2017 Post Mortem

[Pates 9,660]

On 27/08/2017 at 5:06 PM, Bobby McKenzie said:

 Why are we a laughing stock Pates? If we are a laughing stock there are nine other teams behind us who are more of your so called laughing Stock.

I've been on holiday the last few days (a good escape, but I have to admit I feel it kind of put a dampener on it), but look at how the football world has reacted to our choke and tell me our club isn't a joke. 

I'll admit some of it I've had to chuckle at (otherwise I'd just get angry), but it's clear to me the wider AFL community still sees us as the butt of everybody's jokes. 

We made great inroads to claim relevance and credibility, I can't help but feel a lot of that has been ruined by choking at the final hurdle. 

[Willmoy1947 4,085]

Just so as i understand.........Adelaide had no reason to win@@@@@@!!!!!!!!!######

                                                   West Coast had every reason to win for not only the Bloody state, the BloodyAFL  and the Coach but they won for a conveniently opportune amount. Thank you Maggots.%%%%%&&&&&&!!!!!!

                                                   The other two were just promised decent draws in 2018.

                                                   And the TWSNBN, well let us just hope the Brownlow turns up in a coffee in New York and JH doesn't look like Arnold Schwarzenegger on the night.

[Demons11 7,007]

Balls!!!!!

[DeeZee 7,378]

Anyone else still feeling like absolute crap?

I can't even bring myself to look at any of the footy shows or listen to sen or anything, just makes me angry.

[titan_uranus 25,000]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Interestingly earlier in the year we were up the top for quarters won so something went horribly wrong along the way.

Although Richmond have 5th youngest list their best players are all 25+ ours are 20yo's

We ended the year equal-4th for quarters won, so we stayed up there really.

We won the same number of quarters this year as GWS and Geelong and more than West Coast, Richmond and Essendon. 

Problem is, we lost too many first quarters, by too much, which meant we spent too many games playing catch-up footy. The Collingwood game is a good example. We won 3 of the 4 quarters but lost the match. 

45 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Hard to get an exact explanation from Champion Data, but believe it relates to chains of ball movement. A low BME figure would be an indication of ball movement chains breaking down through turnovers etc. 

Poor skills? Not working hard enough as receivers? Lack of experience (knowing where to run to receive the ball and/or create space)?

I'd hazard a guess at too many turnovers at half-forward. I reckon we get enough of the ball across half-back and through the middle but our chains break down at half-forward. A double-edged sword, too. It robs us of scores, obviously, but half-forward is IMO the worst place to turn it over. We're setup for attack, we give the opposition the ball and they break through our set up and find players on their own in the forward half (compared, say, with turning it over at half-back when we're set up in defence and the defensive 50 is clogged up already).

[beelzebub 23,348]

Interestingly Collingwood only won ONE qtr on Sat.

Handy stat that 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

9 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

We ended the year equal-4th for quarters won, so we stayed up there really.

We won the same number of quarters this year as GWS and Geelong and more than West Coast, Richmond and Essendon. 

Problem is, we lost too many first quarters, by too much, which meant we spent too many games playing catch-up footy. The Collingwood game is a good example. We won 3 of the 4 quarters but lost the match. 

Yeah right, I read it as 4th last as I assumed it was a post of all negative stats. Equal 4th is decent, just shows we still have to figure out how to halt momentum of other teams when they get a run on. In numerous games this year one quarter of 6 or 7 goals killed us.

[Sir Why You Little 37,033]

10 hours ago, Ben E said:

There's nothing like the present, I guess.

Yeah, I was at the G for both those losses, too, until the bitter end. Huge losses they were. We were never in those games though, not even close. Different kind of feeling then, knowing that the better teams won and we weren't quite good enough.

Go back a few years earlier to the '87 pre-lim. For me, nothing can rival the hurt and disappointment of that result, that missed opportunity. There at VFL Park (near the dreaded Eishold pocket!) as a 13 year old, I remember sobbing uncontrollably at the end - along with thousands of others - for what seemed like an eternity on my dad's shoulder and into my Melb scarf. Got the scarf still - don't think it's been washed since. No tears this year, just anger and exasperation.

I to still have the same scarf as i wore that day Ben, unwashed!!!

 

[jnrmac 20,058]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

The evidence, regardless of our finish to the year, is 12 wins and improvement in many areas across the board.  That's evidence of a very good coach, but he'll need to show he is a great coach to get us to the next level.  

Our second half of the year was garbage.

Our first quarters were garbage all year. We lost 11 for a net 126 deficit. We kicked 5 goals once.

He may well turn out to be a good coach but he isn't yet. Some signiifcant flaws he has been unable to address.  

[Dee1987 277]

1 hour ago, DeeZee said:

Anyone else still feeling like absolute crap?

I can't even bring myself to look at any of the footy shows or listen to sen or anything, just makes me angry.

Yeah I'm hearing you, frustrated, angry, trying to get on with things and forget football, a bit hard when we live in a fish bowl. It honestly feels like the Insides have been ripped out, it's makes you feel sick

[Akum 2,660]

2 hours ago, bing181 said:

Hard to get an exact explanation from Champion Data, but believe it relates to chains of ball movement. A low BME figure would be an indication of ball movement chains breaking down through turnovers etc. 

Poor skills? Not working hard enough as receivers? Lack of experience (knowing where to run to receive the ball and/or create space)?

Yeah hard to know exactly what it means, isn't it?

I suppose in general terms, we just really need to improve in uncontested footy. We are very very good at contested ball and pressure acts etc, but improving this even more isn't necessarily going to get us further up the ladder. To do that, we need to work on dramatically improving what we do with the ball once we've won it. 

 

[dees189227 12,388]

as I put in another thread I have been away for 4 days. So I escaped the media stuff on monday. Has no one tracked down Goodwin yet just to ask how he felt sunday night waiting our finals position fade? 

I know Jones did  a presser on monday but surely goodwin is still around the club. 

[biggestred 5,076]

I just went to start watching my recording of Heroes that was on the ABC tonight, about the AFLW.

 

Then i remembered that the womens team lost go the bottom of the ladder GWS and cost themselves a finals spot.... on percentage.

 

Now im angry again

[Older demon 2,741]

Until TMac went forward I felt we lack a contested marking target up forward. With Hogan missing so many games and a small forward line we tend to lower the eyes and try to kick to smaller targets. Remember when you have 8 players running into the square at bounces it leaves you unable to kick to a contest in the forward line as there are too many 2 on 1's. Very noticeable last week in 1st quarter we kept missing the targets up forward and the ball rebounded out so quickly. We rely heavily on Jesse when he is up forward and Pedo for contested marking.

Adelaide take contested marks with Walker and Jenkins as do GWS with Patton, Cameron and Lobb, Geelong rely heavily on Hawkins and moved Harry up forward, Essendon use Hooker and Daniher. Power have Dixon, Westoff, Ryder and Trengove. Sydney run with 2 rucks, one up forward, Reid and a bloke named Franklin. Only Richmond get away with the lone key forward. 

WE desperately need Weid to come on, Hoges to get in a full season and TMac to play up forward. That will speed up entry into the forward line as you kick to a marking target and crumb of the spoil.

[bing181 9,218]

4 hours ago, Akum said:

Yeah hard to know exactly what it means, isn't it?

I suppose in general terms, we just really need to improve in uncontested footy. 

Yes. Think it means that we're not very good at hanging on to the ball. Any number of reasons, even including game plan (e.g. plough on regardless as opposed to chip it round and wait for an opportunity) but with work, presumably it's the kind of thing that can be improved on with more experienced players, more skilled players (though the two go together), and more intent/intensity/concentration over 4 quarters.

I know it's something that many here don't like hearing, but we're still a young team. Yes, there are other young teams, but what's hidden amongst that stat is that many of our key players (Viney, Oliver, Hogan, Petracca, most of our backline, even Gawn in ruck-years) are young/inexperienced, and that's where it's falling down at the moment.

Edited August 31, 2017 by bing181

[Wiseblood 24,637]

11 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Our second half of the year was garbage.

Our first quarters were garbage all year. We lost 11 for a net 126 deficit. We kicked 5 goals once.

He may well turn out to be a good coach but he isn't yet. Some signiifcant flaws he has been unable to address.  

Garbage is a strong word.  We lost half of our first quarters.  That's not great and needs to be addressed, but it's hardly garbage.

It's the same with our second half of the year.  No doubt we struggled, but we still won games of footy.  Garbage would suggest we didn't win a thing.

I agree that there are flaws in the gameplan that need to be addressed, and we need our younger players to continue to develop, but I still see Goodwin as a very good coach.  As I said in my last post, he needs to take the next step for us to begin to play finals on a consistent basis.

[Akum 2,660]

Someone told me there was apparently a caller on SEN this morning who said that CJ (Craig Jennings) will be at the Pies next year. If so, to lose him is IMO just about the worst thing that could happen to us in the off-season.

Hope it's just a run-of-the-mill SEN call (though why pick out CJ?)

Edited September 1, 2017 by Akum
MFCSS

[old55 23,547]

Great wins: Crows (A), Eagles (A)

Good wins: Saints (E), Essendon (E), Dogs (E), Port (MCG)

Respectable wins: Collingwood (MCG), Saints (MCG)

Ordinary wins: Carlton (MCG), Gold Coast (TP), Carlton (MCG), Lions (MCG)

Honorable losses: Cats (E), Tigers (MCG)

Expectable losses: Swans (MCG), Crows (TIO), GWS (A)

Poor losses: Freo (MCG), Hawthorn (MCG), North (MCG), North (A), Collingwood (MCG)

There's more "Great" and "Good" wins than "Poor" losses.  I think the former show that we can compete at the highest level (including the losses to the Cats and Tigers) - we defeated 4 of the top 8.  But the sheer number of the latter show that there's an ongoing cultural problem at the club.

Goodwin rightly says he's not interested in ancient history and that this group is writing their own story.  There's some good chapters and bad chapters in that story already. 

[beelzebub 23,348]

3 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Garbage is a strong word.  We lost half of our first quarters.  That's not great and needs to be addressed, but it's hardly garbage.

It's the same with our second half of the year.  No doubt we struggled, but we still won games of footy.  Garbage would suggest we didn't win a thing.

I agree that there are flaws in the gameplan that need to be addressed, and we need our younger players to continue to develop, but I still see Goodwin as a very good coach.  As I said in my last post, he needs to take the next step for us to begin to play finals on a consistent basis.

The thing that annoys/worries/ concerns me is we effectively got worse towards the end.

Maybe just me but Id expect a coach , who I presume to always be open to learning  together with a list getting back on the park to show resilience and improvement.

But we didnt

[jnrmac 20,058]

6 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

Garbage is a strong word.  We lost half of our first quarters.  That's not great and needs to be addressed, but it's hardly garbage.

It's the same with our second half of the year.  No doubt we struggled, but we still won games of footy.  Garbage would suggest we didn't win a thing.

I agree that there are flaws in the gameplan that need to be addressed, and we need our younger players to continue to develop, but I still see Goodwin as a very good coach.  As I said in my last post, he needs to take the next step for us to begin to play finals on a consistent basis.

Opening quarters from round 15 when we were likely headed for finals..

Swans 9 shots to our 4

Carlton 7 shots to our 3

Adelaide 9 to our 4

Port 3 to our 8

North 8 to 2 (windy)

GWS 14 to 3 (windy)

St Kilda 2 to our 9

Brisbane 5 to our 6

Coll 11 to our 4

Garbage I would call it. Major flaw in our ability to turn up.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

3 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Opening quarters from round 15 when we were likely headed for finals..

Swans 9 shots to our 4

Carlton 7 shots to our 3

Adelaide 9 to our 4

Port 3 to our 8

North 8 to 2 (windy)

GWS 14 to 3 (windy)

St Kilda 2 to our 9

Brisbane 5 to our 6

Coll 11 to our 4

Garbage I would call it. Major flaw in our ability to turn up.

Your first comment on your earlier post was 'our first quarters have been garbage all year'.  Those stats, from round 15, are pretty poor (even though we still won a few of them, albeit not many), but does not take into account the whole year.  Nice job changing the goal posts and cherry picking the stats to suit your argument.

[Redleg 40,895]

18 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Interestingly Collingwood only won ONE qtr on Sat.

Handy stat that 

But won it well enough to give it a win. 

[beelzebub 23,348]

8 minutes ago, Redleg said:

But won it well enough to give it a win. 

exactly...but my point is it really makes a mockery of the qtrs won stat !!  As with nearly all stats..without context or accompaniment of  an allied piece of info..   It's just dog poo

[beelzebub 23,348]

4 hours ago, Akum said:

Someone told me there was apparently a caller on SEN this morning who said that CJ (Craig Jennings) will be at the Pies next year. If so, to lose him is IMO just about the worst thing that could happen to us in the off-season.

Hope it's just a run-of-the-mill SEN call (though why pick out CJ?)

Id still like someone with some insight to actually qualify what this guy does. Cheers

[Coq au vin 755]

On 30/08/2017 at 0:35 PM, Lucifer's Hero said:

What went wrong on Saturday?  Obviously a lot!  But I noticed a major flaw in how we played:  We forgot 'Team First'! 

From the get go we were 'selfish' like in years past when self-preservation, stats, being the hero etc was what mattered.  This resulted in tackling, positioning, disposal, structures, team rules etc going out the window.   So Collingwood scored 6.3 from our turnovers in the first quarter. 

Unfortunately our leaders (and not coincidentally the pre Roos players):  Jones, TMac, Gawn were the worst at selfish play, virtually for the whole day.  So we ended up with no or little leadership.  That selfish play lingered until a few kids like Petracca, Oliver etc took over. 

Why?  My theory is 'Comfort Zone Syndrome' (a made up phrase).  It has been mentioned in other threads that under pressure players revert to their 'comfort zones' eg Jones, TMac, Gawn become selfish, Watts withdraws, Viney takes everyone on, Tyson kicks the ball nowhere, Hunt forgets to slow just before kicking etc.  Sometimes the pressure is physical and real.  But often it is not and that is when they revert to their 'comfort zones'. 

Our problem is players do not snap out of their comfort zones until the end of a quarter and often it is too late.  Our leaders don't act because they can't see it as they themselves are engulfed by their own 'comfort zone'.   Not a problem when it is one or two players but a huge problem when it afflicts most of the team like it did on Saturday.  This 'comfort zone syndrome' is undoubtedly subconscious and highly individual therefore a major, major problem. 

Probably, it is the reverting to one's 'comfort zone' when under pressure that makes us look mentally weak.    But 'mental weakness does not exist in a vaccum.  When expectations are highest, the pressure goes up and the more likely comfort zones will kick in.  I can think of no other reason why we crack under expectations.

Somewhere, this week a poster suggested a sports psychologist.  If my theory is correct then we need a bunch of them.

Did anyone else notice in the past few weeks the players would often hand ball back to a player who had just handballed it to them when they were in a poor position, as if to say "here it is back to you- it's a hot potato and you can get tackled with it rather than me even though you're in a worse position"? Almost like revenge for putting them under pressure rather than looking for a better option for the team and the game.

Edited September 1, 2017 by Diamond
Punctuation