Forward set-up, with and without Jesse

[wellplayed31 6]

Neita spent a lot of time down back before becoming a gun forward. I reckon TMac showed what experience as a back man does for your performance up forward last night. You could almost feel his joy at taking on the positive role in the one on one contests. 

[Deemented Are Go! 3,677]

Coincidence.

[McQueen 17,864]

3 hours ago, juzzk1d said:

Our forward entries are better when it's a chaos ball bouncing every which way, no joke. Doesn't allow the intercept marks and talls to out mark us and relies on our Small forwards and pressure.

This ^

Even though Watts presented on decent leads last night, he couldn't hold on to them - Weids was the same. Although I do feel that without Hogan, we're less inclined to put it to the top of the goal square and more prepared to lower our eyes and look for leading forwards.

 

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

Do we or don't we Hogan? Answer: we Hogan. He is a CHF, not a full forward. Parked in the goal square, he can't use his best attributes. Roaming around the ground, he knows how to find the ball, has quick hands and a quick mind. In the goal square he is forced to take pack marks against the 2 best oppo defenders. It's almost a set play for the defence.

We can't rely on our mids/small forwards kicking a winning score each week and have more strings to our bow with Hogan in.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

I hate these posts.

Me too. But because they're silly, or because they're true?

[Jaded No More 68,915]

We are a better balanced team with Hogan. No doubt. 

What we need to do is learn to play less dumb predictable footy when he's playing. We lower our eyes and hit targets inside 50 better when he is not playing. 

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

3 hours ago, juzzk1d said:

Our forward entries are better when it's a chaos ball bouncing every which way, no joke. Doesn't allow the intercept marks and talls to out mark us and relies on our Small forwards and pressure.

You want to design a forward line around the chaos ball? Really? Hogan plays against every team's best every week, plus one for support coming over the top to spoil. In that situation his job is to remove both from play, which often he does by pancaking them, bringing the smaller players into play. If you want chaos ball, then you're welcome to it, but give me a player who can control getting the ball to ground every day of the week.

54 minutes ago, wellplayed31 said:

Neita spent a lot of time down back before becoming a gun forward.

Not saying I agree he needs to go to defense, but boy even in the way he moves sometimes he reminds me of the big man.

41 minutes ago, Deemented Are Go! said:

Coincidence.

Bingo. We have a tiny sample size. Online people are always jumping at shadows. There isn't a problem here, other than in future seasons if he wanted out of the club. This thread will be amusing in a few years.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

2 minutes ago, Jaded said:

We are a better balanced team with Hogan. No doubt. 

What we need to do is learn to play less dumb predictable footy when he's playing. We lower our eyes and hit targets inside 50 better when he is not playing. 

Yup. Notice that when it's Salem or Jordie kicking it to him, somehow he's a good player on the lead.

Thing with Jesse is he's shown he can mark the dump kick when he's 50-50 with his opponent. When you do that enough, your entire group of team mates will divert to that kind of thinking, dump it long and trust in Jesse. His issue is his team mates don't deliver it well enough. It's simple. From the first quarter of JLT1, we were absolutely hammering the dogs, but couldn't get the ball to a player inside fifty. It's been that way all year so far. I almost understand the sooking he does sometimes. We're lethal by hand and when clearing from defense, then we just set hospitals on his head all day.

[Demonsone 2,037]

Good teams learn how to win without their key players.....eg Hawks won  flags without Buddy etc

 

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

43 minutes ago, Ted Fidge said:

Do we or don't we Hogan? Answer: we Hogan. He is a CHF, not a full forward. Parked in the goal square, he can't use his best attributes. Roaming around the ground, he knows how to find the ball, has quick hands and a quick mind. In the goal square he is forced to take pack marks against the 2 best oppo defenders. It's almost a set play for the defence.

We can't rely on our mids/small forwards kicking a winning score each week and have more strings to our bow with Hogan in.

CHF all the way Ted. Problem solved.....as long as he brings the effort.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

Less predictable without Hogan. There are too many times we kick to him when he is not the best option.

[Vineytime 847]

3 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

How? contracted till 2019.

All this trade talk and 'no Hogan effect' is just plain silly.

Hogan straightens us up and i have no doubt if he was playing last night he would have kicked 4. We have seen when Hogan is up and about what he is capable of, example 7 goals against the Saints.

Hogan is a key ingredient to our forward line.

So you can't have an opinion on this site anymore??? My comments get deleted for what reason???

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

7 hours ago, Lampers said:

I find it hard to ignore that the three "signature" wins in the last three seasons have all come without Hogan. 2015 in Geelong, Hawthorn last year and now Adelaide.

What does this mean?

He has proved he can be effective forward, floating into the backline, leading up the wings and also centre clearances and genuine onball.

Hogan is clearly an outstanding player and a potential game winner, but what is his best value to the team? 

A genuine utility, which he has done in some games this year, who plays wherever he is needed based on game situation?

Permanent back man to shore up the part of the ground where when under pressure marking targets and a cool head for disposal can be lacking?

My feel is default position should be the backline but not as a one on one defender, with his role tactical based on how the game is unfolding as he is the most versatile single player Goodwin has at his disposal. When things are going poorly, having him stranded deep forward seems a waste.

 

Good post Lampers.

Our forwardline looks like a dogs breakfast at times but we are consistently kicking 100 points or close to it, without any huge input from Jesse. I have no doubt he will go on to become one of the great forwards of the modern era, but right now I reckon we play him off the wing. He gets double teamed or worse at times and I don't think we have the support for him down there just yet to deal with it, thus we see the poor body language at times and dummy spits.

Jesse has shown he goes quite OK up the ground in bursts when he moves upfield. I can see him do a Richo/Riewoldt and run rings around his opponent and set up countless I50s. Swing him forward to change a game when required, ala TMac last night.

[Little Goffy 14,546]

The question really is, with the ferocious and fast play we turned up with, would Hogan have kicked 6 and we win by even more?

But seriously, Hogan is quite a smart and hardworking forward who makes an effort to offer connections up the ground, as well as being pretty effective as a target close to goal. Football is an odd thing - you could argue that if only Gawn, and not Spencer, had been injured we would have missed out on Pederson's amazing return playing his awkward role so well and proving so important. Instead we'd have an ok ruckman doing ok. I think it is similar with Hogan being out - we've been forced to try alternative methods, and discovered that we can make them work.

Over a 22 (25? 26?) game season though, I can't imagine 'Team with no Hogan' would be able to keep pace with 'Team with Hogan'.

 

[Demons11 7,014]

Hogan is going to be out for a while I'm hearing. 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Hogan calls for the ball to be kicked on his head, that is the crux of the issue.

When he is leading at the ball he is much better.

[Vineytime 847]

1 hour ago, Demons11 said:

Hogan is going to be out for a while I'm hearing. 

So what are you hearing?

[Wiseblood 24,637]

No doubt we are able to play well without him, but all it tells me is that we have a seriously good side on our hands and when both our midfield and Hogan learn to work as one then we'll have a seriously good side on our hands with a key forward who can tear teams apart.

As others have said we do tend to rely on him a little and Jesse can get sucked into wanting the ball kicked on his head so he can run from behind and take the mark.  It obviously doesn't always work, and when he learns to lead instead of wanting the long ball in some situations then we'll be much better for it.

I also believe that once Weideman hopefully gains a little more muscle and a bigger tank then he can take some of the pressure from Jesse.

[Young Blood 2,620]

Is it possible that Hogan has been instructed not to lead up us much when we're kicking into our forward 50?

I agree that we tend to focus on kicking to Jess a bit too much, but I do like the option of having Watts and another mid size forward lead out to give Jess a one on one deep OR have all the small forwards stay deep to crumb Hogan's contest while leaving the top of the 50m area open for forwards to run into as a marking option which we have seen much of this season.

Guess what i'm saying is that Hogan might be instructed more often then not to stay deep and be a consistent marking contest which creates other options in doing so.

Edited May 14, 2017 by mongrel

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,735]

I have been thinking about this point, and have concluded that the reason is due to the unpredictable nature of Hogan not playing.

Listening to Dangerfield speak on Game Day this morning, he mentioned that it would be hard to plan for Tom McDonald playing in the forward line. This would then lead to your structures being messed up. It seems with the amount of planning that goes into game day, the changes a coach makes can really disturb the other teams plans, we saw this with Hunt last week going forward. This seems to be a big tick in Goodwin's coaching career so far, he is willing to swing changes when required.

Now this works well when it is not expected, due to the fact that it is impossible to plan for. However, if we did not have Hogan and continued to play McDonald forward, other sides would watch tapes of him and work out how to beat him, resulting in poor results.

Therefore, we are a better side with Hogan in as he is a gun. However, when he isn't in it offers a chance to change things up and catch the opposition off guard. 

 

[Dockett 32 1,239]

.

When Hoges is really going , he is an offensive beast who is extremely difficult to stop.

Cant wait to see him back. 

[old dee 23,791]

Does anyone know way he did not play yesterday. The reports I read said he rang in sick.

Nothing more from any source which starts my mind suspecting the "sick" was not physical.

anyone know?

[mo64 5,874]

5 minutes ago, old dee said:

Does anyone know way he did not play yesterday. The reports I read said he rang in sick.

Nothing more from any source which starts my mind suspecting the "sick" was not physical.

anyone know?

He missed training as well, so I assumed it was an ailment.

 

[Earl Hood 6,086]

2 hours ago, Is Dom Is Good said:

I have been thinking about this point, and have concluded that the reason is due to the unpredictable nature of Hogan not playing.

Listening to Dangerfield speak on Game Day this morning, he mentioned that it would be hard to plan for Tom McDonald playing in the forward line. This would then lead to your structures being messed up. It seems with the amount of planning that goes into game day, the changes a coach makes can really disturb the other teams plans, we saw this with Hunt last week going forward. This seems to be a big tick in Goodwin's coaching career so far, he is willing to swing changes when required.

Now this works well when it is not expected, due to the fact that it is impossible to plan for. However, if we did not have Hogan and continued to play McDonald forward, other sides would watch tapes of him and work out how to beat him, resulting in poor results.

Therefore, we are a better side with Hogan in as he is a gun. However, when he isn't in it offers a chance to change things up and catch the opposition off guard. 

 

It is even better if Hogan is playing and we are looking at swinging him back occasionally and T Mac forward. I proposed this swingman set up in an earlier post and I too heard Dangermouse's comments about the unpredictability. They make some sense. Hogan and TMac play forward differently so that will upset most back lines and they would play back line differently which could be positive for us. 

[DeeSpencer 25,712]

This theory skips over the number of good games we've played when he's played to focus on the Geelong win in 2015 and the Hawks win last year. 

Geelong win: Dawes did a really good job competing at CHF and Gawn + Spencer combined to mark and kick a few goals between them deep (as well as Gawn's break out in the ruck).

Hawthorn win: Pedersen played maybe his best game as a lead up CHF. Weeds kicked 2 as a deep target

Adelaide win: Tom McDonald provided a contest as a make shift CHF in the 2nd half. Garlett was dangerous deep.

Really I think it's more about other forwards stepping up and in to Hogan's role than Hogan going out making the side better. He could've played as Tom McDonald did at CHF on the weekend. 

In my mind Hogan is a very good mobile CHF who seems to dominate moving around inside 50 at Etihad when the ball is coming in quick but becomes pretty ordinary when stationed deep at the G or other big grounds with room to move. When he gets sent to FF to provide a contest or to be the go to guy the team suffers (and he does individually). It's just not his game. 

Had he played v Geel, v Hawks or v Adel and done the CHF job I think we would've played even better. Had he be reassigned to be the hero inside 50 we would've struggled. 

There are other concerns about his defensive efforts and sulking but most of those come from when he's stuck deep as the go to guy and isn't getting the delivery.