POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 5

[Maldonboy38 6,034]

After being really deflated immediately after the game, I have a cooler head this morning.

I understand that the rotations limited by injury really killed us and fatigue set in. In some ways I feel quite proud of the team in the face of such exhaustion. But that is only one factor in an emerging group of concerning trends.

We lose games we are dominating by conceding 4-5 unanswered goals. 

Our leaders go into their shells during these crucial times and we see young guns like Oliver, Hunt, Petracca, etc... having to try and turn the game. This is a huge concern. 

Our handballing and kicking under pressure is seriously appalling. Again, mainly from our senior players. How many times last night did Jones, Vince, Viney stuff it up through a bad choice under pressure. Have a look at Cotchen under pressure - now THAT is composure. 

Hogan is really beginning to worry me. A huge presence on the field and we are beter with him. His marking and contested ball impact can be amazing. But he is very lazy, sooks, and is oftenjoggin around. 

So I am asking a tough question: do we have the right leaders? I am a massive Jones fans and he rates in my favourite MFC footballers of all time, but the leadership of him, Viney and TMac is dysfunctional at best, when the chips are down. Great for 3 quarters when we are front runners, but ineffective an error ridden when the game is on the line. 

Edited April 24, 2017 by Maldonboy38

[rjay 24,046]

7 minutes ago, Redleg said:

The Herald Sun reporting of the game is a disgrace.

Loved the Dees caller to SEN post game last night, who lashed the commentators for fawning over the Tigers. Got them to admit that if not for the injuries we win.

PS. Rance says he didn't even know or was aware we had injuries. Then admits their Coaches were telling them we were down players and would run out of legs and also noticed that we had no ruckman for most of the game. Also he was on Watts early, but was then left as a sweeper when Spencer went off and Watts did all the rucking. I won't  listen to him speak anymore. 

Fake news is very much alive in the sporting industry. I guess I've become more aware of it as of late.

The narrative is built around cash & not analysis.

The Tiges sell as do Collinnnnwood.

The fawning over the Pies and their first Q against bottom of the ladder Swans was all about keeping their fans on side and watching. The story not told was the Swans didn't turn up.

It was embarrassing 'Red'.

Same thing last night...selling hope to a deluded bunch of Tiges supporters will keep the tills ticking over.

 

[deebug 1,754]

8 hours ago, Diamond said:

Does he mean Mitch King?

Sorry Mitch King my bad

[Demons1858 1,663]

4 hours ago, Akum said:

I'm definitely in the camp that says that that was a magnificent effort, we couldn't have given any more, and when we were on equal terms we controlled a lot of the game. If Smith & Spencer get injured in the third quarter instead of the second, then we win. A good team can carry two short for a quarter or two, as we did, but more than two quarters is beyond all but the greatest of teams.

However, I think we need to shift slightly from "dumb intensity" (or "intensity-at-all-costs") to "smart intensity".

"Dumb intensity" includes:

• 4 up and none down in marking contests, forward or back
• 4 chasing the same ball at stoppages and trying to run it forward with all of them within a radius of about a metre.
• trying to handball our way through tight congestion, on a wet day (Toiges had a lot of success moving it from congestion with toe pokes of 5-10 metres - why did we never try this?)
• 200+cm ruckmen chasing midfielders or on the bottom of packs
• trying to kick the ball around the body and off balance out of defensive pockets
• kicking to contests instead of kicking to space
• mids turning into rather than away from congestion when they have the ball, and trying to crash through tackles

We need to keep the same intensity level but play smarter - spread better laterally, shepherd & block more in congestion to get the ball to the outside (every handball should be accompanied by a shepherd), and try to move the ball away from congestion rather than toward it.

We also need to recognise that other teams now know how good we are with contested ball, and from now on every team we play will park the bus inside their D50. We have to lower our eyes, or run it in, or kick to space. If we bomb it, it's far too easy for oppo defenders to "protect the fall of the ball" (mainly by holding Hogan) and get numbers there, and try to catch us on the breakaway. I say it again - that's how every team is going to play us from now on.

We definitely aren't far away. We just have to make minor adjustments, and just be a lot smarter with our intensity.

Good summation of our dumb intensity. Composure comes as smart young players learn from their experiences. Although there is a growing sample that a SMALL number might not or simply don't have the skills under pressure

[dl4e 5,648]

We outplayed them for 3 quarters. That loss really hurts. Again richmond will be the big pretenders.

Oh and by the way we handball way too much.

[Demonsone 1,666]

Goodwin said it well...Good teams find a way to win!

Reality is we had missed opportunities in the first 1/2

Reality is losing Spencer & Smith and we had to move Watts out of the forward line

Petracca copped a knee knock

Viney was off for portions of the last qtr

Tigers just beat a team with no bench and no Ruck

[DemonLad5 1,640]

Still stinging 

[Melb16 458]

11 hours ago, DemonAndrew said:

none of our mids can kick the ball, or want to kick the ball:

oliver - 8 kicks, 24 handballs

jones - 7 kicks, 18 handballs

tyson - 9 kicks, 16 handballs

viney - 7 kicks, 16 handballs

anb - 10 kicks, 11 handballs

stretch - 9 kicks, 10 handballs

in wet weather football. disgraceful!

This is the heart of our problem. Compare it to their midfielders. If our decision making clicks I think we'll improve out of sight. But if we keep handballing backwards, to blokes facing the other direction, blokes in worse positions etc. we will invite every team we play to stay in the game.

[loges 6,248]

Pats on the back to all those who advocated Pedo in after the Geelong game when Max went down. Was obvious was needed to give a chop out in the ruck and down forward.so Watts didn't have to just so obvious

[whatwhat say what 19,727]

i think to think it's a 'learning experience' @Melb16 - the team is learning to play first and foremost and they're trying hard to be 'busy' and thus over-possessing the ball regularly. it's very hard to watch.

[Geddy Lee 582]

It's been a long time since I've been on D'land and I think the time away has done me good.

If you are not proud of the team for their effort last night under the circumstances you have rocks in your head. 

This is the young talented Demons team we have been pretending to have for the last decade. We are not going to win the flag this year, and I dare say we may not make the finals because we will be missing our most important player for a long stretch of the season. However, we are developing a harder edge and consistent effort that will allow us to compete every week, no matter who we are playing, and I personally find this extremely encouraging. 

On a side note, Oliver is the best inside mid I've seen in the Red and Blue. 

[DemonLad5 1,640]

last 2 weeks i've been angry. This week i'm just devastated 

[stranga 328]

Im still burning even the morning after. Been a while since i havent been able to sleep it off.Most of this has already been said but...

- no leadership. Jones very limited now that we are pushing to be a good team. The captains curse hits Viney. 

- overuse of handball and poor decision making under pressure and inside 50.

- poor team selection  ( Jkh over Kent I'm , really? No pedo)

I refused to use injury as excuse. Even Goodwin says that good teams find away. So far we have failed miserably when it counts.

Special mention to Mike Hibberd..great game. Skilled tough and professional.

Edited April 25, 2017 by stranga

[low flying Robbo 979]

on a positive, how good were Frost's chase-downs?

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Just watched the game again. We absolutely owned Richmond for three quarters but they kicked some genuinely arsey goals to keep them in it.

We were always going to run out of legs in the last quarter with two talls down for much of the game (including our only ruckman).

In short, Richmond got super lucky last night. We were bloody unlucky. And a bit stupid at times - conceding those goals in the last minute of the second and third quarters was criminal. Desperately miss Lewis' cool head in those moments.

Hibberd is a gun. What a debut.

I feel absolutely devastated. That loss really hurts.

 

[titan_uranus 22,785]

6 hours ago, A F said:

On JKH, he wasn't great with ball in hand, but I'm not sure whether you watched the number 24 that closely tonight, mate. Absolutely no way he gets dropped after laying the third most tackles on the ground (7). He's met at least one of his key KPIs, I've no doubt.

Balance the 7 tackles with the rest of his game.

IMO, it comes out against him, not for him.

With the injuries he may well get a second game but I'm not sure I'm OK with picking players because they tackle when they make too many mistakes and otherwise have no influence on the game.

[NaughtyButNeitz 32]

The consistent theme over the last three weeks has been; long periods of domination, without fully capitalising on the scoreboard. We spend too many "petrol tickets" without enough reward. The first couple of rounds we tended to "lower our eyes" and were subsequently finding targets inside 50. The last three weeks, our entries have been a lot less methodical (for whatever reason).

Our injuries in last nights game were definitely a factor, but if we correct the issue mentioned above, we would have been at least 40pts up at 3/4 time. 

There is a lot to like, and I feel we've got the list and coaching group to seriously challenge within the next few years. However, as a long suffering Dees person, I sincerely understand the frustration that many are feeling. 

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,110]

1 hour ago, Maldonboy38 said:

After being really deflated immediately after the game, I have a cooler head this morning.

I understand that the rotations limited by injury really killed us and fatigue set in. In some ways I feel quite proud of the team in the face of such exhaustion. But that is only one factor in an emerging group of concerning trends.

We lose games we are dominating by conceding 4-5 unanswered goals. 

Our leaders go into their shells during these crucial times and we see young guns like Oliver, Hunt, Petracca, etc... having to try and turn the game. This is a huge concern. 

Our handballing and kicking under pressure is seriously appalling. Again, mainly from our senior players. How many times last night did Jones, Vince, Viney stuff it up through a bad choice under pressure. Have a look at Cotchen under pressure - now THAT is composure. 

Hogan is really beginning to worry me. A huge presence on the field and we are beter with him. His marking and contested ball impact can be amazing. But he is very lazy, sooks, and is oftenjoggin around. 

So I am asking a tough question: do we have the right leaders? I am a massive Jones fans and he rates in my favourite MFC footballers of all time, but the leadership of him, Viney and TMac is dysfunctional at best, when the chips are down. Great for 3 quarters when we are front runners, but ineffective an error ridden when the game is on the line. 

The suspension of Lewis has been profound. I sensed from his first 2 games with Lewis that Jones seemed to be playing at the top of his game. IMO he has not played anywhere near as well without him. He was poor last night however I have read that he too copped an injury as did Viney, but both had no choice other than to stay on the ground.

I expect Lewis to come back breathing fire and lead the way. I doubt he could have saved us last night due to all the injuries, but I reckon we'd have beaten both the Cats and Freo if he played.

Sadly, Lewis is the only true leader we have. Clarrie is fast tracking to be the next best leader. Early days but the Co Captaincy is currently looking a very poor decision.

[doc roet 1,232]

 

9 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Just watched the game again. We absolutely owned Richmond for three quarters but they kicked some genuinely arsey goals to keep them in it.

We were always going to run out of legs in the last quarter with two talls down for much of the game (including our only ruckman).

In short, Richmond got super lucky last night. We were bloody unlucky. And a bit stupid at times - conceding those goals in the last minute of the second and third quarters was criminal. Desperately miss Lewis' cool head in those moments.

Hibberd is a gun. What a debut.

I feel absolutely devastated. That loss really hurts.

 

Your a brave man Ron.

What pizzes me off though is the fact that we are not far off being 5-0 

[DeeZee 6,855]

As much as out forward efficiency is severely lacking, our defense seems to be a problem too.

The amount of times a Riewoldt or Rioli were standing on their own and kicked goals as a result was really disappointing.

i know we have some sort of zone defence, but it doesn't work, and opposing forwards always have a field day against us.

What happened to manning up on a dangerous forward.Other teams seem to do it to us as Hogan is always double teamed, and we can rarely seem to find space in our forward line.

Edited April 25, 2017 by DeeZee

[Engorged Onion 9,512]

7 hours ago, Macca said:

We're not far from each other here AF ... I agree on the contested game angle and both myself & rjay were advocating Watts to the ruck in a part time capacity a couple/few years ago.  

But he can be involved in there (periodically) without having to ruck.  The future answer could be that the MC bite the bullet and play both Gawn & Spencer in the same side (when they're both fit)

We really need to recruit a forward/ruckman for the future though - that's the ultimate solution.

Jack is still classy at times in the ruck/ruck work - look at his flick over the head tap in the lead up to Hunts goal...he is very underrated -

http://www.afl.com.au/video/2017-04-24/hunt-has-tigers-covered-for-pace

 

and although I reckon Clarry would win the B&F on the amount of possessions he gets - Watt's work ethic in these dire circumstances may fly under the radar.

[Dr. Gonzo 22,632]

11 hours ago, Watts the matter said:

Neville Jetta looked painfully slow

Jetta corked his thigh and was off for the start of the last quarter. I thought he did ok otherwise.

[Scoop Junior 3,055]

12 minutes ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Just watched the game again. We absolutely owned Richmond for three quarters but they kicked some genuinely arsey goals to keep them in it.

We were always going to run out of legs in the last quarter with two talls down for much of the game (including our only ruckman).

In short, Richmond got super lucky last night. We were bloody unlucky. And a bit stupid at times - conceding those goals in the last minute of the second and third quarters was criminal. Desperately miss Lewis' cool head in those moments.

Hibberd is a gun. What a debut.

I feel absolutely devastated. That loss really hurts.

 

Yep - three really frustrating losses in a row. At least with the Geelong came we could blame our poor kicking for goal and the Freo game our third quarter, but I feel as though last night was just taken away from us by factors totally outside our control. We did so much right for three quarters and you could see the frustration on the faces of the Richmond supporters as their side was once again falling apart in the big moment.

To then see them being able to celebrate a win and enjoy being 5-0 while we go home losers and three games behind them - it was a devastating loss.

And to see us just get destroyed in the last quarter by hitouts to advantage (same versus Geelong), when we know with Gawn fit that this is our greatest strength, is painful to watch. It won't get better any time soon, either.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

7 minutes ago, Hell Bent said:

The suspension of Lewis has been profound. I sensed from his first 2 games with Lewis that Jones seemed to be playing at the top of his game. IMO he has not played anywhere near as well without him. He was poor last night however I have read that he too copped an injury as did Viney, but both had no choice other than to stay on the ground.

I expect Lewis to come back breathing fire and lead the way. I doubt he could have saved us last night due to all the injuries, but I reckon we'd have beaten both the Cats and Freo if he played.

Sadly, Lewis is the only true leader we have. Clarrie is fast tracking to be the next best leader. Early days but the Co Captaincy is currently looking a very poor decision.

How the hell did Lachie Henderson and Toby Greene get off this week?!

The MRP is red hot bs.

I agree - I reckon we'd be 4-1 had we had Lewis and Hogan against the Cats and Freo, Lewis in particular.

 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,632]

11 hours ago, Scoop Junior said:

There are some seriously silly posts on this thread. 

How can anyone have a go at the players for losing that one. "Injuries no excuse"...are you serious? This is a game played by humans, they are not robots. In a high intensity, high pressure game, to lose two players before half time and have another one hobbling in the goal square, it makes it extremely difficult. Add in the fact your no1 ruck is out, then your second ruck goes down before half time, how can you possibly compete on a level playing field? And they are not playing mugs, they are playing a team of elite professional athletes, with 22 fit players. There was nothing more predictable than Richmond running over the top of us. You could see it late in the third.

By all means be frustrated. I am. It's excruciating to know you have a good side, a side in my view that is clearly a class above Richmond, but due solely to bad luck they have beaten us. We outplayed them for three quarters despite our injuries and they only crept past us at the end.

Richmond should get no credit for tonight. That was a Steven Bradbury win if I've ever seen one. Them being 5-0 and us 2-3 is about as illusory as ladder positions get.

Unfortunately we've just copped a shocking run of luck so far this year and in an even competition it can be the difference between finishing 5th or 15th. We finally have a good side capable of getting results and we just haven't had a fair go.

But be frustrated at that. Don't just assume this was an avoidable fade out that the players should take responsibility for. They were fantastic tonight and deserved the four points.

Finally, some sanity. Thank you.