Time to go Tim Lamb? Should we pursue Graham Wright?

[Little Goffy 13,957]

I did some googling and was a bit surprised to see he'd been with us since 2012.

Basically makes him the architect of our premiership list - pursing the structural players which made our game plan and our glory possible.

No mistaking that there has been a string of misses in the last couple of years, albeit relatively low-cost misses. I suspect trying to find a back-up ruck capable of stepping in full-time if needed while also being content to be 80% forward for potentially years is one of the hardest recruiting tasks there is, especially if you are hoping for that recruit to be a longer term successor to the game's greatest ruckman.

The perception last trade period was that Tim Lamb was simply dealing with too much all at once, between the Petty, Oliver and Grundy kerfuffles on top of the usual trade period nonsense.

Clearly it would be silly to try to bump Lamb on in the handful of weeks between now and trade period this season, so let's see if we can get some transparency on what people expect.

So...

What benchmark in this coming trade period needs to be reached in order for Lamb to re-establish himself as our preferred recruiting / list manager?

[bing181 8,894]

Lots of Hindsight Harry's on here.

People also forget Lamb's role in trading picks to get us the likes of Jackson and Pickett, or more recently Tholstrup (early days, but early signs are OK).

Not to mention his role in actually Managing The List, which is after all his job title - every player we needed to re-sign has, including some on big contracts. 

[Monbon 1,784]

How the hell does a 'List manager' impact on a team's performance??? The role is to choose the best of what's available. In that category, you win some, you lose some. Hindsight is such a 'virtue' on Demonland, all the naysayers are typical armchair experts.

As if two other clubs weren't sucked in by  Scache, as though Lamb is to blame for his inability to impact vigorously. 

More importantly, how can one blame the impacts of injury this year and late last year - forward line decimation - on the List managers and Goodwin? 

I know how: check out Demonland, all Coaching and List management experts - just ask them.

 

Edited Monday at 08:57 by Monbon

[Adam The God 29,292]

I've never had Lamb in the gun, although I will revert to those within the FD that might know better.

I wouldn't mind pursuing Wright as head of footy or CEO, but sounds like he's already locked and loaded at Tassie.

[Cranky Franky 1,814]

2 hours ago, Monbon said:

How the hell does a 'List manager' impact on a team's performance??? The role is to choose the best of what's available. In that category, you win some, you lose some. Hindsight is such a 'virtue' on Demonland, all the naysayers are typical armchair experts.

 

So you don't think a list manager impacts a team's performance. That's an interesting view.

You bang on about hindsight which I would suggest actually means results or outcomes or maybe you don't think list managers need to achieve anything.

3 years of trading disasters while Hawthorn & Geelong top their teams up with clever trading.

[John Demonic 5,484]

Butcher Brad gives Tim Lamb the chop for all the shanks reports John Demonic 16/9

Edited Monday at 11:24 by John Demonic

[Ausrak 17]

Two key factors when assessing players are ability and competitiveness.

The last few years MFC has made mistakes in talent identification.

Once you've recruited players, you also need to develop them.

Unfortunately, no amount of development will help E graders (non-competitive is non-competitive).

It is very rare that a new young player comes in and is an A grader (Caleb Windsor). The others generally start at D until they develop physically and mentally and adjust to the step up to AFL level (speed of the game, team defence, running patterns etc.).

The MFC list needs growth from the D and C graders, and hopefully adds another A grader with its first pick in the 2024 national draft. Losing Angus Brayshaw and Alex Neal-Bullen leaves a void at the top end of the talent list.

Whoever is in charge of recruitment and development, there is a hell of a lot of work to do.
 

No	Name	Rookie	Ability and competitiveness	Notes
11	Gawn, Max		A
1	May, Steven		A
13	Oliver, Clayton		A	Underperformed in 2024 due to well documented issues
5	Petracca, Christian		A	Injured due to Darcy Moore knee
36	Pickett, Kysaiah		A
6	Windsor, Caleb		A
10	Brayshaw, Angus		B	Retired due to Brayden Maynard hit in 2023 finals
15	Langdon, Ed		B
8	Lever, Jake		B
30	Neal-Bullen, Alex		B	Requested trade to Adelaide Football Club
35	Petty, Harrison		B	Underperformed in 2024 due to limited preparation following serious foot injury/surgery
24	Rivers, Trent		B
3	Salem, Christian		B	Underperformed in 2024 due to injuries/lack of continuity
2	van Rooyen, Jacob		B
7	Viney, Jack		B
17	Bowey, Jake		C	Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a B
50	Brown, Ben		C	Long term knee injury. Retired
37	Chandler, Kade		C	Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a B
31	Fritsch, Bayley		C	Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a B (chasing, tackling etc. = competitiveness)
12	Hunter, Lachie		C	Soft tissue injuries. 1 more season left?
25	McDonald, Tom		C	Contracted for 2025. 1 more season left?
4	McVee, Judd	Rookie	C	Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a B
18	Melksham, Jake	Rookie	C	Contracted for 2025. 1 more season left?
29	Smith, Joel		C	Uncontracted. Sport Integrity Australia investigation ongoing?
9	Spargo, Charlie		C	Injured throughout 2024. Fully fit next season?
32	Sparrow, Tom		C	Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a B
42	Turner, Daniel		C	Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a B
41	Brown, Kynan	Rookie	D	Contracted for 2025. Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a C
27	Hore, Marty	Rookie	D	Uncontracted
22	Howes, Blake		D	Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a C
16	Laurie, Bailey		D	Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a C
45	Moniz-Wakefield, Andy	Cat B	D	Contracted for 2025. Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a C
39	Tholstrup, Koltyn		D	Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a C
20	Tomlinson, Adam		D	Unrestricted free agent
40	Woewodin, Taj		D	Needs to keep working hard to try to push up to a C
14	Billings, Jack		E
23	McAdam, Shane		E
19	Schache, Josh		E	Delisted
26	Adams, Jed		U	Untried
44	Kentfield, Luker		U	Contracted for 2025. Untried
43	Farris-White, Kyah	Cat B	U	Untried. Delisted
33	Fullarton, Tom		U	Untried
21	Jefferson, Matthew		U	Untried
38	Sestan, Oliver	Rookie	U	Contracted for 2025. Untried
28	Verrall, Will	Rookie	U	Contracted for 2025. Untried

[WERRIDEE 5,345]

I think trade period is overrated anyway. How many great trade deals are done every year. 1 or 2 the rest are ordinary. We got May but we lost Hogan, we got Lever and lost 2 first rounds we were on the bottom then so that helped. We got Langdon for a second rounder a real win. Tomlinson was a dud free agent. Hunter we got for a low pick and gave us 1 good year. Billings a low pick he given us nothing. McAdam for a second rounder has been a flop. Schache was always a terrible choice never played a good game in his life never should have had 2 years on the list.

I just hope we find an experienced ruckman at trade period that's willing to spend most of his time at Casey.

We have to draft our way out of this mess not trade our way out of it.

Edited Monday at 12:04 by WERRIDEE

[Cranky Franky 1,814]

7 hours ago, WERRIDEE said:

I think trade period is overrated anyway. How many great trade deals are done every year. 1 or 2 the rest are ordinary. We got May but we lost Hogan, we got Lever and lost 2 first rounds we were on the bottom then so that helped. We got Langdon for a second rounder a real win. Tomlinson was a dud free agent. Hunter we got for a low pick and gave us 1 good year. Billings a low pick he given us nothing. McAdam for a second rounder has been a flop. Schache was always a terrible choice never played a good game in his life never should have had 2 years on the list.

I just hope we find an experienced ruckman at trade period that's willing to spend most of his time at Casey.

We have to draft our way out of this mess not trade our way out of it.

Really silly posting Werridee. Drafting and Trading are totally different.

We have totally stuffed up our trading for 3 consecutive years.

Go through the Hawthorn & Geelong senior lists & you will find that smart player trading is behind the finals success of both Clubs.

[BoBo 2,912]

Who was the last player we traded in that was a win for us?

[Kent 2,856]

4 minutes ago, BoBo said:

Who was the last player we traded in that was a win for us?

ed langdon

[Jaded No More 67,600]

52 minutes ago, Kent said:

ed langdon

Ben Brown too

[BAMF 4,078]

Just saw in the contracts thread that hunter is contracted for 2025.

Time for Lamb to go. 

 

[Monbon 1,784]

15 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

So you don't think a list manager impacts a team's performance. That's an interesting view.

You bang on about hindsight which I would suggest actually means results or outcomes or maybe you don't think list managers need to achieve anything.

3 years of trading disasters while Hawthorn & Geelong top their teams up with clever trading.

Pot calls Kettle Black: so it isn't hindsight that calls Hawthorn and Geelong clever trading? 

Cranky, I've hardly ever agreed with you, and pwobabwy never will. 

[Deespicable 2,671]

What gets me with Tim Lamb is that he doesn't seem to be across things and has made some major howlers since 2021 when he was feted as our guru along with JT?

In June 2022 he agrees to a seven-year extension for Oliver. Yes he was worth big money based on four B&Fs and being one of the games greats and I am sure his manager wanted that length of deal, but we have since read that Oliver had infuriated teammates by that stage already - Gawn and Goody have alluded to this with comments about him becoming a better person this year in the wake of his public shaming. I don't expect Lamb to know all of Oliver's personal life, but I am sure the players knew he was having issues. I get that long deals are all the rage, but at what point is a list manager expected to read the tealeaves and offer just a five-year extension - that is also a very long period of time and doesn't have the same potential to cripple a club for so long? 

We only recently found out Lachie Hunter was actually given a three-year deal when he signed in Nov 2022 - yes we got him for a pittance and yes he gave us a left-foot wingman that we needed but yes he had some significant personal issues that should have raised red herrings when it came to length of deal. Would his manager have said no to a two-year deal - highly unlikely given we were one of the few clubs willing to take him and his salary on.

In the same draft year of 2022 he added a bargain - Josh Schache - who the Dogs were happy to offload for all his talent after realising that he was a nice bloke, but not quite tough enough for the current high-pressure game. The move was somewhat understandable given we'd just lost Jackson and decided we couldn't afford paying the Weid big money anymore with Grundy coming in, but it showed a lack of awareness about where the game was heading.

I don't have any major problem with us signing Jack Billings for two years. Yes Billings was a risk because the game's intensity may have moved past him. But his skill level and the fact that he cost us nothing, but his money outlay, meant it was worth a risk. Collingwood wanted him too. Billings may well have been more of JT's call anyway, given he liked him as a junior, but Lamb would have had the final say.

But last year Lamb added two more years to the contracts of both Jefferson and Adams. I can sort of understand Jefferson because we are locked in on his potential, even it fails to materierlise, but two more for Adams? What has he shown so far to warrant it and which club is keen on luring him. If he doesn't make major inroads next year, we will be looking to delist him early. 

On top of that there are now nine former Demons - Jackson, Hogan, Bedford, Harmes, Howe, Baker, Jordon, Wagner, Grundy - playing seniors for other clubs with ANB about to join them. That's a lot of exodus without nailing much in return via the list manager - so far only Langdon and Ben Brown (before injury got him again in 2022) have been good additions. 

It is for that reason myself and others here are very wary with what Tim Lamb does and my series on our draft/trade periods highlighted that while JT has shown himself to be an astute judge, sadly the same cannot be said of Lamb.

We enter another trade period hopeful of wise calls - but names will come up and I am wary of Lamb's decision making.

Tim Membrey's name has been mentioned and yes the 30-year-old is coming to the end of his career and the Saints will be happy to move him on. He is a lovely kick, but he is only 188cm tall and has always struggled to be that target down the line. He is a third tall and leads well - the same role that Turner is playing and Fritter can play if needed. If we are so desperate to add an out-of-contract tall forward, wouldn't we be better to look at someone like Freo's Matt Taberner who is of a similar age (31) but is actually 197cm tall and whilst he might end up injured a lot of the time like Brown, he at least he can play the down the line role when fit. He kicked five in the WAFL prelim final. 

Matt Kennedy and Matt Owies name's are being mentioned here now as well. But both are being allowed to go because they are not quite quick enough for the modern hokball era. I'd be happy with either providing us more depth, but the Blues will want a second rounder for them and I'd rather we use that on a kid as JT is more likely to get it right. Clancy Dennis will be around that pick, not to mention possibly Ollie Hannaford. Young is one we should consider given his height, but I think he, like Schache, is regarded as being too nice to make it. 

[Moonshadow 17,467]

Devils advocate for a second...

What if Tim Lamb has been told by the coaches to target certain players and he's got all or most of them?

After all, it's not just Lamb that makes the decisions or does the luring

Just saying...

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 6,521]

8 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

Really silly posting Werridee. Drafting and Trading are totally different.

We have totally stuffed up our trading for 3 consecutive years.

Go through the Hawthorn & Geelong senior lists & you will find that smart player trading is behind the finals success of both Clubs.

We've had no money to trade the appropriate players in, there is no excuses now.

We traded in Grundy and gave up after a year when we really needed a key power forward.

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:31 by YesitwasaWin4theAges

[Roost it far 7,358]

Personally I'd of liked the club to be braver. Offer something to get something in return. We have to get picks before Tasmania and we need to press the top end of the ladder before our stars fade. Exciting times indeed. Not sure replacing Lamb is the answer atm but I can see changes over the next few years across the whole club.

[Sir Why You Little 36,585]

5 hours ago, BoBo said:

Who was the last player we traded in that was a win for us?

Langdon

[BoBo 2,912]

7 hours ago, Kent said:

ed langdon

Yeah you’re right, I was wondering if there was someone I might’ve forgotten later than him.

So no trade wins for the 21,22,23,24 seasons.

Eeeeesh, that’s a long time.

 

 

[whatwhat say what 22,059]

8 minutes ago, BoBo said:

Yeah you’re right, I was wondering if there was someone I might’ve forgotten later than him.

So no trade wins for the 21,22,23,24 seasons.

Eeeeesh, that’s a long time.

 

 

ben brown in 2021 was integral to our premiership

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,310]

6 hours ago, BAMF said:

Just saw in the contracts thread that hunter is contracted for 2025.

Time for Lamb to go. 

 

Hunter on the non Langdon wing for round 0?

[mo64 5,474]

1 minute ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Hunter on the non Langdon wing for round 0?

Windsor has that sewn up. Hunter will spend most of the year at Casey.

[bing181 8,894]

14 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Windsor has that sewn up. Hunter will spend most of the year at Casey.

They may start to try Windsor more on-ball.

[WERRIDEE 5,345]

11 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

Really silly posting Werridee. Drafting and Trading are totally different.

We have totally stuffed up our trading for 3 consecutive years.

Go through the Hawthorn & Geelong senior lists & you will find that smart player trading is behind the finals success of both Clubs.

Rubbish. Hawthorn have been on the bottom for a while. It's drafting that has put them up there. Geelong picked up Cameron that's it if not for him they would be near the bottom.