POST MATCH DISCUSSION - ROUND 2, 2015

[Generation dee 1,336]

Surely there was a virus or flu strain or something going on for so many players to play that badly and have no energy. I've never seen Howe, Jones, Dunn, lumumba, Tyson, Vince or any other senior player fumble so badly like they did today. Even the first half- those guys couldn't get near it. It was newton, garlett, vanders, Kent and viney who were getting the ball into hogan. I've stuck up for Dawes since he signed but yesterday just ruined it. Trying to run through tackles and getting pinned, dropping sitters and moving so slow you had to line him up with a goal post to see if he was moving. Thank god hogan is there.

[Robbie57 1,991]

Akum is right we went into the game (like last year) too top heavy for GWS. That was my concern before the game.

The real problem is that we are not consistent yet in our effort. It happened preseason and will happen again. Yesterday we had too many who just played below their usual effort.

What is disappointing is that our best is as good as most teams.

The good news is that whilst we will have bad patches like that we are going to get it together more often than we have previously. As our talent and consistency builds so will the returns.

We are not the side we once were and I remain positive about the season ahead we are going to see some very good wins along the way.

[Nasher 33,068]

Are people truthfully of the view that if we'd played JKH instead of Dawes (that's what the "we were too top heavy" argument amounts to), none of that embarrassment in Q3 would have happened, and we'd have won?

Not buying it.

We lost because our core midfield which appeared to be Jones, Tyson and Cross stunk on the day (without meaning to single these guys out as there were many others that were poor, but that is where it all begins). As rpfc pointed out, it's a major single point of failure that we already knew about - on this particular day it failed. Everything else, including top heaviness, for mine was just minor issues around the edges.

[chookrat 3,776]

I don't think we lost the game at the selection table. We lost it because the players weren't foxussed on the task at hand. After the 1st qtr we dropped off and GWS started winning clearances and keeping possession in their forward half. After half time instead of digging in to wrestle momentum we dropped out heads, were flat footed and gave GWS too much space which made us look slow. Each time we gave the ball carrier and recipient space it exposed our entire defensive structure, and rather than our leaders marshalling to tighten up our we dropped our heads, lost focus, and played looser. Like Roos said it wasn't about fitness but above the shoulders.

This isn't the end of the world and it is about how we respond and break this 'Melbourne' habit during the course of the season. Last week v GCS we demonstrated we could do this. Let's see how we respond v Adelaide next week - not so much whether we win but our ability to compete for 4 quarters against a top 4 contender.

[Redleg 37,696]

Jones must have had an issue, as he was hunched over often, while his opponent was running away with the ball.

His fumbling and lack of run was totally un Jones like. I wonder if he was sick.

[Slartibartfast 15,808]

Terrible call re newton. Absolutely terrible. In fact, on a thread full of so many horrible calls, that stands out. You're better than that.

What Newton's primary role? If it's to kick goals he's been ok. If it's as a mid he's been disappointing. I thought it was the second and hoped he'd be the high possession good kicking mid we need. He's showed little of that to date.

What did he play yesterday? And if it is the goal kicking high half forward he needs to apply forward pressure. Jury well and truly out for me.

[praha 10,286]

His fumbling and lack of run was totally un Jones like. I wonder if he was sick.

I believe he has Melbournitis, although it lays dormant for years before eventually evolving, in which case the victim becomes "Melbourne'd".

[Sir Why You Little 34,594]

I still cannot believe there was an 88 point turnaround in yesterdays game.

For me it is all attitude and application

Didn't go in for the kill...Very disappointed.

[Lucifers Hero 37,141]

Newton received a pretty heavy head knock and had to take the 20min concussion rule and was temporarily subbed out. It was close to a sling tackle and he hit the turf hard. That he came back on and stayed on is testament to his toughness and the knock probably slowed him up a bit.

We should cut him some slack.

[Macca 16,173]

Are people truthfully of the view that if we'd played JKH instead of Dawes (that's what the "we were too top heavy" argument amounts to), none of that embarrassment in Q3 would have happened, and we'd have won?

Not buying it.

We lost because our core midfield which appeared to be Jones, Tyson and Cross stunk on the day (without meaning to single these guys out as there were many others that were poor, but that is where it all begins). As rpfc pointed out, it's a major single point of failure that we already knew about - on this particular day it failed. Everything else, including top heaviness, for mine was just minor issues around the edges.

Dawes for Frost made more sense but then who 2nd rucks? Or Frost to the backline and drop one of the back 6? (I'm talking about the selected team for yesterday - next week is another story)

There's a few reasons why we lost badly in the end ... the main reason was the clearances/midfield/Mumford. Our forward line can't be expected to function well if we can't get the ball in there enough times with quickness and efficiently. The backline ended up being under siege like we've seen before. They used the ball better when they had it too.

Jones & Tyson had 4 clearances between them when we ordinarily could have expected 12-14 clearances from them out of the 86 total clearances. Give us 10 more clearances and 10 less for them and the count is 46-40 in our favour (instead of 50-36 in their favour)

With those numbers we see a different type of outcome (not necessarily a win for us)

Edit: Mumford is a great example of how much influence an A grade ruckman can have - Jamar wasn't disgraced either - he just met his match yesterday (and some)

.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Macca

[Wiseblood 24,636]

The top 7 or so possession winners on the field were all GWS midfielders. I think that tells us all we need to know. When the going got tough we didn't have anyone stand up and their midfielders smashed us.

For that reason I think we can give the backline and the forwardline a pass for this game. Our backs were under constant pressure while our forwards didn't get the opportunity to put their hands on it enough to have an influence, particularly after half time.

I have confidence that this will be addressed in the coming weeks in terms of our midfield, but it just goes to show how far we will have to come.

[Sammbo 19]

It bemuses me that Howe keeps getting bagged.

It's obvious he's not a backman, so why play him there?.

His strength, in case you haven't noticed, is his ability to take a mark, something we need desparately in the forward line.

It took a few coaches and a number of seasons and trials in avariety of positions before Lyndon Dunn found his niche in the back line.

We don't have that long - fast track Howe back into the forard line... please!

[chookrat 3,776]

I believe he has Melbournitis, although it lays dormant for years before eventually evolving, in which case the victim becomes "Melbourne'd".

THIS - the loss had little to do with selection, game plan or tactics. Our players caught Melbournitis which like chickenpox virus lays dormant and can appear in a manner similar to shingles. A dose of reality should clear this up for next week.

[Generation dee 1,336]

What Newton's primary role? If it's to kick goals he's been ok. If it's as a mid he's been disappointing. I thought it was the second and hoped he'd be the high possession good kicking mid we need. He's showed little of that to date.

What did he play yesterday? And if it is the goal kicking high half forward he needs to apply forward pressure. Jury well and truly out for me.

While he hasn't been a high possession winner as yet, he has looked damaging at times. He can win his own ball and he is a solid disposer. We are talking about a guy who has played less than 10 afl games, and just 2 at his second club.

[What 18,810]

Surely there was a virus or flu strain or something going on for so many players to play that badly and have no energy.

Im just going to pretend this is true For comfort.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

It has to be true. How else does Jones go from starring every week to stinking it up for one game. An isolated incident- a one off. His body wasn't right, he has proven he is un-melbournable and has many credits in the bank.

God help us if he gets a legit injury!

[Nasher 33,068]

What Newton's primary role? If it's to kick goals he's been ok. If it's as a mid he's been disappointing. I thought it was the second and hoped he'd be the high possession good kicking mid we need. He's showed little of that to date.

What did he play yesterday? And if it is the goal kicking high half forward he needs to apply forward pressure. Jury well and truly out for me.

Newton only had 58% game time according to the afl.com.au stats. On a pro-rata basis (if all players had played 100% GT and accumulated possessions at the same rate that they did) he'd have been 2-3 possessions behind Viney and Tyson and about 4 possessions behind Cross (who was our leading possession winner in both pro-rata possessions and actual possessions). This on top of having his head smashed in to the turf after a sling tackle early on, I'm prepared to cut him some slack.

I don't know if "pro-rata possessions" is a meaningful thing, but I'm not sure how else to account for midfielders who spend more time on the field than others.

[Deespicable 2,548]

Interesting to see the turn in comments from last week and primarily from half time yesterday.

Ultimately after a really good start, we were smashed in the middle and didn't cope with their tackling intensity which started in the second term, but we hung on.

Any chance of us slowing the run on and turning the game into a Sydney-style stoppages game was destroyed by the fact that our two best from 2014 - Jones and Tyson - were unable to get their hands on it and as a result our confidence went out the door and we suddenly looked really slow, something which this year we aren't.

I am sure Jones had a niggle of some kind - it was so unlike him.

Interestingly if you throw in our most improved player last year - Jetta - who had another quietish game - it's fair to say that some times when you think you've made it, you've got to go back to the basics and work even harder than before - Crossy style.

I am still a bit concerned at the lack of pace in our midfield - I know we did a lot of 400 reps in the off-season, but did Misson employ a sprints coach for the guys who needed it (eg: Toumpas, Tyson, N.Jones, Vince, Dunn, Pedo, Salem and quite a few others who would have benefitted) or did he just assume that with Garlett, Lumumba and Frost now in our side, we didn't have to work on explosive speed?

My only comment is "Don't write everyone off on the basis of one game or in reality one bad half".

I very much doubt there'll be a lot of changes this week and nor should there be - give them a chance to get back to being level-headed after the Rd 1 euphoria.

[Nasher 33,068]

 

Newton only had 58% game time according to the afl.com.au stats.  On a pro-rata basis (if all players had played 100% GT and accumulated possessions at the same rate that they did) he'd have been 2-3 possessions behind Viney and Tyson and about 4 possessions behind Cross (who was our leading possession winner in both pro-rata possessions and actual possessions).

 

I don't know if "pro-rata possessions" is a meaningful thing, but I'm not sure how else to account for midfielders who spend more time on the field than others.  

 

If anyone cares, here's the complete set:

Name	Disp	GT%	PRDisp
Daniel Cross	23	91	25.27
Bernie Vince	13	52	25.00
Dom Tyson	17	71	23.94
Christian Salem	22	93	23.66
Angus Brayshaw	8	34	23.53
Jack Viney	19	85	22.35
Heritier Lumumba	19	90	21.11
Ben Newton	12	58	20.69
Aaron Vandenberg	16	81	19.75
Tom McDonald	16	93	17.20
Lynden Dunn	16	93	17.20
Jack Watts	15	88	17.05
Neville Jetta	14	83	16.87
Dean Kent	13	86	15.12
Jesse Hogan	13	88	14.77
Chris Dawes	12	89	13.48
Sam Frost	10	76	13.16
Nathan Jones	11	89	12.36
Jeremy Howe	10	86	11.63
Mark Jamar	9	78	11.54
Jeff Garlett	9	86	10.47
Colin Garland	8	96	8.33

Brayshaw definitely has a case for more game time.

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

But your senseless take on football amuses me.

feeling is very much mutual, believe me.

[mo64 5,209]

Are people truthfully of the view that if we'd played JKH instead of Dawes (that's what the "we were too top heavy" argument amounts to), none of that embarrassment in Q3 would have happened, and we'd have won?

Not buying it.

We lost because our core midfield which appeared to be Jones, Tyson and Cross stunk on the day (without meaning to single these guys out as there were many others that were poor, but that is where it all begins). As rpfc pointed out, it's a major single point of failure that we already knew about - on this particular day it failed. Everything else, including top heaviness, for mine was just minor issues around the edges.

Whilst I agree with your 2nd point about our core midfield stinking on the day, you're underselling the importance of rotations, spreading and pressure, against a team whose strength is their run. From our starting line up from last week JKH and Brayshaw were absent, and both provided run, spread and pressure.

JKH for Dawes wouldn't have changed the result, but having 1 less player to apply pressure and run means that the other players have to work harder. Despite what the scoreboard read, the writing was on the wall during the 2nd quarter.

IMO, we also went into the game with 1 too many talls in the backline. Once it was decided that Garland would take McCarthy and T Mac took Cameron, what's the point of having Dunn and Howe down back? Once Tomlinson went down, Dawes should have been subbed and Howe moved up forward.

[Gorgoroth 12,331]

Jamar needs to be replaced, we do not have a decent ruckman on our list, Jamar can get his hand to it, but doesn't do a lot with it.

Gawn I don't think is the answer, nor Fitzy. Spencil I don't think is the answer either.

We need to target a good ruck at years end.

Next we need a A grade midfielder. And I mean of the comp.

Jones is fantastic, but he ain't a star of the comp. Tyson also was immense last year but butchers the ball too often and does not like a tag, I hope he gets better but I still don't think he will be a star of the comp.

Brayshaw looks very good, but like Viney I think will be a hard nut, but not a star like Pendlebury, Judd etc.

Will Petracca be that player? Not sure, Salem... Maybe.

But I think a dominant ruck should be our priority.

We saw yesterday with Mumford that when a ruck dominates and there is a decent midfield under him you get first use and usually in a good area.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Gorgoroth

[dazzledavey36 48,871]

Dom Tyson only got 71% game time. Compared to Jones and Cross its a bit low.. wonder if he is carrying something. Definitely hasn't been himself the last two weeks.

[Coq au vin 754]

To give credit where it is somewhat due, Greatest Waste of Space' players did look very fast and slick with their movement of the ball out of the centre. They put on quite a performance in the second half. Our guys couldn't get near/catch them. But our guys looked tired from the time they first came onto the ground. Is it the ridiculous diet they are on? Did they all go out late the night before? Did they not sleep properly in the hotel?

[Lucifers Hero 37,141]

If anyone cares, here's the complete set:

The big surprise there is that Bernie played only 52% of the game time...effectively we were a midfielder short for half the game! No wonder we looked slow around the stoppages.

That strongly suggests he should not have been selected or if that was the plan he should have been the sub and have a fit player out there.