BB made a difference

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

The thing with Brown is when he goes for a pack mark hes 50/50 which is way better than Weid. His arms are so long and he makes the football look like an AusKick ball with his vice like grip. He also didnt miss that snap over his shoulder in the first quarter by much. Could have easily kicked a couple.

He stays.

[Red But Mostly Blue 3,793]

A solid return - about as good as we could have hoped/expected.

Was present around the ground, contested well, drew defenders (!!) and delivered nicely into the 50 (he lowers his eyes!!)

10 disposals and no goals is not what we want from a KPF, but it's his first game back - he should have been paid 1 or 2 marks as well, but the umps were probably still looking for holding the man decisions to pay against us.

He'll gain confidence from the game and will be better for the run. He'll kick a couple against the Hawks. As we gain momentum, so shall BB. He'll be a missing piece for the finals!

[Tricky 337]

8 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

There is no stat for that. BTW were Demonlanders asking the same question when Weideman was in the side?

Brown was ok. Not good.

 

I know, that was kind of my point...(sorry for the facetious post). 

I think the difference to the forward line was stark - he stirs things up, something I haven't seen from Weid. Niether does Weid have the career scorecard that BB has - which I believe weighs on defenders. Stats do NOT tell the story here.

Since Weid didn't play for the past 2 weeks either, I think that comparison is moot anyway.

On your other point, I absolutely agree that the midfield lifted. Was great to see.

[DeeZee 6,753]

I like Weed and hope he gets back to some good form, but this year Brenny Brown has performed better when in the side, and that’s mainly because he is clunking more marks and his leading patterns are better and more reliable .

The other forwards can get out the back and have more room to move as well as less pressure with Ben matching up on the best tall back.

Edited July 9, 2021 by DeeZee

[Jaded No More 58,088]

Anyone who judges Brown purely on goals kicked doesn’t understand modern footy. It’s so much more about presenting opportunities to bring the ball to ground. Is it any wonder Kossi had his best game for a month last night? Or that Tmac actually could take marks on the lead rather than trying to beat 18 opponents? 
For a team so reliant on structures, the mind boggles that fans can’t see how his presence completely changes our structure for the better. 

[Tricky 337]

3 minutes ago, Jaded said:

Anyone who judges Brown purely on goals kicked doesn’t understand modern footy. It’s so much more about presenting opportunities to bring the ball to ground. Is it any wonder Kossi had his best game for a month last night? Or that Tmac actually could take marks on the lead rather than trying to beat 18 opponents? 
For a team so reliant on structures, the mind boggles that fans can’t see how his presence completely changes our structure for the better. 

Absolutely agree Jaded. "Playing a role" means exactly that. I'm less worried about fans that don't see it and more worried about why neither Weid or BB played the last 2 weeks. I need to get over it, obviously, but sheesh.  

[picket fence 15,234]

35 minutes ago, Wadda We Sing said:

The thing with Brown is when he goes for a pack mark hes 50/50 which is way better than Weid. His arms are so long and he makes the football look like an AusKick ball with his vice like grip. He also didnt miss that snap over his shoulder in the first quarter by much. Could have easily kicked a couple.

He stays.

Definately stays. Weeds could kick 10 for CASEY and I still would prefer Brown. Was influential last night and was synergetic to team cohesion. Could easily have kicked a couple and will only get better. Commited his body in the 1st Quarter signifying intent and I reckon Goody would have been happy with his game last night!

Edited July 9, 2021 by picket fence

[Fat Tony 4,433]

Melbourne Goals vs Port

Jackson from a set shot after a high mark. Brown was in the pack but it was kicked on his head and Jackson had the sit. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

TMac on the run from a Jackson handball. Brown had no impact.

Spargo wins a high free and kicks a snap. Brown had no impact.

Petracca out the back of the Port press. Port spoiled into the centre of the ground and we got a counterattack goal. Brown had no impact.

Kossie long ping. Brown was looking for a handball receive from Fritsch, who fumbled and recovered to give the handball to Pickett, who kicked a ripper. Brown had no impact.

Petracca’s snap. Kick long to Brown, who runs under a long ball but draws a contest. Picket gets a touch on the marking contest which spills over the back. Petracca kicks a fantastic snap under pressure. Brown drew his defender and was loosely involved in this one but really this was due to Petracca’s brilliance.

Fritsch’s dribbling snap. The ball got out the back of Port’s press after TMac won a beautiful contest and kicked long to Fritsch, who took a juggling mark and snapped on his right foot. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

Pickett one hand mark and 50m. Oliver wins a clearance at half back and does a one-two with Langdon and kicks long to half forward. TMac and Kossie in the contest and Pickett takes a juggling mark and gets pummelled and wins 50m to the goal square. Brown had no impact.

TMac from a mark and set shot after a clean centre clearance. Brown had no impact.

TMac snap after a deliberate out of bounds free, he has his kick smothered and gets a handball back and kicks a curling snap. Brown had no impact.

Petracca joe the goose. Long kick to Jackson at full forward. Roved by Jordon and Petracca gets rewarded for tremendous gut running. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

Kossie 50m bomb. Long kick down the line from the wing.  Brown was in the area but could not get to the contest. Ball is dropped by Port defenders around Fritsch. Ball spills to Pickett who kicks a ripper. Brown had no impact.

[titan_uranus 22,443]

2 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Melbourne Goals vs Port

Jackson from a set shot after a high mark. Brown was in the pack but it was kicked on his head and Jackson had the sit. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

TMac on the run from a Jackson handball. Brown had no impact.

Spargo wins a high free and kicks a snap. Brown had no impact.

Petracca out the back of the Port press. Port spoiled into the centre of the ground and we got a counterattack goal. Brown had no impact.

Kossie long ping. Brown was looking for a handball receive from Fritsch, who fumbled and recovered to give the handball to Pickett, who kicked a ripper. Brown had no impact.

Petracca’s snap. Kick long to Brown, who runs under a long ball but draws a contest. Picket gets a touch on the marking contest which spills over the back. Petracca kicks a fantastic snap under pressure. Brown drew his defender and was loosely involved in this one but really this was due to Petracca’s brilliance.

Fritsch’s dribbling snap. The ball got out the back of Port’s press after TMac won a beautiful contest and kicked long to Fritsch, who took a juggling mark and snapped on his right foot. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

Pickett one hand mark and 50m. Oliver wins a clearance at half back and does a one-two with Langdon and kicks long to half forward. TMac and Kossie in the contest and Pickett takes a juggling mark and gets pummelled and wins 50m to the goal square. Brown had no impact.

TMac from a mark and set shot after a clean centre clearance. Brown had no impact.

TMac snap after a deliberate out of bounds free, he has his kick smothered and gets a handball back and kicks a curling snap. Brown had no impact.

Petracca joe the goose. Long kick to Jackson at full forward. Roved by Jordon and Petracca gets rewarded for tremendous gut running. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

Kossie 50m bomb. Long kick down the line from the wing.  Brown was in the area but could not get to the contest. Ball is dropped by Port defenders around Fritsch. Ball spills to Pickett who kicks a ripper. Brown had no impact.

Straight away I know your analysis is incorrect because you've got Brown down for no involvement in any goal, but he had three score involvements.

But it's a shallow analysis that doesn't dig deep enough.

For example:

This week: TMac 86% TOG (Brown 75%).

Last week: TMac 97% TOG.

Maybe TMac's ability to rest helped him star?

[Roost it far 6,185]

I’d say all at the club knew we’d be better with Brown in the side. He was unfit and injured on arrival. It’s taken this long for the coaches and Burgess to get him to a point where he’s ready to help us win a Premiership. He’s not going out unless injured. 

[sue 8,441]

16 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Melbourne Goals vs Port

Jackson from a set shot after a high mark. Brown was in the pack but it was kicked on his head and Jackson had the sit. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

TMac on the run from a Jackson handball. Brown had no impact.

Spargo wins a high free and kicks a snap. Brown had no impact.

Petracca out the back of the Port press. Port spoiled into the centre of the ground and we got a counterattack goal. Brown had no impact.

Kossie long ping. Brown was looking for a handball receive from Fritsch, who fumbled and recovered to give the handball to Pickett, who kicked a ripper. Brown had no impact.

Petracca’s snap. Kick long to Brown, who runs under a long ball but draws a contest. Picket gets a touch on the marking contest which spills over the back. Petracca kicks a fantastic snap under pressure. Brown drew his defender and was loosely involved in this one but really this was due to Petracca’s brilliance.

Fritsch’s dribbling snap. The ball got out the back of Port’s press after TMac won a beautiful contest and kicked long to Fritsch, who took a juggling mark and snapped on his right foot. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

Pickett one hand mark and 50m. Oliver wins a clearance at half back and does a one-two with Langdon and kicks long to half forward. TMac and Kossie in the contest and Pickett takes a juggling mark and gets pummelled and wins 50m to the goal square. Brown had no impact.

TMac from a mark and set shot after a clean centre clearance. Brown had no impact.

TMac snap after a deliberate out of bounds free, he has his kick smothered and gets a handball back and kicks a curling snap. Brown had no impact.

Petracca joe the goose. Long kick to Jackson at full forward. Roved by Jordon and Petracca gets rewarded for tremendous gut running. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

Kossie 50m bomb. Long kick down the line from the wing.  Brown was in the area but could not get to the contest. Ball is dropped by Port defenders around Fritsch. Ball spills to Pickett who kicks a ripper. Brown had no impact.

This analysis overlooks the 'assist' of a forward player #1 doing a good kick to another forward who marks inside 50 who then misses the goal.  Hardly the fault of player #1.

[Fat Tony 4,433]

6 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Straight away I know your analysis is incorrect because you've got Brown down for no involvement in any goal, but he had three score involvements.

But it's a shallow analysis that doesn't dig deep enough.

For example:

This week: TMac 86% TOG (Brown 75%).

Last week: TMac 97% TOG.

Maybe TMac's ability to rest helped him star?

Yes Brown had 3 score involvements but they were all behinds.

I am not sure if rushed scores are included as Score Involvements, but I am guessing they are and that one SI was when he kicked off the ground early in the game and it was rushed and another SI when his snap from the pocket was also rushed.

As I said earlier, Brown was OK but not good. The key to the win was our amazing defence and Petracca, Kossie and TMac starring. IMO there is no clear evidence that we would not have won just as easily had we gone in unchanged.

I also reckon TMac was pretty good last week but for his goal kicking. Perhaps the extra rest helped last night? Or maybe he just fluffed his chances against GWS? There is no way of knowing with such a small sample size.

[leave it to deever 15,618]

1 hour ago, Fat Tony said:

There is no stat for that. BTW were Demonlanders asking the same question when Weideman was in the side?

Brown was ok. Not good.

 

Given hes only  played 3 senior games for the year,   I would argue he was ok to good. Next game will be very interesting.

[Fat Tony 4,433]

9 minutes ago, sue said:

This analysis overlooks the 'assist' of a forward player #1 doing a good kick to another forward who marks inside 50 who then misses the goal.  Hardly the fault of player #1.

Yes it does overlook this and Brown had 3 score involvements but they were all behinds. Two of them rushed from his own shots at goal.

Score Involvements vs Port

 

10 TMac, Petracca

6 Fritsch, Gawn, Oliver, Spargo

5 Jackson, Langdon, Pickett

4 Salem

3 Brayshaw, Brown, Hibberd, Hunt, May, Jordon

2 Harmes, ANB

1 Lever, Rivers

[titan_uranus 22,443]

16 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Yes Brown had 3 score involvements but they were all behinds.

I am not sure if rushed scores are included as Score Involvements, but I am guessing they are and that one SI was when he kicked off the ground early in the game and it was rushed and another SI when his snap from the pocket was also rushed.

As I said earlier, Brown was OK but not good. The key to the win was our amazing defence and Petracca, Kossie and TMac starring. IMO there is no clear evidence that we would not have won just as easily had we gone in unchanged.

I also reckon TMac was pretty good last week but for his goal kicking. Perhaps the extra rest helped last night? Or maybe he just fluffed his chances against GWS? There is no way of knowing with such a small sample size.

Fair point re: the behinds.

Yes, it's only one game so it's too early to draw conclusions, but analysing each goal the way you have to conclude Brown had no impact in any of them is shallow.

It's very easy to say we won because of our defence and a few players starring but we all know our defence isn't enough each week or we'd be 16-0. This week we looked better in our forward half than we did last week and whilst Brown clearly is not the one and only reason we looked better, it's equally too simplistic and shallow to conclude that because he wasn't in the video grabs you've watched that he had no positive impact.

But only time can tell if he's going to make a long-term difference.

[whatwhat say what 19,073]

brown blocked his defender from impacting the contest allowing jackson the free run to mark (and goal)

[1964_2 2,357]

53 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Melbourne Goals vs Port

Jackson from a set shot after a high mark. Brown was in the pack but it was kicked on his head and Jackson had the sit. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

TMac on the run from a Jackson handball. Brown had no impact.

Spargo wins a high free and kicks a snap. Brown had no impact.

Petracca out the back of the Port press. Port spoiled into the centre of the ground and we got a counterattack goal. Brown had no impact.

Kossie long ping. Brown was looking for a handball receive from Fritsch, who fumbled and recovered to give the handball to Pickett, who kicked a ripper. Brown had no impact.

Petracca’s snap. Kick long to Brown, who runs under a long ball but draws a contest. Picket gets a touch on the marking contest which spills over the back. Petracca kicks a fantastic snap under pressure. Brown drew his defender and was loosely involved in this one but really this was due to Petracca’s brilliance.

Fritsch’s dribbling snap. The ball got out the back of Port’s press after TMac won a beautiful contest and kicked long to Fritsch, who took a juggling mark and snapped on his right foot. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

Pickett one hand mark and 50m. Oliver wins a clearance at half back and does a one-two with Langdon and kicks long to half forward. TMac and Kossie in the contest and Pickett takes a juggling mark and gets pummelled and wins 50m to the goal square. Brown had no impact.

TMac from a mark and set shot after a clean centre clearance. Brown had no impact.

TMac snap after a deliberate out of bounds free, he has his kick smothered and gets a handball back and kicks a curling snap. Brown had no impact.

Petracca joe the goose. Long kick to Jackson at full forward. Roved by Jordon and Petracca gets rewarded for tremendous gut running. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

Kossie 50m bomb. Long kick down the line from the wing.  Brown was in the area but could not get to the contest. Ball is dropped by Port defenders around Fritsch. Ball spills to Pickett who kicks a ripper. Brown had no impact.

Watch the replay mate - you have missed the value Brown provided to the structure last night - a self-less game, that benefited just about all our other forwards. 

We have found our key fwd for finals. 
 

[Sir Why You Little 34,566]

Brown’s score assists may have resulted in 3 points. 
but his presence on the ground made the forward line function a lot better. 
Defenders had to stay with him. 
 

Wish he had played last week!!

Edited July 9, 2021 by Sir Why You Little

[Big Demon 197]

Tom was fantastic last night with BBB in. He is a dangerous target and competes which brought Kosi into the game as well.

[1964_2 2,357]

28 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Yes Brown had 3 score involvements but they were all behinds.

I am not sure if rushed scores are included as Score Involvements, but I am guessing they are and that one SI was when he kicked off the ground early in the game and it was rushed and another SI when his snap from the pocket was also rushed.

As I said earlier, Brown was OK but not good. The key to the win was our amazing defence and Petracca, Kossie and TMac starring. IMO there is no clear evidence that we would not have won just as easily had we gone in unchanged.

I also reckon TMac was pretty good last week but for his goal kicking. Perhaps the extra rest helped last night? Or maybe he just fluffed his chances against GWS? There is no way of knowing with such a small sample size.

Go back and have a look at how our fwd line functions with Weid in (this year and last) - he clogs up space, doesn’t know when or how to lead, doesn’t assist other fwds, and doesn’t bring the ball to ground as much as BB did. 

weid could learn a lot from watching Brown’s game last night. 
 

[58er 5,608]

1 minute ago, 1964_2 said:

Go back and have a look at how our fwd line functions with Weid in (this year and last) - he clogs up space, doesn’t know when or how to lead, doesn’t assist other fwds, and doesn’t bring the ball to ground as much as BB did. 

weid could learn a lot from watching Brown’s game last night. 
 

And BBB genuinely needs a No 1 defender on him which means that Tmac Maxy Fritta and Jacko are left with 2 3 and 4 defenders!!!

Thinking  about Weed he likes to move around more and as second ruck  / Ruck rover he gets involved nicely in the play. He could be a Jacko replacement if needed rather than a static KPF that clogs up the system and puts pressure on himself and others. 

[Smokey 4,137]

2 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

There is no stat for that. BTW were Demonlanders asking the same question when Weideman was in the side?

Brown was ok. Not good.

 

I think your scope in which Ben can impact the game is limited to the very tradition metrics on which we measure a key forward i.e. goals, marks i50 etc 

If you look beyond those traditional metrics you'll see multiple ways BB positively impacted the game 

[hardtack 10,127]

No one thinks that having Brown in the forward line has led to the mids kicking into the forwards with more confidence?  The difference between this week and last week against GWS was chalk and cheese.

[1964_2 2,357]

1 minute ago, hardtack said:

No one thinks that having Brown in the forward line has led to the mids kicking into the forwards with more confidence?  The difference between this week and last week against GWS was chalk and cheese.

Definitely part of the value he provides. By working well with the other fwds (ie leading at the right time to the right part of ground) - it definitely makes it easier for the mids to move the ball forward with confidence. 
 

[DeeZone 7,795]

3 hours ago, roy11 said:

Funny one with Ben Brown if you look at Twitter you see some very different reviews. 

Positive

• Ben Brown was great tonight. This is the forward structure we must go with from now on
• Forward structure looks so much better with Ben Brown in the side. Also helps McDonald and Fritsch taking the 2nd/3rd best defender.
• Ben Brown didnt kick a goal but he played a bloody good game. No intercept marks.
• Do not drop Ben Brown again this year. In the side. Makes everyone better
• Ben Brown has had a really good game
• We look so much better with Ben Brown.
• Ben Brown has been perfect for our structure. Ive been pretty pleased with how we’re playing
• No goals so far but Ben Brown’s definitely been useful tonight structurally for Melbourne
• Ben Brown may not be credited with a score and still will have played a fantastic game. Didn't see this coming
• Melbourne much better side with Ben Brown

Negative

• Ben Brown getting too much praise, I thought he was garbage tonight. Ran under the ball on so many occasions, I thought he would have learnt by now
• Ben brown offers nothing
• Ben Brown is done at AFL Level
• I’ve seen mountains move faster than Ben Brown.
• Ben Brown is finished
• Ben Brown is not an AFL level Senior Player.
• Not sure Ben Brown is a seniors footballer anymore. Really fallen off
• But didn’t Ben Brown make Dixon look good
• Funny how a mediocre performance by Ben Brown. Until half time being classed as a great contribution If he was at North and had kicked 3 until half time wouldn't rate a mention

Just shows how differently people see the game, I think those of us who hunger for a strong structure and hate seeing the enemy taking intercept marks in front of our goals loved his effect on the game whereas those that expect Ben to win the game off his boot thought that he was poor.!!!!