POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 4

[Redleg 40,926]

3 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

Freo aren't bad. We don't have leaders that can read momentum swings and adjust accordingly. Lewis missing today hurt a lot. Jones, Tyson and Viney had the least impacting 60+ possessions you will ever see. Vince had possibly the worst 5 minutes in the last of his career. Spencer did as much as you could expect against Sandilands and will be better for it. Oliver and Trac continue to develop. Weids need to go back and develop atCasey, will be a good player but playing him next week and this week is hindering not helping. Take the third out and we win by 40 with some breathtaking pieces of play. The question needs to be asked what the [censored] happened in the third and how do we continue to not know how to shut out the final moments of a game. 

What do you do when a side gets a run on, you change what is happening. you go man on man, you lift tackling and pressure on the ball carrier, you have extra defenders, you make it a scrap, you hassle your opponent, you hurt  the opposition in the tackle etc.

.What did we do, answer, we watched it happen. Poor coaching, poor leadership, dumb football.

[Adam The God 30,261]

We're a work in progress on a number of fronts. Our zone defence is tighter than it was last year, but it's still got a long way to go. Even Jetts struggled at times today. Jetts is one, but we need another regular winner back there. T McDonald is a 24 year old KPB with over 100 games under his belt. He should be dominating ala Rance of 2013-2016. But his consistency for a player of his experience is worrying. Do we really have to go after a FA KPD or a young KPD? We've invested so heavily in McDonald that we really need him to improve.

Our ball movement is also a work in progress. We really overused the ball at times today, particularly across our half forward arc. A couple of times when we should have gone to 1-on-1s inside forward 50, we decided to handball back and ended up using a Melksham type who had to kick on his wrong foot with a really shallow entry that failed to put the defence under any real pressure.

We had a number of passages today where we got plenty of numbers to the contest, sometimes 4 or 5 Demons to 1 Freo player and still managed to either lose it or the Freo player would neutralise the contest. 

What I had hoped after last week was that we'd be really hurting and wanting to rectify our win that should have been against Geelong. Instead, we came out sluggishly and I wonder whether the coaches needed to harness this hurt a little more. Further, when we did come to play in the second quarter, we then completely stopped at half time. It seemed as if we thought we had it won at half time. Freo's pressure had dropped off and we'd managed to get a handy lead.

Oliver was terrific, though even he at times overused it, and Jeffy was brilliant yet again.

This week more than ever though, we missed Lewis' experience and Hogan's presence up forward. It would have been interesting to see how we handled the third quarter had Lewis been out there. How [censored] costly are those two suspensions looking? 

[von 1,567]

1 minute ago, Wiseblood said:

In 2014-2015?  I would agree.  But not now.  We've got a far better list and we are pushing for finals - finals sides don't carry blokes like we are right now.  Weideman will be alright in time, but right now he is a liability.  He can't impact games in any way and we can't have that in a key forward at the moment.

 true we are pushing for finals but our list is a few steps from contending, which is an entirely different situation. I think the fastest way we get there is getting games into our talent, which weideman is. The game was lost in the middle and an inability to navigate their defense effectively with decision making and skills letting us down. We are still going to have flat games like today. The middle of the ladder is as congested as it's ever been which is where we are. Our positive is that we are the youngest team in that pack.

[Deestroy All 14,266]

I really question Goodwin's judgment in a) bringing Melksham to the club and 2) almost gifting him a spot ahead of Jetta - which would have happened had injuries not let Jetta walk back in. 

The guy has played exactly like Did at Essendon. Poor disposal. Faux aggression and soft when it really matters. He's bog ordinary. No idea why Goodwin recruited him. Just like I had no idea why Roos would recruit Lumumba. Dumb players not suited to today's half back flank. Please, Hibberd, give us something.

The co captaincy thing didn't really bother me. But after hearing Jones' comments on it, I think it was unnecessary. I don't really attribute it to Viney's poor form either, but it's clear Viney isn't a captain yet and miles off Jones' level. 

Couple of early fails against Goodwin. 

 

As for the game itself. It was predictable. Felt it in my loins. Made it no easier to accept though. The mental lapse in the 3rd, and zero if not negative leadership in the last few minutes was just painful. 

Dom Tyson's disposal in the first half, simple [censored] disposals, were just absolutely unforgivable. He's meant to be this classy Pendlebury type, he's more Godfrey. Just does it too often in too many games. Slow as all [censored] too. 

Frost is better than Omac but the defence is still unreliable bordering on a shambles. Vince isn't a defender and should be nowhere near the back half, another x for Goodwin. 

 

My positives were Garlett who has been sensational this year. Petracca, who should be a permanent forward with no Hogan. And Watts who may actually be winning me over. 

 

The major negative is footy is [censored] [censored]. 

[Redleg 40,926]

BTW, who was responsible for Jetta being against Mundy on the goal line, when there was a boundary throw in and we had time to sort out our defence.

Soft goal and how much did we lose by? 

[praha 11,240]

1 minute ago, Deestroy All said:

I really question Goodwin's judgment in a) bringing Melksham to the club and 2) almost gifting him a spot ahead of Jetta - which would have happened had injuries not let Jetta walk back in. 

The guy has played exactly like Did at Essendon. Poor disposal. Faux aggression and soft when it really matters. He's bog ordinary. No idea why Goodwin recruited him. Just like I had no idea why Roos would recruit Lumumba. Dumb players not suited to today's half back flank. Please, Hibberd, give us something.

The co captaincy thing didn't really bother me. But after hearing Jones' comments on it, I think it was unnecessary. I don't really attribute it to Viney's poor form either, but it's clear Viney isn't a captain yet and miles off Jones' level. 

Couple of early fails against Goodwin. 

 

As for the game itself. It was predictable. Felt it in my loins. Made it no easier to accept though. The mental lapse in the 3rd, and zero if not negative leadership in the last few minutes was just painful. 

Dom Tyson's disposal in the first half, simple [censored] disposals, were just absolutely unforgivable. He's meant to be this classy Pendlebury type, he's more Godfrey. Just does it too often in too many games. Slow as all [censored] too. 

Frost is better than Omac but the defence is still unreliable bordering on a shambles. Vince isn't a defender and should be nowhere near the back half, another x for Goodwin. 

 

My positives were Garlett who has been sensational this year. Petracca, who should be a permanent forward with no Hogan. And Watts who may actually be winning me over. 

 

The major negative is footy is [censored] [censored]. 

What?

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, Deestroy All said:

I really question Goodwin's judgment in a) bringing Melksham to the club and 2) almost gifting him a spot ahead of Jetta - which would have happened had injuries not let Jetta walk back in. 

 

Jetta was injured throughout the JLT series.  It had nothing to do with Melksham.

[Adam The God 30,261]

Oh and agree with those knocking Dom's kicking in the first half. It was dreadful. I think he hit 1 target in about 10. I'm a fan but he needs to fix his disposal by foot in a big way.

[von 1,567]

2 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

As I said, this is the only way he impacts the game, but we have others on our list (Smith and Pedersen) who can bring the ball to ground but can then do more around the ground.

It doesn't matter who it is, without Hogan Fremantle was always going to gang up on whoever we had left so he can't be blamed for not taking a stack of marks. But it's what he does otherwise that is the worry - currently, outside of marking contests, it's nothing.

And I disagree that we can "afford to carry a few players if it means they develop faster". We are no longer in that phase of our development. We might not be winning the flag this year but there can be no doubt we must aim for finals, and as a result this is not a year for carrying underperforming players.

All fair points. Does weideman develop faster in the vfl? Also next to hogan is he a liability at all? Pederson and smith aren't key forwards in my mind. They are third forwards in an average side to me. Weideman is a strong second forward if developed correctly. Hogans ability and form straight out of the gates is almost miraculous. It doesn't happen. I wonder if we expect more from weideman because of this.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,177]

2 minutes ago, Redleg said:

What do you do when a side gets a run on, you change what is happening. you go man on man, you lift tackling and pressure on the ball carrier, you have extra defenders, you make it a scrap, you hassle your opponent, you hurt  the opposition in the tackle etc.

.What did we do, answer, we watched it happen. Poor coaching, poor leadership, dumb football.

You make it sound so easy. Not much of that sounds like coaching sounds on the field talk and between the ears and in the heart.

[leave it to deever 17,511]

1 hour ago, olisik said:

Poor decision to stop Smith and keep the Weeds in. He not only missed a sitter 15m out but he also did the turn over to give Freo there winning goal. 

 

We need to stop gifting games to under performing players. Even Trenners sitting in the goal square would've been more effective.

Hes just a kid with a slim frame. He can jump but thats it. The most dissapointing stat about him was he laid zero tackle sand seemed disinterested in applying any pressure. I dont know why he was selected in the first place. Pederson must be injured. Tim Smith would have been a better choice. He is much stronger than weid who was manhandled today,

We stopped in the 3rd qrt and didnt put our bodies on the line like the last. Its hard to stop run ons like that but Goody didnt make changes for the whole third qrt which didnt help.

Congrats to Spencer and Watts and Oliver again. Garlett another stellar effort. Its a long road to sep Im afraid. It seemed like the dees of old today and I think supporters have a right to feel let down by this game we had to win. 

If Hogans personal issues interfere with his footy this year we are in serious trouble up forward. We still lack a big strong experienced ute player that can be deployed where necessary. Back to the drawing board. This mob can seriously give you the sh1ts sometimes.

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

I'm not concerned as bitter as today's defeat it - so much upside, nor concerned about good wins coaching. Viney looks cooked mostly, melksham is a hack And can someone please recruit Lachie Neale...gun.

[Watts the matter 1,235]

Had forgotten about this one, but Dom Tyson's tackling effort on Balic in the third quarter was a disgrace.

[dazzledavey36 54,947]

3 minutes ago, A F said:

Oh and agree with those knocking Dom's kicking in the first half. It was dreadful. I think he hit 1 target in about 10. I'm a fan but he needs to fix his disposal by foot in a big way.

Im starting to think whether Tyson is overrated. His disposal by foot is simply  horrific. 

Other then turning it over i dont see any other stand out attributes that will say he can become an elite mid.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,177]

Just now, dazzledavey36 said:

Im starting to think whether Tyson is overrated. His disposal by foot is simply  horrific. 

Other then turning it over i dont see any other stand out attributes that will say he can become an elite mid.

He knows how to get easy possessions. Doesn't take first option, doesn't hit an option when he does take an option, doesn't defend with intent. Will not be starting 22 by years end. 

[Forest Demon 4,681]

1 minute ago, Watts the matter said:

Had forgotten about this one, but Dom Tyson's tackling effort on Balic in the third quarter was a disgrace.

He wasn't alone in that quarter. So many tackling efforts were all arms and no body in that quarter, it was really shittin me.

[pinkshark 950]

1 hour ago, Goffer said:

2-2 means finals will be difficult, if Richmond win impossible. Dockers are better than they've been given credit for but we should have buried thte game. Inexcusable 

Don't get carried away now Goffer.  

 

[Adam The God 30,261]

1 hour ago, olisik said:

Poor decision to stop Smith and keep the Weeds in. He not only missed a sitter 15m out but he also did the turn over to give Freo there winning goal. 

 

We need to stop gifting games to under performing players. Even Trenners sitting in the goal square would've been more effective.

I agree with this, but at the same time, we did need a tall to take their bigger defenders IMO. And he did bring the ball to ground quite a few times. My biggest knock at this stage is his tank. He struggles for repeat efforts. He also finds himself a little lost on the ground at times and leads up a little too high. He's better out of the square. When he finds himself 45-50m out, it's too easy for defenders to whisk the ball away and there's little implied pressure because the entry isn't deep. I would have liked to see him lead back to the square harder at times.

I think the Weideman 'out' call will probably come as Hogan will no doubt we back next week. What might save Weeds is he plays marginally better with Hogan by his side, who compensates for the work rate Weideman lacks at this stage. Hogan's movement also opens up space deeper for Weeds.

Anyway, I think it might be time for a Weideman rest.

[leave it to deever 17,511]

4 minutes ago, von said:

Weideman is a strong second forward if develope

If is the key word here and I know thats why they played him. Its a juggling act at best but a player can also go downhill if crushed each week. Look how long it took Watts to recover from his premature entry to the big time.

 

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,833]

Using Watts in the ruck is like using your Rolls Royce to take your rubbish to the dump on the back seat when you have a perfectly good ute sitting in the carport, you just shouldn't do it, particularly when you have practically no other key forwards on the park.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[titan_uranus 25,020]

4 minutes ago, von said:

All fair points. Does weideman develop faster in the vfl? Also next to hogan is he a liability at all? Pederson and smith aren't key forwards in my mind. They are third forwards in an average side to me. Weideman is a strong second forward if developed correctly. Hogans ability and form straight out of the gates is almost miraculous. It doesn't happen. I wonder if we expect more from weideman because of this.

I certainly don't expect Weideman to be like Hogan was in his first/second year.

But there's dominant, and then there's OK, or even acceptable.

I don't want anyone in our forward line who has no ability (whether because they're not fit enough or otherwise) to impact the game once the ball hits the ground.

He might learn from Hogan but if we lose games as a result then that's not the right decision.

Of course, we're 2-0 with Hogan and Weideman and 0-2 without Hogan. But IMO he's just not capable of doing enough when the ball hits the ground to warrant remaining in the team.

[Deestroy All 14,266]

Again on Vince, playing him as a defender... wtf, his best form, probably ever, was when he was shutting down midfielders, there's your defence, it isn't getting down there. On top of that he was killing them the other way. The mind boggles. Don't give me the age bs either, they moved him back there not long after his b&f and he's still fit as a fiddle. 

I fail to see the logic in it at all. He's had 1 good game back there. 

[bing181 9,240]

Had a (really) good 2nd quarter. Took our foot off in the third, and they had enough ability to make sure we paid heavily. Did well to turn it around in the last, but not experienced or mature enough to pull off a close one.

In the press conference, Goodman talked about composure with the ball. We still have too many players who don't have it, or have enough of it, which is dangerous around players like Fyfe.

Not lost at the selection table, lost between the ears.

[Dockett 32 1,239]

We find out if Goody and his men are mentally tough enough and have right skill set  next week.

There are no excuses,we can't afford to be 2-3.IMO we must win next week and  we need to win big to restore some faith to the membership who by their numbers have shown their support.

Selection and performance completely unacceptable two weeks in a row. Jackson needs an explanation and commitment to fix.

Goody now batting at 50% and that doesn't get you to finals.

 

[Adam The God 30,261]

8 minutes ago, big_red_fire_engine said:

He knows how to get easy possessions. Doesn't take first option, doesn't hit an option when he does take an option, doesn't defend with intent. Will not be starting 22 by years end. 

I'll say he will be, BRFE. Who's going to take his place? The thing about an inside player that knows how to get easy possessions is that when he tidies up his outside disposal, he'll be a really damaging player. 

His first half, despite getting it a lot, was terrible. Thought once again though, he played a really good final quarter.