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Preuss for Ollie Florent or the Swans can get stuffed. Preuss for one of their young mids - Hately, Caldwell etc - or Giants can get stuffed too. I'm being a little facetious there, but at the same time, we hold all the cards. Why potentially make the opposition stronger for nothing more than a third rounder, which this year is like giving him up for a six pack of beer and a bag of pretzels? Play hard ball - if they want him, give us something good and you can have him. Otherwise we keep him and move forward.

3 top 3 finishes in the B+F in the last 4 years. Quibbling over him getting $50-100k more than you think he should get is not worth pushing him out. He’s a leader, a CP machine, and will always give first use. He allows Oliver and Petracca to be more outside, and if Clayton wants to be as damaging as his mate in the 5 was in 2020 - he might want to take the assist that Viney provides.

When the coach talks about the club needing to grow up and be more ruthless after the Freo loss, for mine the fans need to follow suit. I bang on about this a bit but globally we as a sport are miles behind. I was born in 77, it was footy/cricket and loyalty to the club/badge over the heart. Times have very much changed. Kawahi Leonard was traded to Toronto In the NBA with 1 year left on his contract. He and his team won the championship, he left after that one season. NHL captains are traded/leave in free agency frequently. St Louis Blues captain who lead them to a Stanley Cup last seasons is threatening to leave as a UFA this season. The great Messi wants to leave Barca. Is Jack Viney going to learn to kick on both feet? Is he going to learn how to dish off a slick handball before being caught in a tackle and often for holding the ball? Can he improve on his consistency over a season? Is his future upside higher than Brayshaw, Oli or Tracc? For me it’s no to all of the above. Just because I believe that doesn’t mean I don't have emotional ties to Jack and his dad as Dees legends. Can his value as an UFA give us a greater chance to win a flag than his value/cost to us as a player? I believe yes. We need cap space and outside skill and run, his leaving give us the option to save money/trade for/UFA some of what we need imho.

In 2020 we had 4 players in Langdon, Tomlinson, Pickett and Jackson come into what was essentially a fully fit side for the year. That simply tells us that ( injuries aside) the 2018/9 sides had too many ordinary, fringe, below par players being selected. That two 18 year olds could walk into the side, no matter how talented they are and then hold their spots was more damning. If we want improvement in 2021, we are not addressing the fundamental problem, by seeking improvement from the likes of Oliver, Trac, May, Gawn etc. They are already good with only marginal improvement possible. Even if it happens it won't help the team as much as the improvement required across the board. We simply have to stop being forced to select that group of players who have been around 4,5,6 and longer years, and are still being dropped from the side due to poor performances. ( There are a couple of others who weren't being dropped as well). To put it simply we need talent where currently there is little. And we need it now! There is no point waiting. Gawn is 28. Viney 26 Petracca 24 Lever 24. How many more years are we going to wait, and risking that talented group leaving for greener pastures? The draft this year will be unlikely to produce anything to solve our problems due to NGA picks and what is looking like a raft of compensation picks following FA. This is the year we need to trade heavily to bring in players who can kick and have the talent to stay in the side all year long, replacing those fringe players we currently see week in and week out.

I remember waaaay back in the day there was a bloke who hung around these, and other, boards called 'chilli boy'. He used to spout all sorts of outlandish gossip and some people used to eat it up, even though it was never, ever going to happen. Those were the days!

It wont rip the heart and soul of the club players come and go these days players accept it and fans eventually accept it but lets face it Viney is a one trick pony would sooner develop another player or put Harmes back in the guts and play the role he did 2018.

From AFL.com regarding Smith. Ideally searching for a two-year contract and it could still come at Hawthorn. But Smith admitted on RSN radio this week he wasn't 100 per cent sure what his future held. Carlton and Melbourne are among the parties having a look at the triple premiership wingman who turns 32 in December but is only 10 years into his career.

I think it’s a coaching issue rather than a Jack Viney issue. We rarely have anyone near the outside of a pack waiting to receive the ball. Our mids are all see ball get ball.

Came across this beauty from the National Film & Sound Archive while researching something else. First 40 seconds will give us all a glimpse of past glories. I was lucky enough as a young kid to be there and in those days took premierships for granted. How times have changed. The rest of the promotional film is well worth watching if you'd like to time-warp back to the sixties in Melbourne. https://youtu.be/TC7D5T_m_-k

I was born in 1971. I only freely disclose this to Demonlanders because I know none of you. I have life experience. This talk of ruthlessness is just carp - so 1970s. It’s now all about EQ and understanding what motivates the players, as individuals and how they fit into the collective. I have real concerns for this club if we don’t manage to re-sign Viney. I thought he’s exactly what Goodwin wanted - why then did we trade the likes of Jack Watts? I loathe incompetence, and I am concerned that it may be unfolding here. Yet again.

They have pulled out the cheque book and hopefully put a hole in there salary cap.

Half the writers for the AFL website are laughable with some of the stuff they come up with, so I wouldn’t take anything they say with much respect! Pruess for a 3rd round pick, in a draft where the 1st round will be 25 odd picks, and same with the 2nd round....pfft

Tom McDonald kicked a few bags back in 2018 as well and hasn’t been seen since either, keep him?

i dont understand why people are disinterested in Ben Ronke. I've got no idea what he's been doing the last 2 seasons but in 2018 I remember him kick a bag of 7 and a bag of 5. That's enough for me to be interested and is ahead of any small forwards we have from kicking a bag.

I cant see the net effect of our end of year 22 being anything but improvement next year. Jones and Jetta are the older players in decline who finished outside the side. Hibberd and Melksham (who was poor) are the only players likely to have reduced output and impact due to age. Harmes and TMac who had shockers will either not be there or if they make it back in will be through signficantly improved output. You would expect the core elite of Trac, May, Viney, Oliver, Langdon, Gawn to sustain if they have strong preseasons. Another year of development into Petty, Jordon, Sparrow, LJ, Pickett, Rivers will improve the 16-24 bracket quality. This is before trade and draft trying to improve areas of deficiency. The big questions for me will be what type of 2021 consistent impact can Brayshaw, Lever and Weideman have.

much rather clear Viney but the club has chosen and in my view they are keeping the wrong midfielder Time will tell

It would literally rip the heart and soul out of this club if Viney were to play elsewhere. I don’t want to even think about this being a possibility. We’re too fragile as a club (and as a list) to deal with the potential fallout from this. Even a strong and confident club would struggle to lose such an important franchise player, and we’re not remotely that. It’s bringing back fears of the super shrewd list management decisions made during the Neeld apocalyptic period. Stop playing poker MFC, and re-sign him immediately please.

He needs to spend the entire off season developing his right foot .

Melb don't have enough quality players/depth. He's one of only six or seven that are consistently good. In this context you'd hate to lose Jack. It's how we address that lack of depth that I'm keen to see in this off-season.

Simply have to sign JV up for a further 4 years through to end 2024. He has the heart of a lion. You just can’t replace players like Viney. 2016 B&F winner. 2017 runner up in B&F. Had foot issues which impacted his 2018. 3rd B&F in 2019 3rd B&F in 2020 Leadership award in 2020. Heart and soul of the club.

Or don't overthink it. If we can't accommodate the game's most consistent goal-kicker over the past few years (legit reasons for the slump this year) then we may as well shut up shop. On the market for cheap in terms of trade cookies, late starter, will release Fritsch and co. to do things you don't think Brown can do. I'll say one thing: while we are a serious offender (albeit improved this year), just about every fan laments their club's inability to hit up targets and the bombing it long. You think North had sublime delivery skills all the years Brown was kicking bags? Straightening a team up is a fairly common phrase for a reason. Brown will be our TMac of 2018. Presents on the lead and opens up the angles and further options. You don't ambivilate when a KPF of Brown's quality is on the market for cheap.

Is our 3rd biggest goal kicker in last 2 years.

Too old. Injuries will hit soon.

Article on AFL.com says third rounder. Would rather keep him, unless we have massive salary cap issues.

Jack Viney plays his best football when he is assigned a clear defensive task and then counterattacks when the opportunities come. It focuses him and also minimises the weakness of his 'impulsive' ball use because the occasions when a tagger gets the ball are rarely part of plan A. Put him on the opposition's best and/or softest inside ball user and tell him to dominate that opponent. When he's not doing that, put him up forward and tell him to hunt at will and to be as impulsive as he wants. Do it right and we'll be talking about Mitch Wallis as the proverbial poor man's Jack Viney.

When I get a chance later on I'll put some screenshots up to show what I mean.

I don’t think I could handle more leadership from a 30+ Hawk on a superannuation contract.

I thought this was a thread about Clayton Oliver?

Jurrah snr. kicks his third of the first quarter.

Great post JG. I listened to Jennings a few times in the ladt part of the year. I found him really engaging and interesting. Good ability to explain things simply. He made a really interesting comment about us after I think the freo loss. Basically that our current game plan is now very defensive (implying, at least that was my sense too defensive). and default play is down tbe line and slow movement. The model players to be clear about their role and play it to the letter. Not much scope for individual creatvity and flair and natural football. Ironic then for goody to criticize his players of boring. To be fair to goody his game plan reflects where the game is at, though there is a question if we have the required skill level and players for thst model (and my answer is no). Leaving the game plan aside though i share your concerns about how easy he is to work with. I'd add i wonder how he goes managing syers who perhaps are a bit different or don't have total buy in to his approach (which every team at every club had). I know he us big on relationships and I've read on here that his players love him. But - and I'll hasten to add that I've never met him so perhaps this is unfair - my feeling is that he may not have tbe highest EQ and may not manage conflict or dissenting views very well. He has always struck me as a my way or the highway sort of person. Which is an outdated 1980s style management not suited to such a big group of people who make an AFL football club in 2020. In his public speaking he struggles to relay a strong message and connect. Whilst pressers etc are a different forum than communicating to his players, i do wonder how effective his messaging is to his players. On this last point many pundits and indeed dl posters have noted that players have often looked confused about their roles. And then you get the strange messaging around his scatter shot approach to selections. I may be wrong, but if not if goody is as committed to learning and personal growth as he says he us then I hope he addresses this opportunity for improvement.

Why would you trade for a guy who has similar career stats but is three years older and has been to three clubs? No upside in swapping the two. Is Polec a leader? No is he a match winner? No Is he a team player? From all accounts No... Statistical comparison of the two in the link below, based over a career so far it’s even pegging. Even if you compared on this season and Brayshaw hasn’t been at his best and they are neck and neck - It’s Brayshaw everyday of the week for mine, you’d only consider Polec if you didn’t have to give up much. A swap of players doesn’t make any sense. Brayshaw has a higher ceiling and is 3 years younger. https://www.afl.com.au/stats/stats-pro#/Compare?comparisonTab=h2h&playerIds=CD_I290738,CD_I298279

Just shared this article in another thread: https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/footys-best-and-worst-attacking-kicks-why-melbourne-mids-should-be-embarrassed/news-story/48a26705d7c39f296539f4e663d45c07 I listened to Jennings on 'Whately' a lot this year and his insight as an opposition analyst and gameplan strategist is fascinating. To my eyes at least, last years exodus of coaches smells more than some would like to admit. It's clear to me that Goodwin got his way in the end and the club decided to move a handful of those who perhaps had differing views to the way we should be playing. I thought it was obvious in the way that Jennings spoke about Goodwin this year. Whilst list, positional changes and gameplan need clear addressing over this off-season, so does our group of assistant coaches. Those speaking about improvement within are absolutely right. But you need high quality coaches in the right positions to continue to develop the list you have as well as hold groups of players to a high level of accountability. For example, I think we miss Macca more than some may think. The way that he would keep our midfielders accountable, the respect he commanded.The little things. It spills out onto the training track, keeps everyone on high alert and helps maintain high standards and good habits. This is one of my major concerns when it comes to Goody. How difficult is he to work under? This off-season is just as important to bring high quality assistants in and around Goodwin to really pick-up the slack. A lot to unpack and address really. Hopefully the board really get to work on this.

Unfortunately, given what's at stake for our club going forward (and Simon Goodwin as coach), overthinking it is a necessity this off-season. If Brown is so valuable as you say, why is it that North are so happy to push him out the door? And why are we not hearing that half the sides in the AFL are after him? And to answer your question regarding North's ability to hit up Brown allowing him to kick bags over the years, my answer is yes. They had a far better balance of attributes through their midfield and ther inside 50 retention rate was far better than ours and has been over the past 3-4 years. I implore supporters to read this article: https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/afl/more-news/footys-best-and-worst-attacking-kicks-why-melbourne-mids-should-be-embarrassed/news-story/48a26705d7c39f296539f4e663d45c07 I don't dispute that Brown is a super forward when the game is on his terms. My argument is that we'd have to drastically change our entire style/game-plan, personnel through the middle, forward-line setup and gameplan to give Brown the opportunity to play to his strengths. Goodwin has recruited and drafted a team to play a certain way. We have a gameplan closer to Richmonds than West Coast. We have a number of areas we need to address. A key forward is definitely one, but Brown is not the key forward for us imo.

Excited to head along to Traeger today to cheer on Santa Teresa in the Central Dessert Regional Council Division grand final. If you're missing footy this weekend you can catch a live-stream here, with the under 18s decider already underway: Further info here: https://www.aflnt.com.au/news/2020/family-friends-and-freakishly-good-footballers-to-finish-the-2020-tio-cafl-season?fbclid=IwAR2BvoFCSX1QgwijcSbqItvknrpo3VNogrgFN0J8yks29Sjb6PaklgC31Eo

I disagree entirely. He tries to go for the first possession. That's not defensive, that's attacking. Not only is Oliver our best clearance player, leading Jack by 38 clearances (with only one more game played than Jack), Oliver is also our best defensive player, leading our tackle count by 25 over Jack and by 65 in pressure acts. But Jack's our best defensive midfielder and Oliver is the ball winner? Oliver does both to an extraordinarily high standard and is more valuable than Jack at both. Viney should only be playing the defensive role if he's ever rolling through the midfield. Outside of the St Kilda game, where he very obviously had a job to do in the second half of that game on Steele, he's played predominantly, IMV, as an attacking mid who tackles.

No, that's the role he plays, especially in stoppages. He plays as the defensive midfielder, and he's pretty much the only one who does in our team. He is really good at taking out opposition midfielders in stoppages and creating space for the others to win the ball in. As a result, he's probably the most important player in our midfield. We have many ball winners, like Oliver, Petracca and Brayshaw, so if one of them misses then they are replaced by another. But if Viney misses then the defensive midfielder replacements are far inferior, like Vandenberg or Melksham, although Sparrow did some in the middle of the year. Viney currently is a defensive midfielder, and an exceptionally good one. That's why he does so well in best and fairests because his role, whilst not well understood, is extremely important and he's extremely good at it.

Yeah, nah. Me thinks not, Gus, Jack, James, Clayton & Christian are pretty tight and why would you want to split them up???

Agree! Bargain-basement, big Ben Brown booting bags. Beautiful.

To see Jack in any other colours other than red and blue would be very hard to stomach - particularly Geelong. To those who think he’s too much of what we already have and stifles our game well, I‘d really like to see a plausible analysis of your thinking.

No. It was Preuss and nth pick 62 for Dom Tyson. We got Marty Hore. Preuss really didn’t cost us anything!!!

So much for all the people who repeatedly say Salem is slow. #Salomyths

I agree with the OP's general argument. Every year we look to trades and the draft as the way to fix our problems. IMO, and this is something I've said before, the single biggest change we could make to our performance would be to find a proper tall forward to supplement Weideman. On our current list that would be TMac. If it's not TMac, it's unlikely to be Brown or Jackson given neither of them are a true stay at home marking forward. Maybe it could be Petty. Whoever it is, if someone was good enough to demand opposition attention it would give us a different dynamic forward of centre and relieve some of the significant pressure on Weideman to be the one to lead, create marking contests, haul in marks, and kick goals. If we had had half of our 2018 TMac this year we'd have won more games and made finals, I'm confident. Other than that, I agree with those who say Oliver's improvement doesn't need to be his kicking but, instead, needs to be the way he exits stoppages. Reduced frequency of in-close handpasses and increased running clear of tacklers makes him, and us, much better. Also agree with Fritsch. If he can work on his set shot goal kicking and become accurate, that will make a significant difference.

We must be the greatest off season "improvers" in the history of sport.

Totally agree with your notion that the team we have now can go all the way. Obviously there is a lot of improvement required, but this should be expected in an AFL environment. I see that there are several issues for us to work on: fitness - burgess will hopefully take them to another level next season (changing to 16min quarters didn’t help). We looked a lot better this year to previous seasons and another preseason to our younger players will help immensely. Strength - coupled with the above (fitness) I see that certain players look like they have skinny arms for the roles they are playing - Weid, Lever, Gawn, and to a lesser extent fritsch, melksham both McDonald’s, Oliver. These players need more strength in their positions to be able to wrestle/rag doll/move their opponents. kicking - nail on the head getting fritsch to be a dead eye ?. However it is across the board that our players need to kick better and have different options to be able to draw upon when in different situations, i.e. a low bullet when kicking on the 45 to the corridor Footy smarts - this has been touched on in other threads, but we have the best ruckman and the best midfielders, but we don’t have the best clearance rates or scores from clearances..... if this clicks then our inside f50’s skyrocket and we can set up defensively (the wall) to get repeat entries. I think we also need to pressure opposition kick outs more, teams walk it to the wing to easily for my liking. To achieve this we might need to recruit new assistant coaches. Our current crop are relatively inexperienced (Plapp, Chaplin), would like to see Rawlings back in the fold and possibly a Brad Green/Adam Yze. I think we made some good in roads in a very difficult season. Any changes list wise will be to the 25-44 player range. A another forward would be great, but I liked the side with Weid and Jackson. We are still a young side. It’s not doom and gloom yet.

Was a junk piece of reporting which he will not be held accountable for.

Agree...I wouldn't sell the farm for a forward yet. Fritsch kicking straight is 40 goals a year and Weid is also a 40 goal player. Add in LJ and Pickett with 20 each and you have a reasonable forward line. Is Petty capable of adding twenty and driving the ball forward... I have no idea My concern is whether we will get enough goals out of Hannan, AVB and Melksham. Would be good if Oliver could get a few more a la Dangerfield

I've seen enough 'rebuilds' in my time to know we are long way off needing a rebuild. Our list has plenty of talent that is underperforming as a whole unit.

Please either put each other on ignore or you can both go. I don’t usually do this publicly but I’m sick of you guys all whinging to me about each other.