JUDGEMENT DAY - THE "BOMBER" 34

[bing181 8,908]

10 hours ago, Baghdad Bob said:

This may have been addressed before but can someone explain to me why the 2 year penalty was backdated to the date the AFL let them off?  The banned players played during that period which makes no sense to me. 

In reality it's a 23 week ban. 

Back dated to take into account delays not the fault of players. For this last season where they competed, in individual sports, all results would be cancelled, and prize money forfeited.

Ban is closer to 10 months, Jan to Nov, not sure where 23 weeks comes from. Also, they've already served 4 ½ months provisional. 

[Whispering_Jack 29,178]

 

Jobe said they may appeal. When does this stop. I mean if they appeal then do wada have the right to appeal again if for some miracle essendon get off? Kochie was right in what he said. They and the other clubs wanted essendon to deal with it quickly. If they did this would all be over and so would there punishments. 

Who would pay for this appeal. Surely essendon have spent enough money on this, 

There is only one avenue of appeal and that would be to go to the Swiss Federal Tribunal (and good luck with that one because the CAS decision clearly sets out the reasons for arriving at their conclusion of fact based on the appropriate standard of proof). I find it extremely unlikely that the SFT would consider an appeal let alone overturn yesterday's decision.

I don't believe there is a possibility of a hearing in a court of jurisdiction in Australia because, as I understand it, contractually (with WADA and through it, ASADA), the AFL, the clubs and the players have yielded up any rights under sovereign law to the appeal process through CAS. The players are unlikely to receive a stay if there was an appeal to the SFT so by the time they got heard, their time would be done and dusted. 

ABC on CAS judgement.

[beelzebub 23,197]

4 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Well said Kochie. I hope the MFC do the same

In reality Essendon hoodwinked no one. Any club dealing with them ought to have their little grey cells counted. 

Anyone with a modicom of understanding knew what was to happen. I don't see blaming Essendon as valid at all. We amongst others were either gullible or plainly stupid.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,208]

12 hours ago, Cards13 said:

Apparently... Lloydy said last night he is amazed not 1 player informed Reid.

 

the other part of it that astounds me is the duty of care aspect from Reid. Writing a letter is enough... If I somehow (no one told me but I somehow got wind of it) knew of something illegal going on in my organisation (which then turned into a protracted and costly legal case against said company) and just wrote a letter, I'd be turfed for negligence.

 

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,208]

8 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

In reality Essendon hoodwinked no one. Any club dealing with them ought to have their little grey cells counted. 

Anyone with a modicom of understanding knew what was to happen. I don't see blaming Essendon as valid at all. We amongst others were either gullible or plainly stupid.

I think there is a case for Monfries but that's where it ends.

[beelzebub 23,197]

2 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

I think there is a case for Monfries but that's where it ends.

Even here I suggest other clubs were in some sort of lalaland. The writing was most definitely on the wall for anyone to read. 

[Captain Todd 171]

16 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

I think there is a case for Monfries but that's where it ends.

Kochie said they were hoodwinked over Monfries as they didn't know at that stage they were about to be embroiled in something so nefarious.

They went in eyes wide with Ryder, he acknowledged that

 

[beelzebub 23,197]

PA f'd up...Wear it Kochie

[Spirit of '87 323]

21 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

In reality Essendon hoodwinked no one. Any club dealing with them ought to have their little grey cells counted. 

Anyone with a modicom of understanding knew what was to happen. I don't see blaming Essendon as valid at all. We amongst others were either gullible or plainly stupid.

Koch only suggested that his club was "hoodwinked" in relation to Monfries, who was recruited at the end of 2012, before the shi-ts torm started. 

"Angus Monfries was recruited before all of this happened" Koch said. "So we have a view that we were hoodwinked by this and we didn't know the system that was in place at Essendon".

In relation to the others who were recruited subsequently, including Melksham, I agree that there can't be a suggestion that the clubs including MFC were hoodwinked. MFC, St Kilda etc. were just, as you said, gullible and stupid enough to still go ahead and trade with EFC and recruit them.

 

 

[beelzebub 23,197]

Obviously Monfries wasn't fully forthcoming with anything that happened.

[DemonOX 8,692]

So glad that this shitzs is not happening to our club. ( apart from Melk).

 

Makes a a nice change!!

Edited January 13, 2016 by DemonOX

[Willmoy1947 3,957]

25 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Obviously Monfries wasn't fully forthcoming with anything that happened.

You would imagine his contract would tell the story..Kochy is a tossy

[Sir Why You Little 36,607]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

In reality Essendon hoodwinked no one. Any club dealing with them ought to have their little grey cells counted. 

Anyone with a modicom of understanding knew what was to happen. I don't see blaming Essendon as valid at all. We amongst others were either gullible or plainly stupid.

It was Essendon's Drug Den...They can pay his wage whilst he is unable to step into our club..

[Dees2014 2,377]

2 hours ago, Wilbur said:

Let  them try and appeal.  They  are  finished  and  rightly  so 

It just shows how little they understand the process. They can only appeal on process grounds ie WADA/CAS have not followed their own rules, or it is outside their jurisdiction. 

They must think CAS/WADA are complete idiots. 

The best of luck!

[Cards13 9,117]

3 hours ago, Redleg said:

So that is now Lloyd and Hird disagreeing with Reid on this point. 

One of Hird and Reid is either telling porkies or is badly mistaken. 

But only one of them was believed by WADA.

[Deestar9 1,548]

Pretty sure bans are from March 2015 to March 2017.  The reason most can come back in November is because you can resume training when you have less than a quarter of your ban left to serve. Also I am quite confident that Melb def would have factored in the likely suspension of Melksham (although I am sure not the length )& that would have probably been reflected in the way his four year contract was structured.  Not one of you would know exactly the terms of his contract & employment.  Roos did not seem surprised at all & was at pains to point out that he is a long term player.  I think it is appalling the bagging & ridiculing of a player who is yet to pull on a jumper for the MFC.   Until any of you have walked in the shoes of an Ess player....you cannot say how that would affect you (guilty or not) . I firmly believe that everyone deserves a second chance & will therefore reserve judgement until I see how he performs in a MFC jumper.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,208]

30 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

Obviously Monfries wasn't fully forthcoming with anything that happened.

BB I'm happy they got done as I think they deserved to. I don't have any sympathy for them and I hope Jobe looses his Brownlow. I understand and agree that Monfries could have chosen to say something during his medical/interview with Port but chose to say nothing, just as no one tells their employer if they use recreational drugs. I just think their legal team will work that angle. Having said that if I was the defense I would simply argue "would it have changed your decision as you went on to pick up Ryder anyway".

[monoccular 17,314]

13 hours ago, Deecisive said:

I find it difficult to believe that a Team doctor would not show more interest in what is going on, he obviously had some concerns, what was the basis for those concerns. So he writes one letter and figures I don't need to do anything more? 

How can he be an effective team doctor without knowing what the players are injecting so he can consider the impact that these drugs could have on any treatment he prescribes. 

I also find it utterly incompressible that no-one other than Danks knows what they really took, or has records, receipts, etc.. and that if they took nothing illegal then why has Danks not come out with the records to prove it. I would assume that as his employer at the time and as the matter is about health and safety that Essendon could have tried to legally compel him to provide that information. but they did not and again I wonder why?

 

Once he wrote "the letter", so mysteriously lost by the way like the drug administration records, and it was not responded to his satisfaction, he had a moral obligation to resign his position.   He chose instead to stay.   He therefore failed his duty of care to the his patients, the players.   Yet AHPRA do not appear to have shown any interest at all   Saying he was sidelined yet sticking around was both gutless and unethical, IMVHO  

10 hours ago, Chris said:

Fairly sure the form they signed stated that the substances were legal and that was why they signed it. To me that would give them a legal avenue to sue the club for negligence and deceit. 

 

Certainly on face value it would seem very clear that whoever drew up the consent forms - and has that person been named by the way? - totally mislead the players involved.    

Have these forms ever been sighted (or even cited) publicly?

I suspect that had they answered truthfully at the times they were asked by ASADA that yes, they had been given supplements and that the club had given them written assurances of their legitimacy, then this whole sorry saga would have been resolved, one way or the other, long ago.  ASADA, WADA and CAS had it got that far may well have treated them far more leniently had they not lied regarding their supplement usage.

7 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

But the Holmes-Hird interview will be conducted in the Ethics Centre, so I'm sure it will be fair-minded and unbiased.

 

What a joke that Golden Boy is even allowed to darken the portals of an institution carrying such a lofty title. Must be self named.  

PS http://www.ethics.org.au/about/what-we-re-about

What a beautiful irony the The Ethics Centre was formerly know as St.James Ethics Centre.  

They must have felt compelled to remove the eponym due to the oxymoronic contradiction. :-)

Edited January 13, 2016 by monoccular
PS

[Captain Todd 171]

3 minutes ago, monoccular said:

 

Once he wrote "the letter", so mysteriously lost by the way like the drug administration records, and it was not responded to his satisfaction, he had a moral obligation to resign his position.   He chose instead to stay.   He therefore failed his duty of care to the his patients, the players.   Yet AHPRA do not appear to have shown any interest at all   Saying he was sidelined yet sticking around was both gutless and unethical, IMVHO  

 

Certainly on face value it would seem very clear that whoever drew up the consent forms - and has that person been named by the way? - totally mislead the players involved.    

Have these forms ever been sighted (or even cited) publicly?

I suspect that had they answered truthfully at the times they were asked by ASADA that yes, they had been given supplements and that the club had given them written assurances of their legitimacy, then this whole sorry saga would have been resolved, one way or the other, long ago.  ASADA, WADA and CAS had it got that far may well have treated them far more leniently had they not lied regarding their supplement usage.

 

What a joke that Golden Boy is even allowed to darken the portals of an institution carrying such a lofty title. Must be self named.  

And Golden Boy still has his hologram in the National Sports Museum at the MCG. I was so shocked I didn't go in and had a chat to the lovely gentleman from the MCC who agreed that it should be removed.

http://www.nsm.org.au/Exhibitions/James%20Hird%20Hologram.aspx

I'm sure the "most difficult parts of his career" needs to be updated.

 

[monoccular 17,314]

52 minutes ago, Spirit of '87 said:

Koch only suggested that his club was "hoodwinked" in relation to Monfries, who was recruited at the end of 2012, before the shi-ts torm started. 

"Angus Monfries was recruited before all of this happened" Koch said. "So we have a view that we were hoodwinked by this and we didn't know the system that was in place at Essendon".

In relation to the others who were recruited subsequently, including Melksham, I agree that there can't be a suggestion that the clubs including MFC were hoodwinked. MFC, St Kilda etc. were just, as you said, gullible and stupid enough to still go ahead and trade with EFC and recruit them.

 

 

Re Angus and Port - I guess that all clubs will now have to increase their due diligence regarding every new recruit be it from another club or even from junior levels, and ask specifically regarding prior supplement usage, and perhaps somehow have written into the standard contract some "divorce clause" in the case of their being subsequently exposed as being a user.

Re the others - perhaps the clubs involved did take the risk into account in their decision making regarding these transferrees.  

[Macca 16,604]

Here are the 12 players that were not issued with infraction notices who were on Essendon's list going into the 2012 season.

Currently listed

Mark Baguley

Courtenay Dempsey

Jackson Merrett

David Zaharakis

Delisted

Anthony Long, Lauchlan Dalgleish, Jason Winderlich, Elliott Kavanagh,

Nick O'Brien, Michael Ross, Kyle Reimers

Hal Hunter

 

So there's 12 players who did not receive infraction notices - why not?

What did they all not do to escape trouble? ... did they all say no? Were they all frightened of needles like Zaharakis 'supposedly' was?

And why hasn't our media interviewed them? Surely there is a story there ... a big story in my opinion. It's as if they've all been collectively hidden away so as they don't say anything.

We know that Hunter is taking court action but what of the other 10? (apart from Zaharakis) ... as is highlighted above, 4 of them are still active players at the EFC ... do the 34 who were busted wonder why those 4 (plus the other delisted 8 players) were somehow passed over by ASADA/WADA?

There's probably a number of other questions surrounding the (non) dirty dozen.

Essendon's 2012 list

The 34 who were charged (and busted)

 

Edited January 13, 2016 by Macca

[In Harmes Way 7,700]

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

Obviously Monfries wasn't fully forthcoming with anything that happened.

Normally a medical is part of the process of changing footy clubs - if Monfries had elevated levels of TB-4 in his blood, surprising it didn't show up.

[junk 342]

Prior to the recent WADA decision the Essendon players traded to other clubs were deemed innocent.Essendon at that stage did not hoodwink anyone. However the players and club were responsible for cheating and in that case other clubs who obtained players should be compensated.Essendon should not be given No.1 draft picks for coming last,you don't  rewards cheats. Essendon players who choose to sue their club may end up loosing and that will come at a cost.

[monoccular 17,314]

3 minutes ago, ENYAW said:

Prior to the recent WADA decision the Essendon players traded to other clubs were deemed innocent.Essendon at that stage did not hoodwink anyone. However the players and club were responsible for cheating and in that case other clubs who obtained players should be compensated.Essendon should not be given No.1 draft picks for coming last,you don't  rewards cheats. Essendon players who choose to sue their club may end up loosing and that will come at a cost.

1.  Essendon at that stage hoodwinked the whole football community

2. One shouldn't reward cheats, but this is exactly what the AFL are going to do.  Top up players.  Draft picks based on 2016 outcome.  Salary cap changes and some even suggest assistance.  Prime time scheduling, including ANZAC DAY.  If that isn't rewarding cheating don't know what is. 

[rjay 24,579]

19 minutes ago, Macca said:

Here are the 12 players that were not issued with infraction notices who were on Essendon's list going into the 2012 season.

Currently listed

Mark Baguley

Courtenay Dempsey

Jackson Merrett

David Zaharakis

Delisted

Anthony Long, Lauchlan Dalgleish, Jason Winderlich, Elliott Kavanagh,

Nick O'Brien, Michael Ross, Kyle Reimers

Hal Hunter

 

So there's 12 players who did not receive infraction notices - why not?

What did they all not do to escape trouble? ... did they all say no? Were they all frightened of needles like Zaharakis 'supposedly' was?

And why hasn't our media interviewed them? Surely there is a story there ... a big story in my opinion. It's as if they've all been collectively hidden away so as they don't say anything.

We know that Hunter is taking court action but what of the other 10? (apart from Zaharakis) ... as is highlighted above, 4 of them are still active players at the EFC ... do the 34 who were busted wonder why those 4 (plus the other delisted 8 players) were somehow passed over by ASADA/WADA?

There's probably a number of other questions surrounding the (non) dirty dozen.

Essendon's 2012 list

The 34 who were charged (and busted)

 

I like your use of 'supposedly'... 'Macca'

edit: I also agree there is a story not yet being told here.

Edited January 13, 2016 by rjay