Hype about the Saints - is it justified?

[praha 11,240]

The Saints could be like the Dogs, though. No one saw where they came from.

But I think we have a far better crop of youngsters.

[Adam The God 30,261]

Terry Wallace did a comparison on the TAC show a month ago on who's list he'd rather have and he chose Melbourne over the Saints. Everything he mentioned hit the nail on the head and was absolutely spot on.

That's unusual.

[Adam The God 30,261]

I am with you, WJ. But it must be said that Crawf, whilst seemingly a good bloke, is hardly my idea of an original thinker, and I don't really think his opinion carries much weight.

Let's be honest here. He's an idiot with a peanut for a brain.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,396]

The Saints had some blowouts like us but they were competitive for longer in more games.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,241]

Crawf is just another media [censored].

EDIT to ss.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Bitter but optimistic

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

It is purely and simply an expectations thing.

St Kilda were expected to be on the bottom of the ladder, thus by winning 5 games and being competitive in a few others, they have exceeded expectations. That said, it is pretty important to have a few established players around the club and Riedwolt, Steven, Armitage and Montagna played vital roles in most(all) of their wins.

Edited September 7, 2015 by Mad_Melbourne

[praha 11,240]

It is purely and simply an expectations thing.

St Kilda were expected to be on the bottom of the ladder, thus by winning 5 games and being competitive in a few others, they have exceeded expectations. That said, it is pretty important to have a few established players around the club and Riedwolt, Steven, Armitage and Montagna played vital roles in most(all) of their wins.

We were also picked by many to finish last or 17th.

I'd argue we exceeded expectations as well. It's just the whole "bad for a decade" narrative that turns people off praising Melbourne. I think people have higher expectations of Melbourne but simply don't trust them, so play it safe and say they'll be down the bottom again.

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

We were also picked by many to finish last or 17th.

I'd argue we exceeded expectations as well. It's just the whole "bad for a decade" narrative that turns people off praising Melbourne. I think people have higher expectations of Melbourne but simply don't trust them, so play it safe and say they'll be down the bottom again.

Yeh i agree, we are also an easy team to lay the boot into so people get around it. If the supporters are disappointed with the results then the media will run rampant. Because of the variation between our performances peoples expectations change, similar to Collingwood in that they won 7-1 and then ended up not making finals, but internally they did not expect to make finals.

But 7 wins and most against half decent opposition, does put us in a position for a 11-13 win season next year, which is what I would be hoping for.

[Jaded No More 68,951]

They don't have Hogan

/End thread

[Webber 10,468]

We were also picked by many to finish last or 17th.

I'd argue we exceeded expectations as well. It's just the whole "bad for a decade" narrative that turns people off praising Melbourne. I think people have higher expectations of Melbourne but simply don't trust them, so play it safe and say they'll be down the bottom again.

Nailed it praha, it's a default expectation, and a default commentary. It's also reflected in the level of ignorance as to our players, such as Howe constantly referenced as a forward, Jesse Hogan no good when the ball hits the ground (Leigh Matthews), first year players referred to as 50 + gamers. We just don't crack much of a thought other than to the astute observer. It's annoying, but it's going to change. It'll take knocking off a top 4 side once or twice to do it, but we probably should be happy to fly under the radar for a while longer.

[spalding 1,128]

totally agree.

Interestingly Dermott Brereton on SEN had a caveat on the Saints that while he ranked their season better than Melbourne's (which seemed more based on the fact that we are paying our coach a truckload more money so we should have performed better), he was not sure that the up and coming players will be any better than the old players that they will be replacing.

At least we know the Demons wont have the same problem as with the exception of Jones and Vince our best players are already all 23 or younger.

I don't get all the love for Collingwood either. It seems to be common media view that they will be a powerhouse in the next couple of years. I don't see it, as I'm yet to see who on their list is going to replace and be significantly better than Swann, Pendlebury and Cloke.

[Radar Detector 1,347]

Look, we've fallen into this trap before and overestimated our youthful talent compared to others. In actual fact, the leadership provided by the older players is crucial in helping the young guys maximise their talent. The Bulldogs are a prime example. Our leadership, in contrast to the Bulldogs and St Kilda has been a perennial weakness. Carlton are now in the same boat as us a result of Judd's retirement and may find it difficult to rebound quickly.

I don't disagree that on paper our young list looks healthier than St Kilda's, but I would caution that progress is rarely linear and improvement won't just automatically happen for this group, just like it didn't go to plan for the last group. I think we are fortunate to have a couple of young culture changers in Viney and Brayshaw who can hopefully break the mould, although the same could have been said about Scully and Trengove after their first season.

As with all, time will tell.

[rjay 24,935]

totally agree.

Interestingly Dermott Brereton on SEN had a caveat on the Saints that while he ranked their season better than Melbourne's (which seemed more based on the fact that we are paying our coach a truckload more money so we should have performed better), he was not sure that the up and coming players will be any better than the old players that they will be replacing.

At least we know the Demons wont have the same problem as with the exception of Jones and Vince our best players are already all 23 or younger.

I don't get all the love for Collingwood either. It seems to be common media view that they will be a powerhouse in the next couple of years. I don't see it, as I'm yet to see who on their list is going to replace and be significantly better than Swann, Pendlebury and Cloke.

Adams, Treloar, Moore...yet to be seen if they will be the equal let alone better but their list looks fairly healthy.

You also can't underestimate the benefits of having Pendles leading the way.

[Nasher 33,616]

We were also picked by many to finish last or 17th.

I'd argue we exceeded expectations as well. It's just the whole "bad for a decade" narrative that turns people off praising Melbourne. I think people have higher expectations of Melbourne but simply don't trust them, so play it safe and say they'll be down the bottom again.

Exactly. We even hear this kind of speak amongst Melbourne supporters - "we've been rebuilding for 10 years!!!!!" - no, we've been rebuilding for two years. We had a rebuild under Bailey, a de-build under Neeld, and a new rebuild under Roos. To the casual observer it just looks like 8 years of train-wreck though.

[beelzebub 23,378]

I'll actually be quite disappointed if next season we dont put a bit of daylight between us and the Aints

Dad's Army v NKOTB

Weve pretty well seen what they can and cant do. Weve still got Petracca in the wings...to say nothing of regaining Frost and Kent

Find a little icing from somewhere and we should be able to get rid of that niggling slow start and fades

StKilda's well isnt as deep...much pain yet still to come for them

[rpfc 28,477]

And the Media don't know the list - Roos will see his 30th new face this summer (and possibly more than that).

Added to the Saints more consistent mindset and the subterranean expectations of the Saints "first team to not win a game" blah, blah, blah.

[rjay 24,935]

And the Media don't know the list - Roos will see his 30th new face this summer (and possibly more than that).

Added to the Saints more consistent mindset and the subterranean expectations of the Saints "first team to not win a game" blah, blah, blah.

Certainly set the expectations low 'rpfc'.

[Ricky P 757]

We had a much better season than St Kilda. I'd take beating good sides with the annoying lases against poor sides, than beating all the poor teams, any day of the week.

Plus, they still have the likes of Riewoldt and Montagna playing key roles for them.

Plus we finished higher than them - that should settle the argument really.

The reason we cop more criticism is because we've been down for much longer. But it's hardly Jesse Hogan and Gus Brayshaw's fault that we were poor in 2007.

[dazzledavey36 54,949]

They overlooked Petracca.

Enough said.

[ChaserJ 5,096]

The presence of experienced players has helped Saints remain relatively competitive whilst rebuilding and introducing youth. I’m sure we would have loved to have the same type of leadership to guide our youngsters through the toughest times. If we did, we may not have needed to rebuild the rebuild. I’ve been impressed with how the Saints have gone about it, but do believe we have the better crop of youngsters (the caveat is if they develop the way we think they should).

What impressed me most about St Kilda in the games I’ve seen them play is less the talent they’ve accumulated (and they have drafted well in the last 3 years, and I admire their single minded execution of their list building plan) than the very clear game plan that all players have bought into. Even when they have lost games, they have still attempted to execute their game plan across the ground. Talent and experience got them more often than deviation from game plan or lack of effort.

I don’t view this as a ‘Saints or Demons’ either or conversation, I can see both teams rising, although I still expect a slight dip from St Kilda when Riewoldt and Montagna go. As mentioned by an earlier, we don’t have any retirements on the horizon that will greatly reduce our on-field performance. Also think that whenever a team exceeds expectations, they are looked on in a more favourable light in the media. No question the Saints performed better than expected, and I think we more or less (just) met expectations.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,800]

We still have to win 2 in a row

But the Saints remind me of MFC circa 2010....

I'm looking forward to Melbourne reminding me of St Kilda circa 2010...

[beelzebub 23,378]

Well put CJ

My view is we simply have more upside and hopefully next season start garnering the consistency that the Aints already have. My view also goes to our list having more potential. Our raw stock ought to be coming online at least a year, maybe 2 before StKildas replacements do.

[Pates 9,660]

Their reliance on Reiwoldt and Montagna is a massive issue for them, they are banking on McCartin coming good as quickly as Hogan has but thus far the evidence says he will take longer.

Saints are on the way up, I reckon we'll follow similar paths but will be interesting to see in 2 years time who's ahead.

[Axis of Bob 11,836]

I look at St Kilda versus their contemporaries and see a huge hole.

Midfield.

The Dogs have genuine up and coming centre square midfielders, and quite a depth of them, that are hard to get. The Saints have Steven (26 next year) and Armitage (28) who won't get better, but the best contested ball winner otherwise is Luke Dunstan, who is an undersized plodder. I like Newnes and Billings, but they are more flankers. The Bulldogs have a list as long as your arm: Bontempelli, Macrae, Wallis, Dalhaus, Liberatore.

That's also where I see us and St Kilda. St Kilda have picked up McCartin and Goddard, which is good for them. But, once they develop, that gets them level with us. But the next hard part is to get midfielders who win the footy. Montagna, Steven and Armitage won't get better, and the cupboard is bare after that. On the other hand, we have Jones and Vince, who won't get better, but then we have Viney, Tyson, Brayshaw and Petracca behind them will all get a lot better and have high levels of talent.

St Kilda performed as well as they could this year, given uninterrupted years from their best, most experienced players. Their midfield was as good as it could have been, which kept them consistent enough to beat teams at, or below, them on the ladder. But they won't really go forward until they can better footballers to run through the middle for them and, given the number and quality they need, I don't know where they are going to get them.

We are better placed than them, but we all know how some players can pop out of nowhere when you least expect it.

[ickey_11 145]

It is not the Saints and Dogs I am worried about, it is the WCEs, Suns and GWS. They all have a big depth of young talent and I sense that playing finals is a best as I can hope for in the next 5 years.