Boot Camp 2017 cancelled by Players

[Clintosaurus 7,843]

9 hours ago, hardtack said:

This is Demonland... this thread has at least another 83 pages worth of repetition left in it.

183 if we lose Round 1.

[DemonOX 8,791]

Like I said earlier if the camp were held correctly last year by the club then perhaps it wouldn’t have been an issue this yr. 

it will be nice when Melbourne actually start to work like a professional club and stop these embarrassing moments which have been all too often in the last 10 yrs. 

 

[Hot as Hell 466]

The club has come a long way in recent years, yet the lack of internal protocols that should have kept this fiasco in house, demonstrates how far we still have to go. 

It is unfortunate we remain distracted from our 2018 objectives and it is not even Christmas. 

[FarNorthernD 5,861]

95% of me knows this has been completely overblown and will have no effect on next season. A lesson learnt and dealt with. Finals bound we are.  

The other MFCSS 5% of me is being visited by ghosts of Christmas Neelds past. The good times are over before they begin as infighting and low moral cause us to drop back down to the bottom four. It would be such a Melbourne thing to happen.  

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

2 minutes ago, fndee said:

  The other MFCSS 5% of me is being visited by ghosts of Christmas Neelds past. The good times are over before they begin as infighting and low moral cause us to drop back down to the bottom four. It would be such a Melbourne thing to happen.  

 

This.

[DubDee 25,840]

do we have a PR dept at MFC?!?!  no matter what the actual story is here the fact that we haven't been able to get a handle on it is a joke.

makes you wonder whether the players really did shaft Goody and there is not much we can say

[Lucifers Hero 39,737]

Drunken indicated some in our leadership voiced concerns about the camp. 

The leadership team is:

• Vince:  32 y.o
• Lewis: 31 y.o
• Gawn:  Injured most of 2017.  History of hamstring injuries.  Working hard to get back to his best.
• Viney:  carried foot injury all thru last preseason and 2017 season and has not yet recovered. 
• Jones: reported calf issues a few weeks ago and will be 30 next month.
• Mcdonald:  Recovering from double ankle surgery - set to join main training after Christmas.

All are over 30 and/or have leg/foot injuries.  And, we know of other players who have foot/back niggles/concerns.  So, I can see why one or more leaders would have genuine concerns about player well being and injury risk.  What does not make sense is the club wanting to take aging/injured/recovering players on a grueling camp. 

It makes me wonder if the club fully thought it through or handled player concerns properly.  Add AFLPA to the mix and a leak to the media and we have a very bad look story.  Unfortunately, it adds to the 'Demons are mentally weak' narrative and it will be milked, mercilessly next year. 

I'm not interested in knowing who the players were.  Just want us to stop shooting ourselves in the foot.  And, if there is an 'elephant in the room' over this, Goodwin and Co need to decamp it asap! 

 

Footnote:  I believe Melbourne Storm (Comando style camp) and Hawthorn (Kakoda) take only new recruits these days. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Lucifer's Hero

[jackaub 1,402]

Complete lack of leadership from the whole club on display for all to see

Another award winning cringeworthy Melbourne moment

We make it so easy for others to pott us.Reinforces the long held perception by others of a weak ar $#@ed joke of a club.

I am not in aposition to judge the merits of cancellation one way or another probably doesnt matter in the end

What matters mostly to me is the perception left and the impression given.

I really thought we were over this BS.Obviously not! 

 

 

[old55 23,548]

23 minutes ago, Hot as Hell said:

The club has come a long way in recent years, yet the lack of internal protocols that should have kept this fiasco in house, demonstrates how far we still have to go. 

It is unfortunate we remain distracted from our 2018 objectives and it is not even Christmas. 

For me the issue isn't about the camp per se, it's about the lack of effective early communication.

To be successful the whole organisation needs to be pulling in the same direction and the fact that the camp was cancelled so late indicates this was not the case.  I know for a fact that it was planned since before the GF.  The whole club needs to accept some responsibility for this.

What I want to see is unity of purpose, I don't want to see a divide between FD and players, I want to see shared authority and responsibility.  IMO the worst outcome in this would have been forcing the players to go on the camp - the club listening to player concerns is a better outcome, even if it happened late - better late than never.

There's a glass half empty view but the glass half full view view is that this unites the club with everyone pulling in the same direction and everyone taking full responsibility for results.  The players have put their hand up - let's see what happens next.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,388]

The issue for me isn't wether the camp went ahead or not it's how the players went about it. I find amusing the number of posts suggesting the players went to the ALPA to seek guidance and how to go about it the right way. This is hardly a complex legal issue that requires specialist advise. The right way would of been for Jones and or Viney to speak to the coaching group first, then based on those discussions determine wether there was a need to take it further. How do these players manage all other relationships in their lives wether they be professional or personal. No I don't think it means the 2018 season is a right off but it does raise a few questions....

Would be interested to know what Jordan Lewis's involvement was if any. 

What were the reasons we supposedly got rid of Watts for again.

Were the players minds already made up and is that why they didn't approach the coach first.

Really poor form from people who should know better. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

58 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Drunken indicated some in our leadership voiced concerns about the camp. 

The leadership team is:

• Vince:  32 y.o
• Lewis: 31 y.o
• Gawn:  Injured most of 2017.  History of hamstring injuries.  Working hard to get back to his best.
• Viney:  carried foot injury all thru last preseason and 2017 season and has not yet recovered. 
• Jones: reported calf issues a few weeks ago and will be 30 next month.
• Mcdonald:  Recovering from double ankle surgery - set to join main training after Christmas.

All are over 30 and/or have leg/foot injuries.  And, we know of other players who have foot/back niggles/concerns.  So, I can see why one or more leaders would have genuine concerns about player well being and injury risk.  What does not make sense is the club wanting to take aging/injured/recovering players on a grueling camp. 

It makes me wonder if the club fully thought it through or handled player concerns properly.  Add AFLPA to the mix and a leak to the media and we have a very bad look story.  Unfortunately, it adds to the 'Demons are mentally weak' narrative and it will be milked, mercilessly next year. 

I'm not interested in knowing who the players were.  Just want us to stop shooting ourselves in the foot.  And, if there is an 'elephant in the room' over this, Goodwin and Co need to decamp it asap! 

 

Footnote:  I believe Melbourne Storm (Comando style camp) and Hawthorn (Kakoda) take only new recruits these days. 

McDonald is the one that leapt to my thoughts and as you have pointed out coming off the ankle surgeries it would be idiotic to make him participate. So many of our important players are still trying to get their bodies right it is pretty stupid to put them through this just before Xmas. I don't really care about the ins and outs all I care about is getting the team cherry ripe for round 1. The rest is just noise.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

47 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

The issue for me isn't wether the camp went ahead or not it's how the players went about it. I find amusing the number of posts suggesting the players went to the ALPA to seek guidance and how to go about it the right way. This is hardly a complex legal issue that requires specialist advise. The right way would of been for Jones and or Viney to speak to the coaching group first, then based on those discussions determine wether there was a need to take it further. How do these players manage all other relationships in their lives wether they be professional or personal. No I don't think it means the 2018 season is a right off but it does raise a few questions....

Would be interested to know what Jordan Lewis's involvement was if any. 

What were the reasons we supposedly got rid of Watts for again.

Were the players minds already made up and is that why they didn't approach the coach first.

Really poor form from people who should know better. 

We don't know the discussions that took place. Was the playing group told participation would be mandatory even for those recovering from injury/surgery (McDonald and Viney in particular)? We're their concerns dealt with by saying there will be doctors and specialists onsite to manage any injuries? Perhaps this wasn't enough for those who feared the risk outweighed the benefits and sought advice as to whether it was placing them at an unnecessary risk and what their obligations were to participate. Like it or not this IS a profession for them even if a profession unlike most others and the club DOES have OH&S obligations.

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,702]

19 hours ago, Demon77 said:

Without being in the inner sanctum it's difficult to ascertain how much damage the camp caused last year.

Most of us were peeved with the gruelling mid season fixturing of four games in 18 days when players were dropping like flies. Maybe we should have gone to the AFLPA about the fixture.

I don't profess to know anything about the camp but from what I have read the club assured the players better safety implementations than last year.

I find both sides of the argument interesting but the lack of trust toward the FD is a little unsettling IMO.

If you really think about it the gruelling 4 games in 18 days mixed in with this boot camp at the start of pre season tipped us over the edge. We didnt give a yep after R15. Let all these clowns talk about it in the media i reckon the boys made the right call. Very sceptical of Misson with these camps and what not behind the players on this one.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,751]

16 hours ago, Petraccattack said:

These 14 clowns should be named and shamed.  

As members we have the right to know who this clique is that think they are bigger than the club.

This thread is full of double standards.

I seem to recall there was a lot of criticism of another club's players a few years ago for not speaking to the AFLPA or their managers when there were concerns about a particular course of action taken by that club. Would we be concerned if our players willingly complied with an apparently dodgy supplements program by implicitly trusting everything told to them by a football department and a suspect "sports scientist"? Or would we say those players thought they were "bigger than the club"?

[sue 9,102]

Not going to indulge in tearing my remaining hair when as usual the details as unknown to us (eg. 14 players - where did that number come from, is it relaible?), so I'll comment on boot camps themselves. 

As I understand it there are 2 things they are meant to achieve - team bonding and stressing players so they will be familiar with it and so perform better when under stress and mental pressure in a game.  Team bonding can be done by other means which are less likely to exhaust players and interrupt their football training and getting their bodies right, so I'd focus on the latter and ask: 

Is there any evidence that it works for football players?  (I mean evidence beyond stating "x went on a boot camp and won the flag" since there are many other variables.)  For example, soldiers do have to carry on when sleep deprived, footy players don't.   Apparently last year's boot camp did not help in Round 23.  Was the team under mental and physical stress then (or in other matches we should have won) or was there something else at play?   I suspect the latter and whatever it was, whether mental or footy specific, it needs addressing by things other than boot camps. 

[nutbean 8,838]

36 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We don't know the discussions that took place. Was the playing group told participation would be mandatory even for those recovering from injury/surgery (McDonald and Viney in particular)? We're their concerns dealt with by saying there will be doctors and specialists onsite to manage any injuries? Perhaps this wasn't enough for those who feared the risk outweighed the benefits and sought advice as to whether it was placing them at an unnecessary risk and what their obligations were to participate. Like it or not this IS a profession for them even if a profession unlike most others and the club DOES have OH&S obligations.

Salem and Tyson were not injured going into last years boot camp - they were injured as a result of the bootcamp. The one thing i would be fairly certain of - with the amount of science going into training and the input from the medico's on what players can and can't do I would be more than confident that players coming off surgery would certainly be assessed as to what they could and couldn't do on this sort of camp. For that matter, as we have seen, the medico's have input into all training hence the rehab groups and modified training for some. A bootcamp would be no different.

[Fork 'em 6,983]

1 hour ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

This thread is full of double standards.

I seem to recall there was a lot of criticism of another club's players a few years ago for not speaking to the AFLPA or their managers when there were concerns about a particular course of action taken by that club. Would we be concerned if our players willingly complied with an apparently dodgy supplements program by implicitly trusting everything told to them by a football department and a suspect "sports scientist"? Or would we say those players thought they were "bigger than the club"?

Apples and oranges.
One was club sanctioned cheating.
The other a training camp.
Unless we planned to break out the needles while on camp, there is no comparison.

 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Fork 'em

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

17 hours ago, Demon77 said:

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2017/12/18/this-is-embarrassing-moons-slams-dees/

 

Cameron Mooney can go to take a huge jump off a cliff, as far as his ideas on the MFC might be concerned. He is a battler amongst football commentators and football-interested parties, and once again, in order to make a headline or a by-line he has come forth on this issue as expected. This is not an issue anyway. It is an agreement between coaching staff and players, wherein some players expressed an opinion in their training sequencing at present and simply, were heard. Big deal?

[Deemania since 56 6,634]

16 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

'Spud' Frawley: could there be a more appropriate knick name!

Derr, whatdya mean?

[rjay 24,917]

3 hours ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

The issue for me isn't wether the camp went ahead or not it's how the players went about it. I find amusing the number of posts suggesting the players went to the ALPA to seek guidance and how to go about it the right way. This is hardly a complex legal issue that requires specialist advise. The right way would of been for Jones and or Viney to speak to the coaching group first, then based on those discussions determine wether there was a need to take it further. How do these players manage all other relationships in their lives wether they be professional or personal. No I don't think it means the 2018 season is a right off but it does raise a few questions....

Would be interested to know what Jordan Lewis's involvement was if any. 

What were the reasons we supposedly got rid of Watts for again.

Were the players minds already made up and is that why they didn't approach the coach first.

Really poor form from people who should know better. 

Ok, let me take a different angle on this.

Why did the coach leave it until the last week to announce another boot camp?

Did he know that the players weren't keen on it and kept it from them until the last minute.

On this I'm only making a supposition, I do find it interesting though.

The communication has been poor from both sides and as a club I wish we didn't have sides but a team working together.

For some reason this wasn't the case and I wouldn't be laying the blame just with the players.

The coach and FD have to take at least some responsibility for this years aborted camp and all the responsibility for last years debacle.

[Redleg 40,895]

3 hours ago, jackaub said:

 

We make it so easy for others to pott us.Reinforces the long held perception by others of a weak ar $#@ed joke of a club.

 

 

 

That is because we are the only club to have players drunk in public, drink driving, smashing cars, taking drugs, fighting, attacking taxi drivers, publicly urinating, sexting, coupling with underage females, being photographed naked, skylarking and getting injured, attacking women in restaurants with chopsticks, etc, etc, etc.

[rjay 24,917]

22 minutes ago, Redleg said:

That is because we are the only club to have players drunk in public, drink driving, smashing cars, taking drugs, fighting, attacking taxi drivers, publicly urinating, sexting, coupling with underage females, being photographed naked, skylarking and getting injured, attacking women in restaurants with chopsticks, etc, etc, etc.

Yes 'Red', we're only one good "chopstick" away from this being old news...and the media moving on to the next outrage hopefully with another club.

The AFL players have been a bit too well behaved this off season so far.

[Biffen 12,943]

How about a summer camp in Cancun like the old days?

a few slabs and drinking games. And a bit of beach work for their tans?

[old55 23,548]

2 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Apples and oranges.
One was club sanctioned cheating.
The other a training camp.
Unless we planned to break out the needles while on camp, there is no comparison.

 

Yes but it does illustrate that there is "a line" where the activity does not promote the greater good and it's shallow analysis to say that line is where the activity is breaking the rules.  It's somewhere on the continuum between 100 x 100s and Essendon's drug program

[Satyriconhome 10,858]

Groundhog.....click...rrrr...Groundhog....click....rrrr...

Believe the "BC 14'  are going to be carried around Luna Park on Family Day in  an open wagon, before being tongue lashed by Robbo

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