CHANGES: Rd 12 vs Collingwood

[whatwhat say what 19,091]

t mac's kicking for goal action is so reminiscent of plugger lockett - straight at the goal, high kick thru action

when he's on, he looks fantastic

[buck_nekkid 5,496]

Interesting there is little love for Harley to be shoehorned back in to the team....

[RodGrinter14 19]

1 hour ago, Dannyz said:

In what sense has Tomlinson "struggled" as a key defender? Has he bad a bag kicked on him or been thoroughly beaten? I haven't seen it. 

Furthermore, Langdon aside, he's the only MFC player I see regularly receive the ball with some space ahead of him. Stays in the team for mine. 

Yep - he stays, but as a wingman. Larkey kicked two on him in the first 10 minutes of the game before we were forced to move him off him. Both pretty average efforts. Didn't look like a defender.  

[Macca 16,173]

We need our best 14 or 15 players playing well and the rest could play to specific roles rather than be looked upon as possible standouts.

For instance AVB could play because of the physicality and aggression that he brings or Jones plays because of his experience.  T-Mac could play in the hope that he rediscovers his best form whilst fulfilling a role as a utility.

But none of the last 6 or 7 players picked will be difference makers so fulfilling a role therefore can kick in instead.   And despite Goodwin saying that we're going to pick our best side I believe that players do have to be managed with all these short breaks. 

Gawn may not come up but if he does then it might be T-Mac or Tomlinson for the wing position.  Both can probably do ok without any large expectations attached.  Either/or.

Viney plays if fit but I reckon we'll see a more even spread of minutes for all our midfielders ... some might rest forward or back or on the bench.  Brayshaw rediscovering his form means the selectors would be loathe to put him back on a wing

The bloke we need to get playing well again is Harmes.  A tagging role and/or more midfield minutes.  A run-with role?

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Macca

[rjay 23,925]

1 minute ago, Macca said:

Gawn may not come up but if he does then it might be T-Mac

I think Tommy is done 'Macca'...

Runs like he is stuck in the tram tracks, no sideways movement.

Not that he had much in the first place but what ever he did have is gone now.

3 minutes ago, Macca said:

The bloke we need to get playing well again is Harmes.  A tagging role and/or more midfield minutes.  A run-with role?

 

I think he needs someone like Sidebottom to run him back into form...

[WERRIDEE 5,218]

22 hours ago, M_9 said:

Talk of TMac moving to the back line is simply pointless. It will never happen.

We've given up, in effect, three first round draft picks to get Lever and May.
We have Tomlinson who could play as a tall backman. The FD like Omac.

Last point: Tmac hasn't played on the back line for, at least, 4 years.

Wrong he played 1 game down back last year against Richmond to find form and kept Lynch to 1 goal.

[Demon Dynasty 15,560]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Would not be surprised if they rest Jackson this week.

Possible after a forward/ruck stint but then there's the 6 day break Dazzle.

As an old warhorse i would get the managed bit on 6 days or less but surely a young colt can fully recover in 4 to 5? Hoping the 6 days will suffice. 

Sometimes wonder if we let science get in the way of common sense at times now.

[Macca 16,173]

3 minutes ago, rjay said:

I think Tommy is done 'Macca'...

Runs like he is stuck in the tram tracks, no sideways movement.

Not that he had much in the first place but what ever he did have is gone now.

I think he needs someone like Sidebottom to run him back into form...

You left out 'or Tomlinson' on the wing rjay. 

I haven't seen much in Tomlinson either and that was the thrust of my argument.  So either/or without any great expectations

Again,  our best 15 players need to perform and neither Tomlinson or T-Mac are best 15.  

We've probably got about 15 who could fill the last 7 spots.  It might only be 5 spots if 17 are assured of a game.  I've just gone with 15 as a roundabout figure.

 

[Demon Dynasty 15,560]

8 minutes ago, rjay said:

I think he needs someone like Sidebottom to run him back into form...

[DEE fence 4,505]

1 hour ago, buck_nekkid said:

Interesting there is little love for Harley to be shoehorned back in to the team....

I was thinking about this as well, I was wondering if he broke some sort of team rule last game? He did look like he was 'choosing' when to go. On the other hand every club is racking up injuries, if we sneak into the 8 then his silk might be a perfect fit.

That said, I don't think anyone outside the selection committee has a grip on the best 22, we have Tmac, Sparrow, Rivers, Hunt, Omac, AVB, Bennell, the great man Jones, Spargo, ANB, Jackson, Tomlinson, Hannan, Hore, Brown, and Lockhart all with reasonable arguments to be in the best 22, and it being very hard to draw a line through any of them because of the collapse of the VFL.  

Personally I think alot of flexibility has been built into the team, and apart from the where do you play Brayshaw saga, it's a good place for the club to be.

[loges 6,097]

1 hour ago, buck_nekkid said:

Interesting there is little love for Harley to be shoehorned back in to the team....

Probably because he hasn't done much his past 2 games

[Go the Biff 3,138]

2 hours ago, buck_nekkid said:

Interesting there is little love for Harley to be shoehorned back in to the team....

Spargo did everything Harley didn't do against Adelaide which I believe led to HB getting dropped and why Spargo should hold his place.

HB looked slow and tentative and I'm wondering if he hasn't got full confidence in his body.

For me he's already exceeded any expectations I had of him for 2020. He's shown flashes of HB brilliance but the big win is that he's back playing and can build on that for 2021 and beyond.

I'm not knocking him. I'm all aboard the Harley Express but expectations should be tempered.

When the rest of the squad were doing the toughest pre-season ever, Harley was doing rehab - with the odd setback. He simply doesn't have the fitness base of the rest of the team. Who knows how many pre-seasons he missed at Freo. You don't get them back and you can't catch up during the season. He played against Carlton on the back of a 3 week block of training

All that said, I hope & expect to see him back in the team this season

[Pates 9,537]

16 minutes ago, Go the Biff said:

Spargo did everything Harley didn't do against Adelaide which I believe led to HB getting dropped and why Spargo should hold his place.

HB looked slow and tentative and I'm wondering if he hasn't got full confidence in his body.

For me he's already exceeded any expectations I had of him for 2020. He's shown flashes of HB brilliance but the big win is that he's back playing and can build on that for 2021 and beyond.

I'm not knocking him. I'm all aboard the Harley Express but expectations should be tempered.

When the rest of the squad were doing the toughest pre-season ever, Harley was doing rehab - with the odd setback. He simply doesn't have the fitness base of the rest of the team. Who knows how many pre-seasons he missed at Freo. You don't get them back and you can't catch up during the season. He played against Carlton on the back of a 3 week block of training

All that said, I hope & expect to see him back in the team this season

I think this sums it up quite nicely, I had hopes for Harley making an impact late in the season so for him have played multiple games already is fantastic. But he is clearly lagging behind in the pressure department, Spargo is....well Spargo but you can’t knock a player for coming in and playing his role and doing what was asked of him. 

Maybe I’m imagining this but I remembered his kicking being quite decent in 2018, even if it lacked the ability to go past 40-45m. I don’t know if it’s a case of him feeling the pressure to perform but almost seems to try to hard to bullet the ball to a player. 

I’m keen to know how Bedford is doing though, he had flashes in the pre-season and of course combined well with Kozzie for our best goal of the WC game. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Pates

[Swooper1987 2,751]

Grundy is barely going at the moment.  O'Brien comfortably beat him tonight.  Unless Gawn is near to fully fit I'd give him another game off.

[DEE fence 4,505]

8 minutes ago, Swooper1987 said:

Grundy is barely going at the moment.  O'Brien comfortably beat him tonight.  Unless Gawn is near to fully fit I'd give him another game off.

He deserves a break but I feel like Gawn can kill the corridor for us, we need this win, I also think we need to find other roles for Gawn to vary our style, we are a bit predictable at centre bounce for some reason.

However if he is really not right, then you are right and don’t play him.

 

[DeeZee 6,758]

Bennell hasn’t really done anything to warrant selection, he may need another pre season.

With pressure on for spots we need players that are really on their game.

[binman 38,475]

5 hours ago, Dannyz said:

In what sense has Tomlinson "struggled" as a key defender? Has he bad a bag kicked on him or been thoroughly beaten? I haven't seen it. 

Furthermore, Langdon aside, he's the only MFC player I see regularly receive the ball with some space ahead of him. Stays in the team for mine. 

I'd like him to stay the team too, just not as defender. 

Has he had a bag kicked on him?

No, but consider this.

He played as a key big defender against the two worst teams in the AFL who could only manage 5 goals each.

Four of those 10 goals were kicked by his direct opponent (Himmelburg - after easily out marking him, Daw, Larkey x 2). So 40% of the opposition goals in the two games he has played as a defender have been kicked by his direct opponent.

Has he been thoroughly beaten?

Might well have been had Goodwin not moved him in both games. Goody took him off Himmleburg after that first quarter mark and goal. And once it was obvious Larkey had his measure (after his second goal at the end of the first quarter) moved Tomlinson off him too. 

In both games he ended up playing basically as a half back flanker against players smaller and shorter than him.  And in both games played much better once moved because he could get up the ground and use his tank.

Play him on the wing, which is the role we recruited him to play and where he is best suited. Good tank, provides a marking option down the line and gets good penetration on his kicks, which is really helpful in clearing from the half back line and with the last kick inside 50.

Jones out and Tomlinson take his spot. Simples

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by binman

[Go the Biff 3,138]

7 minutes ago, binman said:

I'd like him to stay the team too, just not as defender. ...........

Play him on the wing, which is the role we recruited him to play and where he is best suited. Good tank, provides a marking option down the line and gets good penetration on his kicks, which is really helpful in clearing from the half back line and with the last kick inside 50.

Pretty much agree with this. Play him on the wing. He also gives the option to drop back into defence for the brief minutes that the likes of Lever & May are off the ground resting. Given that both play in the mid 90% of game time, it's not a lot to ask of him. Tomlinson also plays in the mid 90's of game time so we should be able to manage this without pulling one of our mids to the wing for any great length of time.

I thought Tomlinson was stiff to get dropped in the first place. There were a few worse than him in that Richmond game

[goodwindees 2,119]

I think at the moment our best 3 tall Defenders are May, Tomlinson & Lever.  I suspect they are going to continue with Tomlinson down back and give him a chance to finally solve a major problem area for us.  They gave him 4 years and I believe they think it is the position he will be able to provide most value.

If it were me, I’d be making the recruitment of a genuine wingman more in the mould of a Langdon type an off season priority rather than playing Tomlinson on a wing as I believe he is absolutely not a winger. 
 

 

[Cards13 9,117]

10 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Possible after a forward/ruck stint but then there's the 6 day break Dazzle.

As an old warhorse i would get the managed bit on 6 days or less but surely a young colt can fully recover in 4 to 5? Hoping the 6 days will suffice. 

Sometimes wonder if we let science get in the way of common sense at times now.

Followed by a 7 day break as well. Unless he has a niggle I’d be surprise if Jacko is rested. 

[Demon Dynasty 15,560]

1 hour ago, Cards13 said:

Followed by a 7 day break as well. Unless he has a niggle I’d be surprise if Jacko is rested. 

Will no doubt need managing at some point Cards.  Let's hope you're correct and he's in for the next few at least.  His mobility and ability to find space plus his leap/height up forward is a huge asset.

[WadeS 0]

In: Gawn (if fit), Viney, Bennell 

Out: TMAC (If Gawn is fit), AVB, Harmes 

TMAC unlucky, but Tomlinson is the only player suited to the other wing.

AVB had 11 disposals and only 1 effective

Harmes: has been a liability most of 2020. Unless he plays as a tagger on Sidebottom

[Maldonboy38 5,930]

There are so many variables that it is really difficult to nail down the ins and outs. The Football Department must be in a mine field when it comes to selecting the final 22.

Harmes - way out of form.

AVB - is really playing at VFL standard.

Tomlinson - hasn't really nailed his designated spot as defensive wing (Langdon being attacking wing)

TMac - has been overtaken by others in all 3 of his likely positions; forward, back, or wing

Melksham - the class seems to have disappeared but I reckon he might be doing what the coaches like in some way we can't measure

Bennell - classy, but has definitely hung back out of contests when it was his turn to go. Goodwin hates this

Spargo - a real surprise

Rivers - I'm always impressed by this kid, 

Jetta - has lost his spark

Fritsch - his point of difference is usually his basics; kicking and marking. But his basics have been awful at times

Brayshaw - play him in his position and bang, the fuse is lit.

A million other things in my head but for mine:

OUT: , AVB and Harmes 

IN: Gawn and Viney

The Pies are basically a team of midfielders. Our attacking and defensive spread will win or lose us the game, along with our field kicking. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,462]

10 hours ago, binman said:

I'd like him to stay the team too, just not as defender. 

Has he had a bag kicked on him?

No, but consider this.

He played as a key big defender against the two worst teams in the AFL who could only manage 5 goals each.

Four of those 10 goals were kicked by his direct opponent (Himmelburg - after easily out marking him, Daw, Larkey x 2). So 40% of the opposition goals in the two games he has played as a defender have been kicked by his direct opponent.

Has he been thoroughly beaten?

Might well have been had Goodwin not moved him in both games. Goody took him off Himmleburg after that first quarter mark and goal. And once it was obvious Larkey had his measure (after his second goal at the end of the first quarter) moved Tomlinson off him too. 

...

 

Most of the time I read that we play a zone defence. If that's the case, why do I also read about individual defenders and their "direct opponents"? Do our defenders have direct oppponents? How can that be if we play a zone defence? It's all too confusing for me.

[dpositive 1,547]

I came to this thread without having viewed either of last two weeks matches and relying on radio cover, with media commentary and Dland adding retrospective detail.

i have heard and seen comments on most players who seem to have both detractors and supporters, there is certainly a range of opinion and much of the Dland comments shows just how passionate and thoughtful are our supporters. Indeed all Dland negativity is founded on the desire to continue improvement.

I am probably even more confused than ever as I just don't know enough of the players condition and attitude despite or perhaps because of the range of thoughts expressed here, and I'm only four pages in.

I do think though that this is a greater test of the coach than the players, and it is the most significant one so far.

This game will undoubtably be played with far more intensity than any played this season. Collingwood have everything to play for with everything to lose. They will come out no doubt prepared to do anything to win. They will come out with the confidence that the umpires will rule in their favour in any contest. They will be able to play with an assurance that like every opponent Melbourne has played, will receive soft free kicks while Melbourne players will really have to earn theirs.. They will come out with the knowledge that their powerful and strong supporter base expect to win and will not accept any half or even full efforts, expecting them to play at 190% and to give second third and even fourth efforts on every contest. They will be ruthless.

And we should expect nothing less.

its why every fibre of my body screams that Jackson at least should be rested this week. Any young, underdeveloped, or suspected fitness concern body should be taken out of the now improved list that we have. Bodies and minds cannot enter this match with anything less than total commitment to win as a team. Individuals must still perform, and individual contests must be won but individual efforts will not overcome a United and committed team.

Jones should be able to remind players of the humiliation and arrogance Collingwood have displayed against Melbourne opponents, the players must be reminded not only of the present but of the past. But more importantly they must be told clearly of the future. The potential of this group is greater than any we have recently had and this match can be a portent of their future. But it is as a group that this will happen and some of the group will not play in this match for specific reasons. There must be no internal rivalry but only cohesion. There must be total commitment and support for every player on the field together and from those on the sidelines. Only this will make the possible, a deserved reality. 

The coach has to achieve this mind set and has to deliver this message to every player in whatever manner is required to ensure they understand this. I hope this can be done or Goodies tenure must be even more tenuous.

GO DEES.