Copying the Bulldogs

[DeeSpencer 25,715]

I've tried to pair up the players in our side with the Dogs Grand Final squad.

FB: Roberts Hamling   M. Boyd
FB: O. Mc    Frost     N. Jones

HB: JJ   Morris   Wood
HB: Hunt  T. Mc  Hibberd/long term J. Smith?

C: Hunter  Bont   Macrae
C: Salem   Oliver   Tyson

HF: Picken Cordy  Dunkley
HF: Jetta   Hogan    Brayshaw

FF: Stringer  T. Boyd  Dickson
FF: Vanders  Weideman  Watts

Foll: Roughead  Dahlhaus  Libba
Foll: Gawn     Petracca    Viney

Int: C. Smith  McLean  Biggs  Daniel
Int:  Harmes   Stretch   Melksham   ?JKH

Not at all saying we compare to the Dogs all that much, and there's a huge gap between some of their players and ours.

But they are now the pacesetters of the comp and if we want to clue as to where the game is heading they might be it.

The dogs won today and based their game around 3 things:
1. Midfield rotations and spread of contributions
2. Forward pressure
3. A brilliant set up zone defense that works together and stays cool under pressure.

Our midfield is on the way, but needs the numbers like the Dogs have.

Our backline has been overhauled, but can probably go the next level with more recruits coming in this year. I think we should play 3 talls when required and go smaller when required like the Dogs have. I'd have either Oscar or Frost as when required like how the Dogs use Roberts and play a smaller player like Wagner otherwise.

Our forward pressure is our biggest weakness. If players don't routinely compete and pressure they have to go. Guys like Harmes, Brayshaw and Vanders might be automatic selections if they can just harass and pressure like the Dogs do and they can also rotate in to the midfield. Kent and Garlett might have to be left out. More controversially it might be time to send Jetta forward like Picken. He's the best tackler on our list as well as a super competitive one on one player.

We shouldn't set out to plainly copy the Dogs. Every side has to be different and sides are constantly reinventing themselves. The dogs have this year going from sexy footy to super scrappers.

But there might be some of the moves I've suggested that are worth trying and I think you have to keep up with the trends of modern footy whilst balancing that with your own identity and strengths.

 

 

[praha 11,240]

Our problem has always been that we seem to start a rebuild at the wrong time.

In 2008, we were going the all-youth route ala Hawthorn 2008.

We've tried the running offensive game while the likes of Geelong, Sydney and Collingwood perfected the defensive game.

We've gone the hardball route while teams like Hawthorn win flags with the outside runner and pressure, and few contested possessions  (compared to opponents).

The Bulldogs won this year by playing FOOTBALL. Playing games on their terms, and forcing teams into their own style: causing turnovers, and punishing them in transition.

I do think we're "coming good" at the right time: our best looks as good (if not arguably better than the Dogs), but we're still unaccountable.

We need to innovate and play games on our terms.

Comparing to premiership winning teams is futile, because those teams are always unique in how they win.

This Bulldogs squad is a lot like Sydney of 2005. But NOW, we need to find a way to create our own style, because we're still coming from so far back.

 

[buck_nekkid 5,866]

The thing I noticed today was the setup inside F50.  The doggies set up a second line outside the contest - fast hands or by any means the ball was forced to them, and they kicked off a step at goal.  I don't know how many goals they got through this strategy.  They poured on heaps of pressure.

The swans didn't let them get out the back, and slowed the spread most of the day.

Think the doggies got the rub of The umpires today.

Our aim must be not to 'copy' them, but to play to our strengths and 'beat' them.  At the moment we have a lot of work to do on outside speed and kicking accuracy.

BTW: How the bulls testicles did Johannason with the Norm Smith?  Almost all his disposals were directly to opposition or ineffective.

[DeeSpencer 25,715]

8 minutes ago, praha said:

 

This Bulldogs squad is a lot like Sydney of 2005. But NOW, we need to find a way to create our own style, because we're still coming from so far back.

 

Yeah I agree we need to be our own side, although I think there's a balance where you need to do what the best teams do well enough to then add your own layer. I've also compared the Dogs to the Swans of 05. Some striking similarities. 

After the Swans-Eagles came the young Cats tearing games apart with strength in all areas and sublime skills to possess the ball and keep it moving.

Maybe if we were to break it down and instead of trying to replicate the Dogs we just focussed on one key area I'd say that's certainly forward pressure. Every premiership side since Hawthorn 2008 has been able to tackle and lock the ball in forward. That has to be a priority for us in the preseason.

[mo64 5,874]

I been saying it for 2 years, it all comes down to the coach. Roos felt he needed 2 years of a defensive gameplan before he let the players attack. Beveridge walks in and has his team playing an attacking style, which the players embraced, but realised that it wouldn't take them all the way. Within the space of 1 preseason, Beveridge has them being the best defensive team in the comp.

And don't get me started on Roos' list of excuses when the team had a shocker. Despite having horrible luck with injury, Beveridge never made excuses, and instilled belief in his whole squad. 

Beveridge has been innovative from day one, whilst Roos felt he was just a caretaker coach whio could take the pressure off the club.

[chook fowler 19,459]

You never win a flag by copying anybody. Innovation and team commitment and cohesion are the go.

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

The Bont, when he made an appearance on Marngrook Footy Show earlier this year, praised Brendan McCartney for the work he did as coach, a lot of tidays  players were given their chance by McCartney

Beveridge came in and moulded the players into a unit, as a relationshop coach, Goodwin

So maybe we are not that far off copying

[praha 11,240]

11 minutes ago, mo64 said:

I been saying it for 2 years, it all comes down to the coach. Roos felt he needed 2 years of a defensive gameplan before he let the players attack. Beveridge walks in and has his team playing an attacking style, which the players embraced, but realised that it wouldn't take them all the way. Within the space of 1 preseason, Beveridge has them being the best defensive team in the comp.

And don't get me started on Roos' list of excuses when the team had a shocker. Despite having horrible luck with injury, Beveridge never made excuses, and instilled belief in his whole squad. 

Beveridge has been innovative from day one, whilst Roos felt he was just a caretaker coach whio could take the pressure off the club.

Bit tough. Dees still had a lot of ego that didn't buy into Roos, and depth that struggled at AFL level.

We were and still are coming from much further back than the Dogs were. 

Roos was extremely diplomatic. He kept his cards close to his chest. Bevvy is emotional and a good people person. So is Roos, but they're two totally different personalities. Beveridge is more like Clarkson.

Roos is just Roos.

[McQueen 17,864]

34 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

The Bont, when he made an appearance on Marngrook Footy Show earlier this year, praised Brendan McCartney for the work he did as coach, a lot of tidays  players were given their chance by McCartney

Beveridge came in and moulded the players into a unit, as a relationshop coach, Goodwin

So maybe we are not that far off copying

I often think that Macca cops too much blame for the state of the WBFC a few years ago. As head coach, it's an occupational hazard that you'll invariably wear if your players aren't performing.

I do take some solace in be fact that he has been part of such a dramatic transition - albeit at the beginning.

Was nice of the Bont to acknowledge him. He probably deserves more but if he did I'm sure we would have heard of it.

[rjay 24,929]

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

I been saying it for 2 years, it all comes down to the coach. Roos felt he needed 2 years of a defensive gameplan before he let the players attack. Beveridge walks in and has his team playing an attacking style, which the players embraced, but realised that it wouldn't take them all the way. Within the space of 1 preseason, Beveridge has them being the best defensive team in the comp.

And don't get me started on Roos' list of excuses when the team had a shocker. Despite having horrible luck with injury, Beveridge never made excuses, and instilled belief in his whole squad. 

Beveridge has been innovative from day one, whilst Roos felt he was just a caretaker coach whio could take the pressure off the club.

You can say it for as many years as you like 'mo' but you would still be wrong.

Your explanation is way too simplistic and doesn't take account of where the clubs were at the time the respective coaches took over.

[dazzledavey36 54,947]

Oh FFS can we stop copying other sides for once and build our own destiny. First it was the 'Geelong Style' under Bailey and then the play the boundary 'like Collingwood' under Neeld.

Fk everyone else.

[SaberFang 7,151]

1 hour ago, mo64 said:

I been saying it for 2 years, it all comes down to the coach. Roos felt he needed 2 years of a defensive gameplan before he let the players attack. Beveridge walks in and has his team playing an attacking style, which the players embraced, but realised that it wouldn't take them all the way. Within the space of 1 preseason, Beveridge has them being the best defensive team in the comp.

And don't get me started on Roos' list of excuses when the team had a shocker. Despite having horrible luck with injury, Beveridge never made excuses, and instilled belief in his whole squad. 

Beveridge has been innovative from day one, whilst Roos felt he was just a caretaker coach whio could take the pressure off the club.

The club Roos took over is significantly different to the club Beveridge took over. It's not even a fair comparison.

What Beveridge took over is akin to what Goodwin is inheriting right now. A mid-tier team outside the 8 with moments of despair and horrific inconsistency. A coach can change a club but they still need the cattle.

Luke Beveridge walking into Melbourne as senior coach at the end of 2013 does not win Melbourne a premiership in 2015.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

1 hour ago, buck_nekkid said:

Our aim must be not to 'copy' them, but to play to our strengths and 'beat' them. 

I've been saying this for years.

[DeeSpencer 25,715]

3 minutes ago, Clint Bizkit said:

I've been saying this for years.

That's fine, and I regret using the word copy. 

But I still the modern game is so much about absorbing and applying pressure and the Dogs showcased that beautifully today.

They've change the way they play a bit by becoming a contested beast of a team with more in tight handballing than the kicking game they played last year and early this year and I'm not sure I'd try to copy that. But I think we should look at the way they apply pressure around stoppages and when they get the ball forward. 

It's a major weakness Roos hasn't been able to fix so we have to try something new.

[monoccular 17,431]

We need to learn from other sides, but not copy them. 

The Bulldogs achieved success not by copying but from learning from others and then creating their own game, demanding a coherent team game with each player  supporting  every other.   They do not depend on individual stars, though they do help, but having lost so many players through injury this year they have become very team orienteated. 

Every time they get the ball they take on the opposition in the knowledge that they will have at least one option for disposal.  It doesn't always work out but they have confidence that it will more often than not.  We need to engender that team feeling that there will (almost) always be help on hand.

As an aside, does anyone else think that the Bulldogs taking on Travis Choke would totally upset their game plan? If he can't run and apply pressure on defenders he would seem to me to have no place in their structure. 

[camillo 106]

 Yes let's copy the bulldogs and try to be serial failures like they have over the years. We have won twelve premierships never forget history. 

[DeeSpencer 25,715]

1 hour ago, camillo said:

 Yes let's copy the bulldogs and try to be serial failures like they have over the years. We have won twelve premierships never forget history. 

Our history has held us back more than helped us since the 60's. They are the bench mark right now.

[DeeSpencer 25,715]

1 hour ago, monoccular said:

We need to learn from other sides, but not copy them. 

The Bulldogs achieved success not by copying but from learning from others and then creating their own game, demanding a coherent team game with each player  supporting  every other.   They do not depend on individual stars, though they do help, but having lost so many players through injury this year they have become very team orienteated. 

Every time they get the ball they take on the opposition in the knowledge that they will have at least one option for disposal.  It doesn't always work out but they have confidence that it will more often than not.  We need to engender that team feeling that there will (almost) always be help on hand.

As an aside, does anyone else think that the Bulldogs taking on Travis Choke would totally upset their game plan? If he can't run and apply pressure on defenders he would seem to me to have no place in their structure. 

Zaine Cordy had 4 tackles including a monster one on Hannebery early for his goal but he's a very limited player as a forward. 

I'd expect Cloke wouldn't be as good defensively but would offer more with the ball. They obviously think they can get him fitter, more mobile and more confident. 

I expect Cloke will end up depth behind Crameri but by having the extra tall he could give them the option play Stringer as a proper utility in the midfield and even down back. He's a shell of the player he was last year.

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

I thought the 'copying' meant win a premiership, I am sure Goodwin already has a good idea of how he wants the team to play and who is capable of doing that on the list

 

[bandicoot 1,395]

All we needed to do was get an assistant coach from the Hawks. Clarkson is a mastermind and should go down in history as the greatest coach of all time. 

Beveridge would have made the dees a premiership side. He has taken the best parts of the clarkson game plan, tweaked them and presto... premiership.

the dogs on paper and no better than Melbourne. Their game style and tactics are a world apart.

lets hope Goodwin can mimic how clarkson plays and implement it for next year. 

[Rocknroll 1,004]

We need faster and quicker and better hands in close to anything close to the doggies

[Biffen 12,943]

1 hour ago, Rocknroll said:

We need faster and quicker and better hands in close to anything close to the doggies

there are no faster hands in a pack situation than old Uncle Bitters.

Having been at the football and had my face slapped just for standing adjacent him was an experience.

Luckily they are introducing female security guards to keep an eye on the lecherous .

Edited October 1, 2016 by Biffen

[grazman 7,436]

I'm not sure about copying the Bulldogs, but I have thought that since Roos came on board that we were only 12-18 months behind them in terms of developing our list.  There are some similarities with that way we are going about it, which isn't really copying them, but more following what we have known about footy for the longest time and that is you need to get your hands on the pill first to win games of footy.   

They have more experience across the back six (Murphy, Boyd, Morris) that really sets up the way they play and its interesting that their zone defence is the way we are setting up as well (much to the chagrin of many of our supporters - see either St Kilda game day threads from this year)   Like us they don't really play man on man (i.e. kpd on kpf)  in their back six where they rotate onto different players to cover player moving up the ground.  The exception yesterday was Hambling who was given the job on Buddy, although I think he should be making some sacrificial offerings to the footy Gods for the rest of his career after Buddy rolled his ankle.   They're flexible enough to adapt to circumstances and whilst a parochial view I think our younger tall defenders are the equal if not better than theirs. I also think when Hunt, Salem, Wagner, Hibberd etc play more games together that it will become tighter and our counter attacks from the back half will look more structured rather than a bit haphazard the way they did at times this year.

Their best 6 in Bont, Libba, Wallis, Hunter, McRae and Stringer are good/elite but in comparison I think Hogan, Petracca, Gawn, Viney, Oliver and Brayshaw are going to be just as good if not better. 

The one area I think we will be better than the dogs is in our forward structure.  I think they were fortunate in playing another side whose game plan is really suited to a different venue.  They rely heavily on running and carrying the ball into the forward fifty and most of their goals came from scrambled forward fifty entries.  I think/hope with Hogan, Watts and Weideman/Hulett we would kick a winning score if we had as many forward fifty entries as the dogs did yesterday.

[Dante 2,739]

12 hours ago, mo64 said:

I been saying it for 2 years, it all comes down to the coach. Roos felt he needed 2 years of a defensive gameplan before he let the players attack. Beveridge walks in and has his team playing an attacking style, which the players embraced, but realised that it wouldn't take them all the way. Within the space of 1 preseason, Beveridge has them being the best defensive team in the comp.

And don't get me started on Roos' list of excuses when the team had a shocker. Despite having horrible luck with injury, Beveridge never made excuses, and instilled belief in his whole squad. 

Beveridge has been innovative from day one, whilst Roos felt he was just a caretaker coach whio could take the pressure off the club.

Remember the list that Roos inherited, I do it was a shambles and he had to spend the next couple of years ridding us of the deadwood. You can say what you want about Roos but he has regenerated our list and we are where we are at the moment because of him, the last lot will go this year, I believe.

Roos had to rid us of 50 years of mediocrity, apart from some patches of finals, which we were never a realistic chance to win, we have been garbage. The Bullies had some good players and played finals a few years ago, the culture at that club was far superior to ours, whose isn't, and as we'd been destroying our list they'd been building theirs.

I'm excited by our list, Pertacca can be our Bont, Hunt can be our JJ, Hogan can be our Boyd, Max is better than Roughy and we have a pretty exciting bunch of kids in the midfield with Oliver, Viney, Dom and Brayshaw capable of going to the next level. Roos has left us in good shape and now it's up to Goodwin to deliver.

 

 

[Guest]

No chance in hell that Bevo would have been able to thrive like he has at the Dogs had he come to us after 2011.

And why do we have to be so reactive? I now the OP has said that we shouldn't outright steal the Dogs' game plan but ever since I have arrived at Demonland all I have ever heard about is how we need to play Clarko footy (and before that we had to master the forward press). Why can't we just play our own style?