Ben Brown and our forward line transition

[demon3165 1,918]

13 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

The problem with a Brown and JVR combination is they are both full forwards (as much as anyone is a full forward these days). JVR doesn't find space on the lead and he struggles to out body opponents on long down the line kicks, all his best work is his ability to run and jump at the ball and his defensive pressure inside 50.

BBB can come up the ground to contest but we've seen him fatigue badly in that role last year. It's certainly better to have a CHF ahead of him.

Petty not going great guns by any means but he's shown the ability to cover the ground and create a contest and he's found a bit of footy on the lead too.

At the moment Petty seems to play CHF early in games and then Gawn seems to take that responsibility as the game goes on.

As for the backline I still maintain it's transition defending when the ball is on the ground (which can be helped by intercept marks but can also be helped by just being better at it) and the lack of run and skill to move the ball out cleanly that's coughing up scores. Stop butchering the ball or being so predictable with the rebound 50's and we defend just fine.

Caboult really got hold of Turner once? May and Lever weren't exactly destroyed. I'm not sure key back is some huge liability.

Bit hard to find space on the lead when you play one side of the ground all the time, players not looking to change angles, when in possession on the H/F line they never look inside just down one side. 

[loges 6,027]

BBB will have to come in because JVR will be suspended.

[McQueen 17,863]

2 hours ago, loges said:

BBB will have to come in because JVR will be suspended.

No he won’t. 

[Engorged Onion 9,262]

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/why-a-forgotten-forward-can-be-the-missing-piece-to-melbourne-s-premiership-puzzle-20230629-p5dkew.html

[layzie 28,723]

It's not the same though 

[Binmans PA 26,053]

1 hour ago, Engorged Onion said:

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/why-a-forgotten-forward-can-be-the-missing-piece-to-melbourne-s-premiership-puzzle-20230629-p5dkew.html

I don't mind him as a journalist. I don't agree with half of it, but at least he's using some Goodwin quotes to back up some arguments.

But, get Kade's name right FFS. It's not Kyle. He's not an American actor...

Edited July 2, 2023 by A F

[Demon Disciple 10,938]

Title sounds like a Harry Potter movie

[Turner 1,482]

He just didn't look likely today at all. Obviously the conditions were not suited, it's unfortunate fritsch succumbed to the foot when he did as i rkn Brown or grundy was prime to be subbed off otherwise. but BBB just cannot get himself off the ground to outreach opponents nor can he get enough seperation on the lead to actually use his workrate and take uncontensted marks as he used to do in his prime at NM.  it's an awkward one where he offers more if he can get the football than Grundy the forward but probably in tandem with JVR but also they won't just drop grundy no matter how uninfluential he is. and BBB is obviously far more threatening than Schache at AFL level too. 

[Dee Viney Intervention 1,483]

Whether BBB is fully fit or not our method of ball movement into our forward line does not suit him at all. Our ball movement is too slow, he needs it in quick to advantage side to take the mark or draw a free kick for chopping arms etc. Dump Kicks to a pocket don’t suit him as he is not strong enough to win one on one’s. He could in this scenario be used to bring ball to ground but our smalls are rarely front and square. Yesterday’s conditions were much better suited to JVR who is good at crashing packs and second efforts at ground ball. BBB is not the problem, method and selection is. We are not optimising the talents and skill sets of those in our forward line with the way we play and that is on coaches and selection committee. To be honest we are not even optimising the talents of our line coaches, surely it makes sense that a man that primarily plied his trade as a forward in Adem  Yze would not be better suited as a forward coach than Greg Stafford. Stafford who plied his trade as a ruck should be in charge of the midfield group. For most of my Melbourne supporting life we have been ****house. Don’t get me wrong I am happy that we won a premiership in 2021 and playing finals but we should be better than we are, and it pisses me off that we aren’t. Does that make me a bad supporter (member). I am not of the mould that near enough is good enough, a club that was happy that Chris Judd talked to us on his return to play in Victoria and that was a win.
 We have 2 all Australian rucks, an élite midfield and a great backline. But the same issue of forward line connection and inefficiency and we still don’t know what our best forward line looks like. Sort it out Melbourne for [censored] sake, you’ve had long enough.

 

[Supermercado 2,611]

He had a massive go in conditions that didn't suit him, but even as somebody who's been dying to get him back in the side any danger of a late change when you realise it's going to bucket down all day? I'm not confident Spargo or Melksham (if played from the start) would have done much more, but going with the selected lineup in that weather was optimistic.

[DeeSpencer 23,129]

27 minutes ago, Supermercado said:

He had a massive go in conditions that didn't suit him, but even as somebody who's been dying to get him back in the side any danger of a late change when you realise it's going to bucket down all day? I'm not confident Spargo or Melksham (if played from the start) would have done much more, but going with the selected lineup in that weather was optimistic.

I think big talls are still important in the wet, Ben bought it to the ground well. We didn’t go in too tall. Fritsch was meant to be the main deep target. Smith a mobile presence in the wet. 

Probably the plan was for Grundy or BBB to be subbed for Melk if things went well as the game opened up.

And Sam Taylor would’ve given JVR a smacking using his strength advantage.

Now Ben’s had a run and gets to play at probably his best ground, likely with JVR along side him in the best conditions. 

[Jaded No More 57,827]

Probably one of the worst games for him to return in. It was an absolutely no win situation in these conditions.

He fought manfully and gave us a contest, but FFS those conditions were the least suited to talls, and we ended up with 3 giants, 2 down on form and  1 back from a long lay off in the seniors. It was, quite frankly, bad team selection. 

JVR would have been as good in these conditions, and BB would have been better off coming in this week on a dry and fast deck where he has done his best work. 

[titan_uranus 22,358]

Brown had more touches than Melksham and Smith combined. He also had more touches than Riccardi and Hogan - obviously we had more ball and time in forward half but still, it shows he was working hard to get involved in conditions which weren't ideal at all.

There is zero point to bringing him back for that game, getting that performance, and then dropping him for a game at Marvel. It would outrank the decisions to drop Tomlinson and JVR. He will play this weekend, with JVR either taking Fritsch's spot or replacing Smith. We need to see if a Brown-JVR combo can work. 

[Fromgotowoewodin 728]

1 hour ago, Supermercado said:

He had a massive go in conditions that didn't suit him, but even as somebody who's been dying to get him back in the side any danger of a late change when you realise it's going to bucket down all day? I'm not confident Spargo or Melksham (if played from the start) would have done much more, but going with the selected lineup in that weather was optimistic.

One point I will defend the coaches on is not making a late change - we were playing 15th on the ladder ffs, we should just be able to name a 23, roll them out and win whether it was raining or not.

That we weren’t able to get the win shows how bad the whole lot are going rather than that we went in with too many talls imo

[Jaded No More 57,827]

1 minute ago, Fromgotowoewodin said:

One point I will defend the coaches on is not making a late change - we were playing 15th on the ladder ffs, we should just be able to name a 23, roll them out and win whether it was raining or not.

That we weren’t able to get the win shows how bad the whole lot are going rather than that we went in with too many talls imo

My issue is that we haven't settled on a best 23 and it's July!

I don't know what our best mix is. Do you? and more worryingly, do our coaches?

I just don't understand why we persevered with Petty forward, only to throw him down back again just as Tomlinson was finding good form and we were starting to get back to our defensive best. And it's not as if Petty is setting the world on fire down back. He's been good, but it feels counterproductive when we have someone else who can step into that role, and a forwardline screaming for anything resembling quality.

[monoccular 16,066]

Just now, Jaded No More said:

My issue is that we haven't settled on a best 23 and it's July!

I don't know what our best mix is. Do you? and more worryingly, do our coaches?

I just don't understand why we persevered with Petty forward, only to throw him down back again just as Tomlinson was finding good form and we were starting to get back to our defensive best. And it's not as if Petty is setting the world on fire down back. He's been good, but it feels counterproductive when we have someone else who can step into that role, and a forwardline screaming for anything resembling quality.

Very good point.  

Tommo going well in defence in Petty’s absence 

Petty just clicking as a forward before his injury - desperate for a strong tall forward. 
 

 

[Fromgotowoewodin 728]

4 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

My issue is that we haven't settled on a best 23 and it's July!

I don't know what our best mix is. Do you? and more worryingly, do our coaches?

I just don't understand why we persevered with Petty forward, only to throw him down back again just as Tomlinson was finding good form and we were starting to get back to our defensive best. And it's not as if Petty is setting the world on fire down back. He's been good, but it feels counterproductive when we have someone else who can step into that role, and a forwardline screaming for anything resembling quality.

I don’t really know but my guess is a fit BBB is in the coaches best 23, and I agree with that, he was massively important in 2021. But I’d have had him in for Smith this week instead of JVR. Next week I assume we get JVR in for Fritta. 

I’d also say that they rate Petty above Tomlinson which I also agree with, although it looks like they brought Petty back too early and Tomlinson was stiff to get dropped after his best game. I don’t think there’s a spot for Petty forward with both BBB, JVR and Smith so maybe Smith out and Petty forward?

[Jaded No More 57,827]

Just now, Fromgotowoewodin said:

I don’t really know but my guess is a fit BBB is in the coaches best 23, and I agree with that, he was massively important in 2021. But I’d have had him in for Smith this week instead of JVR. Next week I assume we get JVR in for Fritta. 

I’d also say that they rate Petty above Tomlinson which I also agree with, although it looks like they brought Petty back too early and Tomlinson was stiff to get dropped after his best game. I don’t think there’s a spot for Petty forward with both BBB, JVR and Smith so maybe Smith out and Petty forward?

I think there is no argument to be made that Petty is a better player down back than Tomlinson. We all recognise that.

However on team balance, Tomlinson can get the job done in the backline without robbing us of our defensive power IMO. But do we have someone who can play the role that TMac played in 2021 other than Petty? I think not.

BB is not a Petty replacement. They are very different players. BB is a stay at home forward. He has neither the speed, nor the ground level agility nor the fitness to play the high forward role that we've been desperately missing since Tmac got injured.

I would argue that BB need to play and Gawn has to not play forward, because a forward he ain't.

JVR could play the Tmac role long term, but it's asking too much from him right at this moment. I think we can play all of JVR, BB and Petty forward, especially with Fritta injured and especially if we let go of the hope that Gawn becomes a goal kicking marking forward. 

You would play JVR is the Fritta role, because he is very competitive at ground level and is a good kick for goal. You play Petty in the Tmac role, to give us an actual marking target to kick to going inside 50, and you play BB deep for that "kick it long and deep and hope" play which will either result in a mark or will create a spillage to give our smalls a chance to crumb closer to goal, not 55m out on an 87 degree angle! 

For mine Smith is neither here nor there. He is more of a defensive medium forward. You could play him instead of Chandler or ANB realistically, but that won't happen. If they want to keep trying him then he can stay ahead of JVR for now. 

[DeeMee 735]

I thought BBB toiled hard and did some ok things.

Of course it’s always going to be hard for him to outmark Gawn, Grundy and whatever other players we have trying to spoil him in the same pack.

[The heart beats true 16,141]

20 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

My issue is that we haven't settled on a best 23 and it's July!

I don't know what our best mix is. Do you? and more worryingly, do our coaches?

I just don't understand why we persevered with Petty forward, only to throw him down back again just as Tomlinson was finding good form and we were starting to get back to our defensive best. And it's not as if Petty is setting the world on fire down back. He's been good, but it feels counterproductive when we have someone else who can step into that role, and a forwardline screaming for anything resembling quality.

I find this bemusing too.

We clearly value defence over attack, but for the last 12 months it’s become our Achilles heel. Our appetite for risk means Petty stays back even though the forward line is screaming out for a contested marking player, even when Tomlinson has proven to be at least 80% as effective as Petty down back.

We can’t keep teams to 50 points and expect to win. I would have thought last year proved that.

[dazzledavey36 48,746]

32 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

My issue is that we haven't settled on a best 23 and it's July!

I don't know what our best mix is. Do you? and more worryingly, do our coaches?

I just don't understand why we persevered with Petty forward, only to throw him down back again just as Tomlinson was finding good form and we were starting to get back to our defensive best. And it's not as if Petty is setting the world on fire down back. He's been good, but it feels counterproductive when we have someone else who can step into that role, and a forwardline screaming for anything resembling quality.

I honestly think the coaches genuinely have no idea and the shifting of Petty down back again after being so strong with him being trialled up forward sums it all up really.

[Fromgotowoewodin 728]

23 minutes ago, Jaded No More said:

I think there is no argument to be made that Petty is a better player down back than Tomlinson. We all recognise that.

However on team balance, Tomlinson can get the job done in the backline without robbing us of our defensive power IMO. But do we have someone who can play the role that TMac played in 2021 other than Petty? I think not.

BB is not a Petty replacement. They are very different players. BB is a stay at home forward. He has neither the speed, nor the ground level agility nor the fitness to play the high forward role that we've been desperately missing since Tmac got injured.

I would argue that BB need to play and Gawn has to not play forward, because a forward he ain't.

JVR could play the Tmac role long term, but it's asking too much from him right at this moment. I think we can play all of JVR, BB and Petty forward, especially with Fritta injured and especially if we let go of the hope that Gawn becomes a goal kicking marking forward. 

You would play JVR is the Fritta role, because he is very competitive at ground level and is a good kick for goal. You play Petty in the Tmac role, to give us an actual marking target to kick to going inside 50, and you play BB deep for that "kick it long and deep and hope" play which will either result in a mark or will create a spillage to give our smalls a chance to crumb closer to goal, not 55m out on an 87 degree angle! 

For mine Smith is neither here nor there. He is more of a defensive medium forward. You could play him instead of Chandler or ANB realistically, but that won't happen. If they want to keep trying him then he can stay ahead of JVR for now. 

I back JVR to do the TMac role, he’s young but he’s shown enough imo. TMac 2021 33 goals in 22 games, 1.43 goals per game. JVR 2023 17 goals in 12, 1.41 goals per game.

TMac 2021 5.3 marks per game is where JVR needs to lift, currently getting 3.2. More space in the forward line and a bit more roaming onto the wings gets him more marks. 

Our best 23 imo would have JVR, BBB and Fritsch and Petty would go back pushing Tomlinson out, given the Fritta injury I think Petty forward, Tomlinson in down back, Smith out. 

Rucks playing as forwards hasn’t worked imo. It works when you can outwork your opponent and push forward on your own, or somehow sneak a mismatch on a smaller defender. Teams are playing a tall on them both when they go in and so they aren’t taking marks, just blocking up space that the other forwards could work in. 

Edited July 3, 2023 by Fromgotowoewodin

[drdrake 3,037]

You can't have B Brown and the resting ruck in same forward line.  

Our small forwards work so high up the ground that they can't get back at the feet of our forwards.

Pickett is looking for easy goals out the back.

I would give Grundy a spell this week, bring in JVR, have Brown, Smith, JVR.  

Bring in Laurie or debut Sestan.  

[Jaded No More 57,827]

Just now, Fromgotowoewodin said:

I back JVR to do the TMac role, he’s young but he’s shown enough imo. TMac 2021 33 goals in 22 games, 1.43 goals per game. JVR 2023 17 goals in 12, 1.41 goals per game.

TMac 5.3 marks per game is where JVR needs to lift, currently getting 3.2. More space in the forward line and a bit more roaming onto the wings gets him more marks. 

Our best 23 imo would have JVR, BBB and Fritsch and Petty would go back pushing Tomlinson out, given the Fritta injury I think Petty forward, Tomlinson in down back, Smith out. 

Rucks playing as forwards hasn’t worked imo. It works when you can outwork your opponent and push forward on your own, or somehow sneak a mismatch on a smaller defender. Teams are playing a tall on them both when they go in and so they aren’t taking marks, just blocking up space that the other forwards could work in. 

I don’t think JVR has the tank to cover the ground like Petty does right now. But I could be wrong. 
Either way, our forwardline is a [censored] show and has to be fixed before it ruins our whole season. 

[Fromgotowoewodin 728]

1 minute ago, Jaded No More said:

I don’t think JVR has the tank to cover the ground like Petty does right now. But I could be wrong. 
Either way, our forwardline is a [censored] show and has to be fixed before it ruins our whole season. 

He probably doesn’t have TMac’s tank, but TMac is a pretty elite runner. I think JVR has enough of a tank to get up onto the wings and back.
 

The problem is 2021 we had TMac and BBB leading to the wings and then kicking it into an open forward line, now our full backs are at the centre and everyone else is pushed inside 50, no space, no leads, scrappy entries, lotsa points.