control and the personel available. I can't sit here and say confidently that we did that in this finals series.

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Just now, layzie said:

Yes it's a reason and truth but it's a truth that every club deals with. We aren't one out on this. 

Focus on what we can control and the personel available. I can't sit here and say confidently that we did that in this finals series.

But it’s a relative spectrum across the clubs, layzie. Every club has greater or lesser problems with injuries across the season. Some have a dream run (which are rare), others a horror, and everything in between. I suspect we were probably mid-table for ‘games unavailable’. If we had a full fit list, we would have done better, which obviously means finishing second, or first, and gone straight to a preliminary final, and been odds on for the flag. Then the whole argument of big changes goes away. In truth, we actually did well for our injury stats. Which suggests that big change is NOT needed, and we did well at managing what could be controlled. But, of course, every club seeks to change for the better after every season, and we will. The current MFC is a very high performing club, that I think should be praised for how it managed the season, despite that we all wish it had ended better. 

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2 minutes ago, Webber said:

But it’s a relative spectrum across the clubs, layzie. Every club has greater or lesser problems with injuries across the season. Some have a dream run (which are rare), others a horror, and everything in between. I suspect we were probably mid-table for ‘games unavailable’. If we had a full fit list, we would have done better, which obviously means finishing second, or first, and gone straight to a preliminary final, and been odds on for the flag. Then the whole argument of big changes goes away. In truth, we actually did well for our injury stats. Which suggests that big change is NOT needed, and we did well at managing what could be controlled. But, of course, every club seeks to change for the better after every season, and we will. The current MFC is a very high performing club, that I think should be praised for how it managed the season, despite that we all wish it had ended better. 

I do see what you're saying Webber. There's no doubt we would have done better but I still think what we had was capable of winning at least a final. 

We managed our injuries quite well and it was a shame that the injuries we did have were key structural ones spread across the season. Then when you see clubs like Collingwood and the Dogs the year they won it? Well, I know these are outliers but it's still frustrating.

I also don't believe we need wholesale changes but tweaks definitely need to be made.

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1 minute ago, layzie said:

Dogs the year they won it?

Murphy aside, they had a very healthy list by finals. Are you talking Collingwood this year? Aside from Daicos, and possibly Adams now, they’ve come into finals also with a very healthy list. Still don’t think they’ll win it though. 
 

We absolutely could have won a final with what we had, which is remarkable, in fact should have, if only we’d kicked straight. It’s the sole game-day stat of significance. Turn 3 of our ‘posters’ into goals, and voila. 
 

Tweaks will happen, as they should, but there’s just no reason to go fishing for answers to questions that don’t match the plain facts. We had injuries impose on our season, and we didn’t kick straight enough for goal. 1 and 2 on the reasons list, with everything else way further down. 

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Just now, Webber said:

Murphy aside, they had a very healthy list by finals. Are you talking Collingwood this year? Aside from Daicos, and possibly Adams now, they’ve come into finals also with a very healthy list. Still don’t think they’ll win it though. 
 

We absolutely could have won a final with what we had, which is remarkable, in fact should have, if only we’d kicked straight. It’s the sole game-day stat of significance. Turn 3 of our ‘posters’ into goals, and voila. 
 

Tweaks will happen, as they should, but there’s just no reason to go fishing for answers to questions that don’t match the plain facts. We had injuries impose on our season, and we didn’t kick straight enough for goal. 1 and 2 on the reasons list, with everything else way further down. 

Just generally over the last 12 months. Their ruck issue could have cripped them but they got through it all. 

In relation to fishing for answers though I believe it's still a pertinent question for the guys as I don't believe the game style we played last week and this week made the most of what we had out there. Long balls into a forward line with little to no chance of bringing the ball to ground regularly and slow movement didn't help. I think looking at chances missed and using the "if we kicked those we would have won" argument is simplistic and a bit of a crutch. We need to be looking at the types of entries and generating the best looks at goal because it's clearly not working in big moments.

Now that I think of it, maybe the question should be "At what point do we stop using inaccuracy as an excuse" either/or will do.

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5 minutes ago, layzie said:

"if we kicked those we would have won" argument is simplistic and a bit of a crutch

Surely you realise the forward line personnel merry-go-round and accuracy are connected. You might label it a crutch, but that doesn’t make it less than absolutely true. It’s the ‘crutch of truth’ maybe (ooh, I like that). 
 

Collingwood haven’t really had ruck issues. They’ve had at least 2 of Cameron, Cox and Frampton available all season. 

Edited by Webber
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2 hours ago, Webber said:

There will always be changes of course, that’s the nature of footy. But we were/are obviously so close it’s crazy. Kick straighter, we win, it’s that simple and that close. I don’t understand how people can’t see this. That’s what makes it so frustrating. And yes, @rpfc, our back half turnover and transition to score has been elite all season. Statistically. It’s not really an opinion. 

I think there’s a bit of noise in that elite transition. Long bombs to shallow entries is a successful transition to an Inside 50 and the bloke at Chanpion Data puts down his binary answer. But whatever, I think I am going get what I want;

New Forwards coach, possibly new coach to replace Yze with ball movement mandate, Chaplin diminished or gone.

New counterattack-focussed defence

Recruit a tall forward, a medium forward, and a small forward who are actual forwards.

Bring in wing competition with elite kicking skills

Bring in HBF in mould of McVee and Rivers To allow Rivers more into midfield 

Bring in at least one elite kid into squad of 26, and allow more opportunities for Howes, Laurie, Turner, Adams, and Woewodin.


Look to Trade/Delist/allow to leave: Grundy, Harmes, Spargo, Hibberd, Melksham, Jordan, Brown, Dunstan, Tomlinson and TMac.

I don’t think the above is too radical for the failure of the last two years.

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57 minutes ago, Webber said:

Surely you realise the forward line personnel merry-go-round and accuracy are connected. You might label it a crutch, but that doesn’t make it less than absolutely true. It’s the ‘crutch of truth’ maybe (ooh, I like that). 
 

Collingwood haven’t really had ruck issues. They’ve had at least 2 of Cameron, Cox and Frampton available all season. 

Yeah that definitely sounds like a crutch, a kick for goal is a kick for goal at the end of the day and as you pointed out we had plenty of those that we didn't kick. If there aren't enough good kicks for goal in the merry-go-round then that's an 'us' problem. 

Aside from a rough for a month in the middle of the year and these last two games our accuracy was quite good with alternative forward lines so I'm not really buying it.

Respect your views Webber but this is the podcast thread for questions we want asked on the show, will let Andy decide if my questions are stupid or not.

Edited by layzie
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May be too early to discuss our trade options but would our forward woes be supported by trading for a key forward like Ben King?

We’re still firmly in the premiership window and if we nail one of our ‘learnings’ for next year (converting shots on goal) then another top four finish will result in a home Preliminary Final and not a humiliating third consecutive straight sets exit….

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I know Binman will bang on about how accuracy cost us, and it’s true, but do you think the FD needs to rebalance our contest/defence mantra? We averaged something like 65pts the last 5 weeks. Surely 2024 has to be a focus on scoring.

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Here are my 5 questions for the @Demonland podcast.

 

1) Firstly, what a horrible past few days for the Melbourne Football Club. Losing to Carlton by 2 points in a semi final and then the great Ronald Dale Barassi passing away. I would like to hear a tribute to Ronald Dale Barassi and perhaps some fond memories of him?

 

2) Are we now going to be known as "chokers" in finals? Why can't we win these vital finals games in front of huge crowds at the MCG? Do we get stage fright?

 

3) Was Simon Goodwin out coached by Michael Voss in the semi final? Why the unused "super sub" of Josh Schache? It was a waste! Why not Brodie Grundy? I thought tactically we were outmanoeuvred by Carlton. Would a running player like Taj Woewodin or even Michael Hibberd had been a better option?

 

4) What cost us the game against Carlton? The missing shots on goal? The crucial chances to win key contests? Lack of a fully functioning forwardline? The fact that we crumbled under pressure with less than two minutes to go? What went wrong?

 

5) What do we need to do to recuperate from a humiliating two straight sets losses in finals series? How does the Melbourne Football Club get better? It needs to be "Premiership or bust" in 2024. Who should we look to recruit? Better decision makers and elite kicks into our forwardline? Better kicks at goal? Does the Demons coaching team also need an overhaul?

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When you see two of the sides in the bottom half of the eight make it through to the prelim finals it shows just how even the competition really is. Wasn’t much between all the sides in the eight (perhaps the Saints excepted).  We lost both our finals due to poor kicking, rather than we were beaten. 
Had we beaten the Pies we would have been serious contenders. We lost. Had we then beaten Carlton it was still going to be a tough ask to go all the way. That is how close the competition is.

My question is this. Taking into account that the list will be reviewed and refined as well as tweaks made to our game plan, unforeseen injuries aside, tell me why I shouldn’t consider us being not just a contender but a serious contender next year.  I reckon we will be.  I think people sometimes forget, premierships are extremely hard to come by. 

Edited by Wodjathefirst
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Obviously not result we wanted, gutted to say the least, the continued ability to dominate all key stats and just keep the door open for the opponent has to be the main focus this summer. Regardless of how hollow I feel with the season being over and the RDB news I can't help but still be proud.

This club was an embarrassment for so long and just watching us win games and consistently knowing we will compete has been an honour. 

From the game:

How good was May, Curnow was nullified, take a bow sir. 

I felt like Spargo was much better than I expected.

Where did Judd McVee come from, kid is a top 10 player in my eyes, the class, skill and nerve of him is unreal.

We lost the game in the 1 area we have all been scared of for the past 2-3 years, we just lack the ability to score, we work to hard to score a scrappy goal and then in the past two weeks we respond by letting the Pies and Blues waltz out of the centre bounce and erase our work. In the magical year that was 21 we were that team, cruising out the front of stoppage but this year it seemed to be absent.

 

Still bullish on next year but feel like if it doesn't happen next year it makes sense to hit a mini rebuild to ensure a Geelong level of success for the next decade. 

I expect that we see Gus hang them up and that will be a massive loss for us not only for his playing ability but his leadership and apparent relationships with all the boys.

 

 

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23 hours ago, Clintosaurus said:

Just talk about the umps for an hour. That will do.


Well done on the pod this year lads. 

The club needs to ask for an official PLEASE EXPLAIN in regards to ANB’s goal being called touched. That was an absolute F%#KING DISGRACE!
 

I want @binman off the long run for 5 mins of umpire bashing, in fact just make the entire pod an umpire bashing Binman Megamix, I need it after having to sit through that garbage. We could have 46 umpires and it would change the fact they’re F’ing useless!!

I will never watch the replay of Friday’s [censored] show again. I can’t do it.

My mail is that Grundy has been sooking it up at the club and that’s why we refuse to pick, internally the club would be furious he is looking for a trade mid finals and our last big F’you to him was having no one go up in the ruck at times.

If this woke ignorant cry baby wants to go Sydney I would be sending him there with an early 2nd maybe a late 1st and demanding one of their Key Fwds, Logan, Amarti or McLean (who I think would suit us perfectly). 

 

Edited by Doug Reemer
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So many questions. So many.

The losses still hurt.

We are angry.  Frustrated. Gutted.  Disappointed.

Some positives in the year but ultimately we had a huge premiership chance … blown away too quickly.  

It’s been a terrible finals campaign.  A horrible September. 

-Gus knocked out by thug Maynard.  
-Lost to Pies. 

-Tribunal misdirect and misrepresentations lead to Maynard being excused 

-Lost to Blues. 

-RIP Ronald Dale Barassi (an MFC legend) 

-Umpires !!! Don’t even mention them. Is Scum being too nice a description. Some horrible horrible decisions.  Kozzys reversal just one of many shocking errors.  
 

Premierships are hard to win.  We found out that if you are having a dysfunctional forward entries and dysfunctional forwards, the lack of scoring will cost you big times. Learnings. Connection forward of Centre. Goodys rhetoric is wearing thin.  

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For having the ‘best’ midfield in the comp, I thought we were terrible in the middle. CB setups were entirely defensive almost the whole night and our ability to win the contest there and move forward was terrible.  With the players available there, why do you all think we take such an approach?  Is this a coaching issue, a skill issue or something else??

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On 9/16/2023 at 8:41 AM, layzie said:

When do we stop using injuries as an excuse? We did really well with the cards we were dealt this year but just like the inaccuracy there is little control over it and I feel like people are just hoping that will somehow be perfect next year. We need to control the controlables, gameplan, personel and coaching staff need to be looked at.

 

On 9/16/2023 at 9:30 AM, layzie said:

Well said. 

Yes it's a reason and truth but it's a truth that every club deals with. We aren't one out on this. 

Focus on what we can control and the personel available. I can't sit here and say confidently that we did that in this finals series.

We had a dream injury run in 2021, which enabled us, the best team, to win the big one.

We have been top 4 (after H&A) 3 years in a row.  Lost two finals by a total of 9 points the first with a catastrophic injury in the first minutes which left the team mentally shattered for the first half.  

Only 2 teams make the GF (let's hope it is BNE and GWS) - it is bloody hard.  Kick straight and we would be off this week and playing GWS next week.  Its a fine line.

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19 minutes ago, monoccular said:

 

We had a dream injury run in 2021, which enabled us, the best team, to win the big one.

We have been top 4 (after H&A) 3 years in a row.  Lost two finals by a total of 9 points the first with a catastrophic injury in the first minutes which left the team mentally shattered for the first half.  

Only 2 teams make the GF (let's hope it is BNE and GWS) - it is bloody hard.  Kick straight and we would be off this week and playing GWS next week.  Its a fine line.

That's right. So I guess what I'm asking is at when is it acceptable to say the above and when does it become a counter-intuitive exercise? 

We talked a lot last year about how much Tom McDonald meant to our structure but when we had him back this year he was suddenly useless in a lot of people's eyes. Had Melksham been injured last year I don't think many people would have batted an eye lid. 

Teams deal with injuries and we've dealt with ours very well.

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It was the most undisciplined game I’ve seen from us since the bad days. We burnt teammates, gave away 50’s, didn’t go when it was our turn and failed to shut the game down with  minutes left. On top of that we again missed goals that would have had the game done. What leads to this on such an important night?

Also 
Whats happened to Ed Langdon and Christian Salem? Their output has plummeted. 

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