THE ESSENDON 34: ON TRIAL

[Red and Bluebeard 2,084]

I think the ca-ca is heading for the fan, by the looks of this ... Former Bomber takes aim at 'scientifically pioneering program'

[rjay 24,928]

It's independent. We've got two respected ex-judges and a barrister. If they're seen to be acting in a way that's outside the law or the application of the law, or that they acted under or were swayed by external pressure, it would be the end of their careers. They also know that they need to dot their i's and cross their t's and come up with a CAS-proof verdict, and that regardless of how big the AFL think they are, WADA are bigger.

Further, if it wasn't independent, the AFL wouldn't have had to make a submission. And Gill wouldn't be running to the press with his "hint hint" interview.

Though for the CEO of the AFL to be commenting publicly about an ongoing AFL Tribunal case as serious as this, just goes to show how little he "gets it". If Ben McD from ASADA gave an interview like McLachlan just did, he'd be out of a job.

If they're ex-judges aren't their careers already over 'bing'.

I don't trust words like independent, transparent or integrity where the AFL are concerned.

[Ethan Tremblay 30,861]

If they're ex-judges aren't their careers already over 'bing'.

I don't trust words like independent, transparent or integrity where the AFL are concerned.

Nor do I trust it where lawyers, magistrates or judges are concerned.

[biggestred 5,088]

I think the ca-ca is heading for the fan, by the looks of this ... Former Bomber takes aim at 'scientifically pioneering program'

I.e. tell me what you put into my body or pay up.

Good.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,053]

Pardon my naivety, but can someone please explain to me what advantage ice would give a footy player who was under it's influence? I'd imagine it would make them more fearless and more prone to taking risks on the field, but I can't believe it would improve their decision making, fitness, steadiness under pressure or skills in general. And I can't believe it would aid post game recovery or speed of injury recovery. Sounds like a bit of a media urban myth, or at least I hope it's a myth.

Can any doctors in the house provide an expert opinion?

I'll note that I don't believe that there re coaches giving their players ice. I suspect there would be plenty turning a blind eye to it's use though.

Ice is a methamphetamine, along the same lines as speed but stronger. It's in the same family as the drugs American fighter pilots are given before missions. The advantage of taking something like this in a sporting (or combat) situation is that you experience a period of high energy and heightened awareness. Your reactions times drop markedly for this period and your heart rate climbs. It's basically like a big dose of adrenaline. Added to this with Ice is the noted point that it makes them fearless (at least physically, it can lead to paranoia), reduces the ability to feel pain and increases aggression. For an individual footballer, these are all good things. They are going to be more aggressive, less worried about hurting themselves and their reactions are faster. The downside is that it is also known to impair judgement (again, look at American fighter pilots and friendly fire incidents). Thus while the players are going to gain a physical advantage, it will come at the expense of a loss of tactical awareness and team play. I suspect that for bush league teens this is a pretty decent trade, although at professional levels where following the plan is more valued they would have problems.

[faultydet 7,594]

I'll note that I don't believe that there re coaches giving their players ice. I suspect there would be plenty turning a blind eye to it's use though.

The downside is that it is also known to impair judgement (again, look at American fighter pilots and friendly fire incidents).

So the U.S has friendly fire incidents because it gives drugs to its pilots?

Wow, just........wow. Evidence please, or you will need to excuse me for thinking you are a fool.

[old dee 23,791]

2

[beelzebub 23,376]

If they're ex-judges aren't their careers already over 'bing'.

I don't trust words like independent, transparent or integrity where the AFL are concerned.

If this tribunal was actually independent of the AFL, indeed if it wasn't an AFL tribunal, if it wasn't peopled by persons with a sympathetic football history and selected by.. the AFL then I might think it....independent.

But its not . Actually look into their histories and I would suggest this is about as stacked as you can be whilst purporting to be "independent"

Ill happily be wrong but I only expect the minimum from from this judgement. I do however believe a massive correction to follow from the REAL independent arbiter.

The fallout will be the worst nightmare scenario for the league , let alone the EFC.

Personally I doubt Essendon will eventually survive; not in this current form at least.

There's a day of retribution coming....and its all their own fault, their own doing.

The AFL keep perpetuating the same misconceptions, they being its just a little local mishap

Essendon probably DO get it and are petrified of its probable path.

The AFL dont get it. They're idiots led by idiots. .

Cancers need eradication. Sometimes that's not subtle.

Edited March 28, 2015 by beelzebub

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

I think the ca-ca is heading for the fan, by the looks of this ... Former Bomber takes aim at 'scientifically pioneering program'

Probably the beginning of many out of court, player settlements as EFC will refuse to hand over incriminating documents. EFC will do everything it can to stop the shxx hitting the fan. Doubt those documents will see the light of day.

[John Crow Batty 8,863]

I'll note that I don't believe that there re coaches giving their players ice. I suspect there would be plenty turning a blind eye to it's use though.

Ice is a methamphetamine, along the same lines as speed but stronger. It's in the same family as the drugs American fighter pilots are given before missions. The advantage of taking something like this in a sporting (or combat) situation is that you experience a period of high energy and heightened awareness. Your reactions times drop markedly for this period and your heart rate climbs. It's basically like a big dose of adrenaline. Added to this with Ice is the noted point that it makes them fearless (at least physically, it can lead to paranoia), reduces the ability to feel pain and increases aggression. For an individual footballer, these are all good things. They are going to be more aggressive, less worried about hurting themselves and their reactions are faster. The downside is that it is also known to impair judgement (again, look at American fighter pilots and friendly fire incidents). Thus while the players are going to gain a physical advantage, it will come at the expense of a loss of tactical awareness and team play. I suspect that for bush league teens this is a pretty decent trade, although at professional levels where following the plan is more valued they would have problems.

This is an old practice. British bomber pilots and crew in WWII were given "wakey wakey" pills to keep them alert during missions. Messed with their minds and bodies bad but no big deal considering they only had about 50% chance of surviving the war.

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

I think the ca-ca is heading for the fan, by the looks of this ... Former Bomber takes aim at 'scientifically pioneering program'

I'm not optimistic that the 34 players will be found guilty based on that article as there may not be enough proof for 'guilty'. AFL/EFC come out of it (for a while at least) with a PR campaign of 'we told you so' soft story while ASADA/WADA are left to be the bad guys who have to do the dirty work and appeal.

The AFL are missing another opportunity to fly the 'no drugs in sport' banner. Interestingly, it is Bomber Thompson who has and still is the one flying this flag: "The new Fox Footy commentator says there is no place in football for supplements program..." http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/mark-thompson-says-essendon-players-should-be-cleared-have-been-treated-very-poorly/story-fndv8gad-1227281914470 Reading between the lines he thought something very dodgy was happening.

Notwithstanding WADA appealing with all guns blazing, if Tuesday goes for the players it will be a terrible 'whitewash' and a terrible message from the AFL. To the world at large (and kids) it may look like 'its ok if you scr-w up just don't get caught'. Terrible!

[Pipefitter 2,159]

Fairly comprehensive and, for once, balanced article on what went on at Essendon from the HUN.

Nothing new, of course, but still shocking when you read through it all in one place - though even this doesn't touch on Alavi, Charter etc. etc.

Essendon drugs saga: How Stephen Dank ran the controversial supplement program

This is not "bad governance". This is an absolute disgrace. Illegal drugs or not, what they did to the players is horrible. If this happened at Melbourne i'd be baying for blood. Essendon supporters are such nuffies.

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

Matthew Lloyd is living in la la land: "It makes me wonder whether the AFL, Essendon or ASADA will be equipped to handle the tidal wave of anger and emotion in the event of a guilty verdict. " http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/game-faces-threats-and-the-league-must-respond-20150328-1m8s5w.html

What about the tsunami of anger and emotion from the other 17 clubs and supporters in the event of a not guilty verdict, Mr Lloyd!!! Such a tsunami would be a much greater threat to the AFL and the game, than 34 players having their reputations tarnished and a short holiday from the game. I don't know what he is smokin but he has no grasp on what people outside EFC are thinking. Delusional, like the rest of them!!

[Red and Bluebeard 2,084]

I'm not optimistic that the 34 players will be found guilty based on that article as there may not be enough proof for 'guilty'. AFL/EFC come out of it (for a while at least) with a PR campaign of 'we told you so' soft story while ASADA/WADA are left to be the bad guys who have to do the dirty work and appeal.

The AFL are missing another opportunity to fly the 'no drugs in sport' banner. Interestingly, it is Bomber Thompson who has and still is the one flying this flag: "The new Fox Footy commentator says there is no place in football for supplements program..." http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/mark-thompson-says-essendon-players-should-be-cleared-have-been-treated-very-poorly/story-fndv8gad-1227281914470 Reading between the lines he thought something very dodgy was happening.

Notwithstanding WADA appealing with all guns blazing, if Tuesday goes for the players it will be a terrible 'whitewash' and a terrible message from the AFL. To the world at large (and kids) it may look like 'its ok if you scr-w up just don't get caught'. Terrible!

I think the interesting thing is that someone who is not one of the 34 is asking for documents that go to the heart of the case. If they are produced, then there will be no more places to hide. If they are not, Essendon will have to work very hard to show they took due care. Either way, this process is independent of ASADA and can't be ignored by Essendon.

[Red and Bluebeard 2,084]

Probably the beginning of many out of court, player settlements as EFC will refuse to hand over incriminating documents. EFC will do everything it can to stop the shxx hitting the fan. Doubt those documents will see the light of day.

So the threat of having to produce documents will be enough for them to settle, you think? I can see what you mean, but if they do this for one of the players who is not one of the 34, then surely they would be under pressure to do this for all on the list at the time.

One for the lawyers amongst us: if a court orders Essendon to hand over the documents, can they refuse? If they were ordered to and did not, then the publicity from that would be enough to make even the AFL think about further sanctions ...

[Lucifers Hero 39,811]

So the threat of having to produce documents will be enough for them to settle, you think? I can see what you mean, but if they do this for one of the players who is not one of the 34, then surely they would be under pressure to do this for all on the list at the time.

One for the lawyers amongst us: if a court orders Essendon to hand over the documents, can they refuse? If they were ordered to and did not, then the publicity from that would be enough to make even the AFL think about further sanctions ...

Good question R & B. I recall EFC saying that the dog ate the documents .

Agree, eventually the AFL will need to take a stand. There will come a point where protecting EFC to protect the AFL will be counterproductive and more damaging.

[Whispering_Jack 30,136]

Nor do I trust it where lawyers, magistrates or judges are concerned.

Judges don't always get things right or perfect in the eyes of those who observe the cases that come before them. That's why we have appeal processes built into our legal systems. It was mentioned above that Judge Jones was on the Tribunal that allowed Barry Hall to play in the 2005 grand final. Wasn't "Moose" Henwood one of those sitting on the Tribunal that handed Jack Viney a two match ban (subsequently overturned on appeal) for that bump last year?

On what I've read about this saga and the fact that the ASADA case involved three days of opening submissions alone, I would think there is a circumstantial case for sanctions against the players on the basis of reasonable satisfaction. That's how I think it will go on Tuesday but if it doesn't, I have no doubt that WADA will take it to Switzerland and it might well add in a charge involving the use of AOD9604 in addition to TB4.

The integrity of the WADA Code is based on preserving the S0 category which many drug cheats would otherwise use to circumvent the Code. The powers at WADA will therefore not be pleased with a not guilty verdict or a wet tram ticket penalty even if the Tribunal, as expected, comes down hard on Dank. This whole saga has dragged on for so long because Essendon is unable to provide a shred of detail about what was ingested into the players' bodies in 2011/2 - the Tribunal should not allow this fact to get the players who signed waiver forms off the hook.

[grazman 7,436]

Here's my 2 cents for what its worth, to quote Nietzche.

"All things are subject to interpretation, whichever interpretation prevails at a given time is a function of power and not truth."

In 1916 before the first battle of the Somme the British subjected the German lines to the greatest ever bombardment in history (to that point). A bombardment so great that it could be heard across the channel - sort of like the Essendon media bombardment but on a bigger scale. The British full of confidence that the overwhelming weight of force had settled the battle for them, then got out of their trenches and casually strolled towards the German line only to be mown down. They lost 20,000 men in the first hour alone and 60,000 men in 24 hours. They had engaged in an escalating commitment to a failing course of action, very much like Essendon, but the AFL aren't sitting behind their Maxim guns waiting to mow them down, ASADA/WADA are.

I think the only thing more likely (and more stupid) for the AFL on Tuesday than to deliver a 6 month ban is to deliver a not guilty verdict. I expect that Gill et al have one eye on the clause in their contracts that kicks in their performance bonus and they're wondering how the hell they can get it if one of their biggest drawing teams suddenly starts drawing MFC like crowds. I also suspect that there's a certain amount of hubris and ego involved in both Essendon and AFL camps and they're choosing to ignore the messages that ASADA and WADA are making about appealing. Though I think given the situation that ASADA may look for a way to sidestep the issue and let its bigger brother bare the brunt in this regards.

All of this clouds the issue that the AFL like most professional sports is only interested in growing profits. They've instituted a three strikes regime to ensure the best players continue to get on the park. The Issue around drugs in football is both the prolific (at least larger than the common perception) recreational and performance enhancing use (see Dale Lewis) and how the risk can be mitigated. I find claims by all and sundry that they were unaware of the issues at West Coast with Ben Cousins a reflection on their culpability. (I wish I had of known, prove that I didn't). Now they are no longer heroes because we can't use them to sell the game (i.e. merchandise, memberships, sponsorships etc), but we're comfortable to wash our hands of the issue and claim its a bigger society wide problem (yes it is, but that doesn't absolve you from your responsibilities). Issues like Karmichael Hunt and the Gold Coast Titans I'm sure lurk in the back of most football club CEOs minds and you better have a strategy because football is entertainment, and entertainment is about perception (your selling a fantasy - people don't want reality). Ruin the illusion and people switch off.

I might be a damn cynic (and I think most idealists are) but I do believe in humanity... and Karma. We may never learn the truth of the Essendon saga, but we might find out who has the most power Essendon/AFL or ASADA/WADA?

[dpositive 1,665]

Yeah, I meant satisfied in the sense that it would be final. WADA wouldn't appeal, the players cop their penalties because they have to, the AFL can move on and the Essendon club also cop their penalties because they have to.

That's if there are any penalties of course - I'm expecting an inconsistent outcome but I can't see them being exonerated fully. There's always that "bringing the game into disrepute bit" 'bb'

Dont know that WADA consider bringing the game into disrepute.

Surely the emphasis has to be on wiping out performance enhancing drugs.

Still think the variable scale may be applied some more guilty than others on the basis of evidence and performance.

[Willmoy1947 4,088]

Headline: Essendon found not guilty. WADA/AFL Agreement dissolved.

[Melbman2 226]

It's independent. We've got two respected ex-judges and a barrister. If they're seen to be acting in a way that's outside the law or the application of the law, or that they acted under or were swayed by external pressure, it would be the end of their careers. They also know that they need to dot their i's and cross their t's and come up with a CAS-proof verdict, and that regardless of how big the AFL think they are, WADA are bigger.

Further, if it wasn't independent, the AFL wouldn't have had to make a submission. And Gill wouldn't be running to the press with his "hint hint" interview.

Though for the CEO of the AFL to be commenting publicly about an ongoing AFL Tribunal case as serious as this, just goes to show how little he "gets it". If Ben McD from ASADA gave an interview like McLachlan just did, he'd be out of a job.

I think there are plenty of examples reported here and OS of judicial roles filled by the "home team's" appointments.

Those same critical reports believe a certain view would be held by those appointees leading to certain outcomes.

If legal outcomes were black and white there would be no need for people to make decisions, personal views, or even bias, may indeed come into decision making, and where any bias is inline with the "home teams" views you have a situation where outcomes may follow a preference of the "home team".

I am open to believing this may not be the case but until proven otherwise I expect things to run as above.

[sue 9,106]

We've got two respected ex-judges and a barrister.

I don't respect any judge who could have let Barry Hall off so he could play in a grand final and keep the AFL happy. Sorry.

[Macca 16,970]

Dont know that WADA consider bringing the game into disrepute.

Surely the emphasis has to be on wiping out performance enhancing drugs.

Still think the variable scale may be applied some more guilty than others on the basis of evidence and performance.

I was thinking more about the penalties handed down by the tribunal with the added effect of the AFL satisfying the public ... we're talking public image, perceived tranparency, expediency, etc etc ... with WADA/ASADA accepting those penalties.

We may see a mixture of different penalties and/or a result that is designed to end this saga (litigation aside)

All along, the AFL & the Bombers have known that a large percentage of the footy public have wanted this whole saga to just go away. So. "give 'em what they want" may end up being the story of the day. Nothing would surprise me 'dp'

However, like most other people, I'm just speculating - one thing I do know is that there is a lot that we don't know. It's difficult for anyone to draw accurate conclusions given the circumstances.

[Whispering_Jack 30,136]

Another reminder of the delusional mind of the man who ran the Essendon doping programme ~ Thymosin Beta 4 is not on WADA banned list: Dank

[sue 9,106]

Another reminder of the delusional mind of the man who ran the Essendon doping programme ~ Thymosin Beta 4 is not on WADA banned list: Dank

A loose canon and a loud explosion will ensue:

Dank said he was considering legal action against the Bombers' 2013 internal report conducted by former Telstra boss, Ziggy Switkowski.

"It is really laughable to suggest we conducted anything in a pharmacologically experimental manner. It was well known what was used at Essendon Football Club so the furphy that has been portrayed by the AFL, ASADA and the Essendon Football Club, that they don't know, is completely wrong," he said.