Lay off Jack Watts...

[jnrmac 20,292]

I once read on a forum (could have been here, could have been Demonology), that Matthew Bate was the worst player ever to reach 100 games for the Dees. Now that Jack has reached that milestone a statistical comparison makes interesting reading.

Jack's 100 games have yielded: kicks- 871, handballs- 695, total disposals-1566, marks- 513, goals- 77, tackles-192, Brownlow votes- 7.

Bate played 102 games for: kicks- 900, handballs- 698, total disposals- 1598, marks-555, goals- 98, tackles- 283, Brownlow votes- 7.

Just sayin'.

Wow, interesting stat. Nice perspective.

Thanks Matt B

(no-one else would bother sourcing that comparison!)

Edited May 3, 2015 by jnrmac

[rpfc 28,960]

Wow, interesting stat. Nice perspective.

Thanks Matt B

(no-one else would bother sourcing that comparison!)

No, it doesn't readily come to mind but now that I am thinking about it they would have had eerily similar careers. Both played a majority of footy across HF, both played some very good games without the consistency required to be a very good player, both struggled with a major flaw in their footy makeup (Watts - hardness and intensity, Bate - decision making and speed)...

I used to always compare Dunn and Bate because they were drafted two picks apart and developed so slowly. When Bate was delisted, Dunn had a year left on his contract and I thought at the time that Bate had shown more than Dunn at the time and the Dunn was very lucky to have that year...

[What 18,810]

No, it doesn't readily come to mind but now that I am thinking about it they would have had eerily similar careers. Both played a majority of footy across HF, both played some very good games without the consistency required to be a very good player, both struggled with a major flaw in their footy makeup (Watts - hardness and intensity, Bate - decision making and speed)...

I used to always compare Dunn and Bate because they were drafted two picks apart and developed so slowly. When Bate was delisted, Dunn had a year left on his contract and I thought at the time that Bate had shown more than Dunn at the time and the Dunn was very lucky to have that year...

Bater was a much better player than Watts

[daisycutter 29,902]

lol

Yeah I accept - him and a few of his more important friends were horseradish...

Which one do you think concerns me more?

well it is a jack watts thread,rpfc, not a midfield thread

your deflections are looking like a strawman

[Sir Why You Little 37,337]

Just compare Jack Watts 100th game with the young kids playing at the Dogs

There is your answer.

[robbiefrom13 894]

I can only imagine if I was in his position and had my apparent 'softness' called into question publicly on many, many occasions, that I would be doing my darndest to go out there and play like a maniac

it's not just from his own supporters and the media, over the journey he MUST have had several coaches get into his ear about it

but he doesn't change

ps I usually back him in, time after time, but it's starting to wear very thin. It's just so frustrating watching talent get wasted

"MUST" have - but still gets picked. And, under that sort of pressure, you can only imagine you'd be doing your darndest... yet he doesn't. So, have the coaches been telling him what so many on Demonland think is so obvious? Until he gets dropped, I will still think we have to be seeing it differently to the coaches.

And actually, I thought he did reasonably, yesterday, and nowhere near as much a liability as Grimes for example, or as much a disappointment as Jones and Hogan, for example. We got smashed, and I reckon Watts was about half-way down our list. In a belting like that, his position surely was "the graveyard". No mistake about it in my thinking, we lost the game in the midfield, and all our forwards apart from Garlett failed to rise to the occasion. But next Thursday I'll look at the team with interest, to see how wrong I got it.

[Timothy Reddan-A'Blew 5,616]

Happened when i played at local level.

Sometimes you get a player in the team that does things to put team mates off,And eventually they stop supporting him and definitely stop using his leads.

Not sure if this is happening to JW though.

I'd be interested to get to the bottom of this - basically, whether it's happening or not.

We are told that, to be a successful team, everyone has to play their role. At the same time there is a view on here that JW will be important when we are being successful. But that creates a vicious cycle. Any player whose role it is to 'kick it to Jack' when circumstances require it, and isn't doing that, is not playing his role (and by extension JW isn't playing, or isn't being allowed to play, his). So, the mis/use of JW becomes a barrier to the success that JW would be valuable for.

And what about other players for whom this might (to a lesser extent, I agree) apply - don't kick it to Chris, he'll drop the mark / Jeremy, he'll miss the goal / Frank, he'll miss his target / Jordie, he'll only handball / Jay (and currently Dom), he'll get caught, etc?

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Who was it that tipped (a while ago) that he would retire early? I'm starting to see it now; sublimely skilled, but no ticker- was always that 1 important element away from greatness, but has now proven beyond a doubt that it isn't in him and can not be developed.

No club will trade for him, and we are probably at the point now that he can not hide anymore now that the whole team has developed a hardened edge.

My tip is he will be told when his contract is up that it will not be renewed. There is no point going through the indignity of being floated around for trade for nil interest, as all the cards have been put on the table, therefore an early retirement to focus on life outside football and save face for both parties. I can smell it.

[Adam The God 30,639]

Bater was a much better player than Watts

Bate was playing in a much better team. A team that played finals too. Not really an apt comparison.

[loges 6,767]

There have been many players who have carved out decent careers in poor sides. Can no longer put up with him playing his 4 good games a year and going missing in the rest. He's had 100 games. He won't make it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

Bate absolutely sucked

[daisycutter 29,902]

geez, it must be getting hard to #standbywatts

[WhyAlwaysMe 237]

opposition dont rate him generally demands little attention number 3 tall defender.

umpires dont rate him, has only polled in 3 of his games.

MFC dont rate him, only finishes outside top 10 in B & F after playing 22 games.

Can't play tall, can't mark, can't spoil, can't ruck.

Can't tackle, can't bump, can't get his own ball.

Can run, can kick, can make good decisions.

Its fair to say he's not causing any sleepless nights for opposition coaches & players.

But I'm sure he's had a few of his own coaches up late.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Jack Watts.

Easily the most scrutinised AFL player to ever play the game. Something that must be unexplainably hard to deal with on an individual level. I certainly can't imagine how hard it must be for him. For that, I feel incredibly sorry for the guy.

On a club level. I am still angry and resentful for the way in which we handled him. We clearly were a basket-case club back then with the wrong people in power on most lines at our club. We gifted him games, as we did for many young players over that period. We did not instil or develop any style of play into his game. He was not made to earn games by working on areas of his game that were and still are not up to AFL standard.

And this is the predicament we find ourselves in. If this was any other 100 game player, they would be playing in the VFL as we speak for the simple reason that the intensity, desire, physical approach and defensive efforts of the his game do not meet the requirements of what is acceptable for an AFL footballer. I am confident of that.

I am also confident in my opinion in that Paul Roos doesn't know what to do with him. He has a player who is supremely talented and skilful but clearly believes that developing weakness's of Watts' game would be best in the Melbourne side rather than the VFL side.

Why is this?

Is it because Roos believes that our team in general are light on for kicking skills and decision making skills and therefore Watts' stronger attributes outweigh his weak ones in this current Melbourne outfit? Is it because Roos believes dropping Watts to the VFL to work on some of these glaring weakness's would actually do more harm than good for this particular individual in these set of circumstances?

Is it a combination?

Whether posters like it or not, Watts will continue to be criticised for his inherent lack of intensity and desire to win the ball which sticks out like a sore thumb at AFL level.

Unfortunately it's something that in my eyes is almost unfixable now. All humans who play the game have different 'natural' levels of competitiveness and physicality in their makeup. That is something that is developed much much earlier on in the life of a human being and it's to do with the environment the individual is brought up in.

Let's compare Jack Viney's levels of competitiveness and physicality to that of Watts' before they made it to AFL lists.

They are worlds apart.

Jack Watts has never ever displayed naturally high levels of those two attributes and it was up to the club from day dot to make sure they could do everything in their power to develop those areas as best they could whilst nurturing the skills he does possess as well as the talent he clearly possesses. But the club failed miserably at that. Miserably. And now I fear he is too far into his career to be able to reprogram some of those traits.....

Unless of course the club did something outlandish by putting him into contact with a Shaman who were to administer Ayahuasca to young Jack who would then come to the epiphany that the inherent lack of competitiveness and physicality in his game is in fact a direct reflection of fear, which after coming to a cognitive understanding of, would then be able to overcome by consciously training his mind and eventually reprogramming it.

I fear that may just be a pipe-dream.

So I'll continue to ride the rollercoaster until it stops, or until I'm thrown off.

Edited May 4, 2015 by stevethemanjordan

[The Gunslinger 41]

Don't mind a bit of hyperbole then?

Well that is what Jack seems to be doing, just bowling along in a hypostatic way.

[ManDee 7,336]

In defence of Jack Watts.................... na, I've got nothing.

[Demon Disciple 12,482]

if he wasn't a former #1 pick, he'd already have his papers stamped.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

.............On a club level. I am still angry and resentful for the way in which we handled him. We clearly were a basket-case club back then with the wrong people in power on most lines at our club. We gifted him games, as we did for many young players over that period. We did not instil or develop any style of play into his game. He was not made to earn games by working on areas of his game that were and still are not up to AFL standard. ...................

And that about sums it up. What compounded this problem is that the regime as it was then failed to retain some leadership of any substance within the group. This led to a lack of development of the younger guys. Dean Bailey was sold out - by whom? Not for me to say, but I know he didn't want JW to play as soon as he did. We are still reaping what was sown back then unfortunately. Similarly the fortunes of the likes of Grimes and Trengove follow that familiar path. The contrast is more stark with Watts because he came with a lot more fanfare at the time.

I want to believe in JW, but while I have no doubt as to his natural talent, I am not sure he now has the bottle or the will to take that talent further.

Trade him at seasons end? Maybe, but knowing our luck, that will probably come back to bite us on the backside as well

Edited May 4, 2015 by iv'a worn smith

[Ethan Tremblay 31,270]

In defence of Jack Watts.................... na, I've got nothing.

Don't you forget it.

[hemingway 7,633]

Irrespective of the debate, it may be in Jack's best interest to walk away from the game at season end. The pressure on him must be enormous and must be affecting his life and his well-being. Irrespective of the circumstances, no-one deserves the attention and public ridicule that he goes through from week to week. At the end of the day, he is a decent human being that does not deserve it.

[ManDee 7,336]

Don't you forget it.

ET, I think the best person to defend Jack Watts is Jack Watts. He needs to come out and play some blinders. Then I will defend him, but until then I will become silent. (maybe).

[John Crow Batty 8,886]

Who was it that tipped (a while ago) that he would retire early? I'm starting to see it now; sublimely skilled, but no ticker- was always that 1 important element away from greatness, but has now proven beyond a doubt that it isn't in him and can not be developed.

No club will trade for him, and we are probably at the point now that he can not hide anymore now that the whole team has developed a hardened edge.

My tip is he will be told when his contract is up that it will not be renewed. There is no point going through the indignity of being floated around for trade for nil interest, as all the cards have been put on the table, therefore an early retirement to focus on life outside football and save face for both parties. I can smell it.

Knowing our luck, we delist him. He gets picked up low in the PSD, has an Archangel Gabriel visitation and becomes a star. There are a lot of egotistical coaches who think they can perform miracles also. Edited May 4, 2015 by america de cali

[Ethan Tremblay 31,270]

ET, I think the best person to defend Jack Watts is Jack Watts. He needs to come out and play some blinders. Then I will defend him, but until then I will become silent. (maybe).

I respect that MD. I just find it astounding posters are suggesting he retires at years end because of how the critiscm must be making him feel.

Maybe he has a thick skin and doesn't give a scheisse.

[DeeZee 7,462]

I'm always hoping that Jack will come good and get some consistency and maybe a bit if mongrel, but I'm starting to feel like I did with Colin Sylvia.....waiting......waiting...............waiting.

I always think back to when Jack was drafted , and a mate of mine who coached him in the Vic metro side said at the the time that we had made a huge mistake in drafting him.......why?

Soft as butter was his response.

But he kicked all those goals at the championships?

Just happened to have a bit of a purple patch and got on the end of a few delivered by a very talented midfield.

No doubt he has the skills but just don't think he has the ticker or the appetite for destruction.

Edited May 4, 2015 by DeeZee

[Henrietta Lumbago 331]

"Water boy" - thought I'd get in first.

Good question. He plays well when the team plays well and obviously fails to step up to the challenge. If he is to stay in the starting 22 I'd probably swap him out with Howe.

And compare his game to Brayshaw's, who is a player when things get tough he gets going, th complete opposite to Watts, Watts could learn a lot off 4 gamer Brayshaw and our favourite hard nut Viney.