Major Shortcomings still unresolved

[RalphiusMaximus 5,993]

While there are structural issues still to resolve, the biggest issues are still in the midfield.  Our basic skills let us down time and time again.  The simplest things like picking up the ball cleanly and hitting targets are still letting us down.  Yes, we get caught out by the fast sides, but that pace would be less of an issue if we had better skills.  The Hawks aren't a quick side, nor are they contested beasts.  They win because every player in their side knows where they need to put the ball and they have the skills to do it.  Add to that their clean handling which buys them a little extra time and you see why they are dominant.  Our players generally have no idea where to put the ball to our team's advantage and even when they do few have the skill to execute. 

[Je Roos Salem 661]

Seems to me we're running out of gas. We shot out of the gates V the Saints, dominated the ball and laid brutal tackles, so I don't know if it's a matter of pacing ourselves. Last quarters against St.Kilda, Hawthorn, Adelaide, Port and Sydney have shown this, and Darwin we could do no more than chip it around for the last quarter. We really need some good kicking to break the lines (Vince is capable, but always settles for short kicks) and some leading targets. 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,628]

19 hours ago, Wiseblood said:

If you compare our side in 2013 and how we played to the 2016 side and how we play then it's clear we have improved.  If you can't see it then you are blind.

Our culture, training habits, ability to teach and educate the players... it's night and day to what it has been.  We have some very good players coming through and the future is bright.

Obviously, there are some things that still need to be worked on.  Our ability to have a Plan B, play at Etihad and learn to win games that we SHOULD is all part of that.  We are better at beating those teams below us (Essendon aside) and our gameplan, mostly, works against all sides.

If we had a time machine that took us back a few years to see what we were like then, we would all be down on our hands and knees kissing the feet of Paul Roos and Peter Jackson.  As the players get more games into them we should see them eradicate some of those things mentioned above.

We used to turn up thinking getting within 10 goals was a good effort. More often than not it was 80-100 point beltings. 

[bing181 8,226]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We used to turn up thinking getting within 10 goals was a good effort. More often than not it was 80-100 point beltings. 

And all we had to train in was a shoebox in the middle of the road.

[bush demon 1,913]

5 hours ago, Dappa Dan said:

Jeez the demonland sook army still in fine voice. It was a loss. Still have awesome up and coming kids, still the youngest and most inexperienced. When Roo finishes and Montagna retires, we'll cream them. This game won't even be remembered in a couple of years. This site got unbearable in my absence. Don't turn it into the facebook groups. None of us want to have to go back to demonology.

In the days of californian poppy and pomade we would have creamed them.

[deanox 8,780]

MFCSS at its finest. 

 

We are playing the youngest team in the comp week in week out. We gave up 18 months and 30 games experience to the saints. 

Did anyone envisage that after 3 years of Roos we'd have the youngest team? I doubt he did. I doubt Jackson did when he said we were aiming for finals. 

This year has proven one thing only: we were worse that anyone thought. After 3 years we still have senior payers who are affected by the past decade. After the years we are still relying on the kids to win the games. 

I know we are success starved and want instant results but it is another couple of years before our list gets to that point. Have patience and see it out. 

[Dr. Gonzo 22,628]

I think they'd be disappointed guys like Garland and Dunn haven't stepped up as they might have hoped. Adding those two (at their peak) back into the defense would add significant experience to what is a nursery of a backline.

[ArtificialWisdom 3,933]

5 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

We used to turn up thinking getting within 10 goals was a good effort. More often than not it was 80-100 point beltings. 

Too many people think that winning is the only sign of improvement. The reality is we have been 'in' every game excluding  3 maybe 4 right up until 3qtr time. Our percentage is actually pretty good, god only knows the last time it was 100+ for this long. We havent played 2 horrible games in a row. We have brought it right up to some pretty good teams, hopefully we can steal a result at some point. We all knew games like this were gonna happen, unfortunate it happened against the saints twice but why does everyone need to panic? We are gonna have more dissapointing losses doesnt mean we arn't improving.

[Lil_red_fire_engine 10,333]

The issue isn't leg speed, the issue is mature leadership. Leg speed is overrated, its speed of ball movement and execution that is important. Our speed of ball movement looked fine in the first but that and our execution went to water under pressure in the second. Why?  Because we lack mature leadership on the ground that can rally and coach mid quarter to change momentum of a game. No disrespect but Jones is not a natural leader or on field general, he has done his best to lead with his work ethic as the closest option we have had. We do not have mature players to direct us out of situations or  that demand the follow me attitude of the great leaders (although Viney is on the way). 

NB: Blind Freddy should be able to see our improvement not just in where we are wins and % at this time of year but in game style and list (which is still the youngest on the park week in week out).

 

[Akum 2,660]

10 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Too many people think that winning is the only sign of improvement. The reality is we have been 'in' every game excluding  3 maybe 4 right up until 3qtr time. Our percentage is actually pretty good, god only knows the last time it was 100+ for this long. We havent played 2 horrible games in a row. We have brought it right up to some pretty good teams, hopefully we can steal a result at some point. We all knew games like this were gonna happen, unfortunate it happened against the saints twice but why does everyone need to panic? We are gonna have more dissapointing losses doesnt mean we arn't improving.

I agree with this.

On the other hand, we haven't beaten anyone of note. We have 4 of our remaining games against teams in the 8.

We've been beaten against teams below us that have "hunted" us - that have done their homework and worked out how to put a spanner in our works. We have games to come against GCS & Carlton - teams below us who will do their homework against us, who will nullify Gawn & Viney & Hogan, will close up the corridor and try to run us off our feet by going wide.

If we don't win a game in each category, then all we've done is get back to 2010. Young team that at times have looked really exciting, but who have only potential to show for it, not results (at least in 2010 we smashed a top 4 team in the Swans). We've improved our performance but not our results, and to get any better results, we'll have to improve our performance at least as much again from this year to next year as we did fem last year to this year.

We all know what happened the first time around after 2010. At least this time we've got PJ.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Akum

[Tessaract 66]

Hogan must be traded. Overrated here. Cant take contested marks, protests everything, is spoilt child. Probably get required players in return as he has currency.

[Ethan Tremblay 28,535]

Just now, Tessaract said:

Hogan must be traded. Overrated here. Cant take contested marks, protests everything, is spoilt child. Probably get required players in return as he has currency.

Idiot.

[Jaded No More 59,127]

5 minutes ago, Tessaract said:

Hogan must be traded. Overrated here. Cant take contested marks, protests everything, is spoilt child. Probably get required players in return as he has currency.

Emergency call for a dislike button 

[jnrmac 19,324]

11 minutes ago, Tessaract said:

Hogan must be traded. Overrated here. Cant take contested marks, protests everything, is spoilt child. Probably get required players in return as he has currency.

Ha ha troll. Your posts are seriously pathetic

[dtrinh 71]

I think a big issue that we have, is our defensive structure and each players understanding of their role in the zone. When we turn the ball over and our players don't know which space to cover, the opposition usually cuts through our zone too easily. Compare this to the good teams such as Hawthorn, Adelaide and Sydney. Once they turn the ball over, the players spread quickly and to specific areas on the ground to cover space, thus locking the ball in. When Melbourne set up their zone well, we can be a difficult team to score against. However, a lot of the time our players don't know where to go and in the end our backman have to make up the difference and gradually cover opposition players further up the ground. Too often, we see two or three Melbourne players try and tackle one opposition player which then gives them the extra just out of the contest. If our players aren't able to lock the ball in then it's just a matter of the opposition picking out the free players as we rush to cover them. Unfortunately, a lot of the time this results in an 'over the top' goal where the player is running into fifty alone or a difficult one on one usually with OMac being the last defender. 

[Akum 2,660]

24 minutes ago, Tessaract said:

Hogan must be traded. Overrated here. Cant take contested marks, protests everything, is spoilt child. Probably get required players in return as he has currency.

I'd prefer we just work out how to get the ball to him competently so to give him half a chance against one (not three) opponents.

Or we unearth another two or three players from within or without who can deliver the ball to him as well as Jack Watts.

Each to his own, I guess. Blowing everything to smithereens has always helped in the past, hasn't it?

[Binmans PA 26,493]

22 hours ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

While there are structural issues still to resolve, the biggest issues are still in the midfield.  Our basic skills let us down time and time again.  The simplest things like picking up the ball cleanly and hitting targets are still letting us down.  Yes, we get caught out by the fast sides, but that pace would be less of an issue if we had better skills.  The Hawks aren't a quick side, nor are they contested beasts.  They win because every player in their side knows where they need to put the ball and they have the skills to do it.  Add to that their clean handling which buys them a little extra time and you see why they are dominant.  Our players generally have no idea where to put the ball to our team's advantage and even when they do few have the skill to execute. 

I must say though this is a particular feature of our new crop of midfielders. Petracca is one of the cleanest players I can remember and certainly the cleanest Melbourne player in my lifetime. Oliver rarely fumbles and Brayshaw is pretty good too.

This is why I don't stay down in the dumps too long after a loss. We have so much midfield talent, who are now finally being coached correctly and developed well. I love Viney, but the fact he's not even in the top 2 or 3 players I'm most excited about speaks volumes about the potential of this list. And before you go 'potential, potential, rah, rah, rah', take a seat and look at who is coaching them. A premiership coach in Roos (you don't fluke a flag) and one of, if not the best, development coaches in the last decade in Brendan McCartney. We are in good hands and we will get there, but with the majority of our better players still not past 30 games, there will be ups and downs.

17 hours ago, deanox said:

MFCSS at its finest. 

 

We are playing the youngest team in the comp week in week out. We gave up 18 months and 30 games experience to the saints. 

Did anyone envisage that after 3 years of Roos we'd have the youngest team? I doubt he did. I doubt Jackson did when he said we were aiming for finals.

This year has proven one thing only: we were worse that anyone thought. After 3 years we still have senior payers who are affected by the past decade. After the years we are still relying on the kids to win the games. 

I know we are success starved and want instant results but it is another couple of years before our list gets to that point. Have patience and see it out. 

See, I can't say for sure that Roos would have envisaged playing such an inexperienced team in his third year, but I'm sure he knew how deep an issue we had at the MFC (as signposted by PJ). Therefore, he and PJ quite deliberately but very cleverly undertook two years of defensive-minded football, making us more competitive, but never yielding great results, just steadily improve. In the meantime, this allowed us access to top talent in order to rebuild the list. 

What I can almost say for sure (given the man's seeming sharpness) is that when PJ made those finals remarks, he knew full-well that we probably weren't going to play finals this year. This probably would have been obvious to those associated with the list build at the end of year 2 or even at the end of year 1, the extent of the dearth of leadership at the club. Somewhere during this time (before the aspirational benchmark for finals in 2016 was laid) it seems that the path of youth being the best direction, would have been plainly obvious and the only alternative. But what would you have preferred him say? We're not aiming for finals?

[Chris 2,892]

11 hours ago, Akum said:

I agree with this.

On the other hand, we haven't beaten anyone of note. We have 4 of our remaining games against teams in the 8.

We've been beaten against teams below us that have "hunted" us - that have done their homework and worked out how to put a spanner in our works. We have games to come against GCS & Carlton - teams below us who will do their homework against us, who will nullify Gawn & Viney & Hogan, will close up the corridor and try to run us off our feet by going wide.

If we don't win a game in each category, then all we've done is get back to 2010. Young team that at times have looked really exciting, but who have only potential to show for it, not results (at least in 2010 we smashed a top 4 team in the Swans). We've improved our performance but not our results, and to get any better results, we'll have to improve our performance at least as much again from this year to next year as we did fem last year to this year.

We all know what happened the first time around after 2010. At least this time we've got PJ.

Getting back to where we were in 2010 is no mean feat! We got to a point where we were so bad 2010 was seen as the good old days of being a good footy club!

The next step is to go from 2010 back to 2000-2006 era (the good years in there, not the bad).

[drdrake 3,052]

On ‎19‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 11:25 AM, Dr. Gonzo said:

I think they'd be disappointed guys like Garland and Dunn haven't stepped up as they might have hoped. Adding those two (at their peak) back into the defense would add significant experience to what is a nursery of a backline.

This has been our issue every since David Neitz retired.  Our senior players and on field leadership have been disgusting over the past 10 years.  You can add in Dawes to that list, Grimes, Jones to me has had his worsted season for about 5-6 years, don't blame him he carried that midfield for a long period but some of his skill errors of late have been woeful.  We still have that gapping hole of quality footballers between the age of 24-28, really Jack Watts, Tom McDonald, Jetta and Max Gawn are the only players we have that are any good in that age gap no mids at all.  The 20-23 crop looks really strong Viney, Petracca, Hogan, Kent, Tyson, Brayshaw, Oliver, Hunt, Harmes and a few more that look like they will be OK

[Tessaract 66]

19 hours ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Idiot.

Thanks handsome.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

We really haven't had much consistent form or leadership from senior guys this season. Jones and Vince aren't as often "the guys" anymore as we've given more midfield time to younger players but one week they're looking like stars and then the next they've lost their appetite and are looking clueless with the ball. No Dunn or Garland in defence. Lumumba and Pedersen have barely gotten on the park. Garlett was dropped and has gone missing more often this season.The bulk of the work is really given to guys <25, who are a talented bunch, but it seems like the guys who are meant to be leading the way don't want to be involved. So it's hard to know where we go from here, do we erase the trace of the past and get even younger? Or persist with older guys?. (or maybe look for some in the offseason) I'd give Dunn and Lumumba (if fit) another shot but I don't know what the quickest way to being a good side is.

[deanox 8,780]

On Wednesday, July 20, 2016 at 1:05 AM, AdamFphlebeb said:

...

See, I can't say for sure that Roos would have envisaged playing such an inexperienced team in his third year, but I'm sure he knew how deep an issue we had at the MFC (as signposted by PJ). Therefore, he and PJ quite deliberately but very cleverly undertook two years of defensive-minded football, making us more competitive, but never yielding great results, just steadily improve. In the meantime, this allowed us access to top talent in order to rebuild the list. 

What I can almost say for sure (given the man's seeming sharpness) is that when PJ made those finals remarks, he knew full-well that we probably weren't going to play finals this year. This probably would have been obvious to those associated with the list build at the end of year 2 or even at the end of year 1, the extent of the dearth of leadership at the club. Somewhere during this time (before the aspirational benchmark for finals in 2016 was laid) it seems that the path of youth being the best direction, would have been plainly obvious and the only alternative. But what would you have preferred him say? We're not aiming for finals?

Nah I'm happy he said them. Set us something to aim for for once. 

 

I'm trying to tell everyone else to cslm down. That we are on the right track and that it will take time. 

 

Try rereading my post!

[titan_uranus 22,766]

On 7/19/2016 at 10:22 PM, Akum said:

I agree with this.

On the other hand, we haven't beaten anyone of note. We have 4 of our remaining games against teams in the 8.

We've been beaten against teams below us that have "hunted" us - that have done their homework and worked out how to put a spanner in our works. We have games to come against GCS & Carlton - teams below us who will do their homework against us, who will nullify Gawn & Viney & Hogan, will close up the corridor and try to run us off our feet by going wide.

If we don't win a game in each category, then all we've done is get back to 2010. Young team that at times have looked really exciting, but who have only potential to show for it, not results (at least in 2010 we smashed a top 4 team in the Swans). We've improved our performance but not our results, and to get any better results, we'll have to improve our performance at least as much again from this year to next year as we did fem last year to this year.

We all know what happened the first time around after 2010. At least this time we've got PJ.

Pretending the GWS game didn't happen? Or writing it off because Round 1 is some paranormal disturbance whereas Rounds 2 onwards are normality?

[John Crow Batty 8,305]

22 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Pretending the GWS game didn't happen? Or writing it off because Round 1 is some paranormal disturbance whereas Rounds 2 onwards are normality?

Well it has been normality since then. 

[Soidee 1,496]

On 19 July 2016 at 1:05 PM, big_red_fire_engine said:

The issue isn't leg speed, the issue is mature leadership. Leg speed is overrated, its speed of ball movement and execution that is important. Our speed of ball movement looked fine in the first but that and our execution went to water under pressure in the second. Why?  Because we lack mature leadership on the ground that can rally and coach mid quarter to change momentum of a game. No disrespect but Jones is not a natural leader or on field general, he has done his best to lead with his work ethic as the closest option we have had. We do not have mature players to direct us out of situations or  that demand the follow me attitude of the great leaders (although Viney is on the way). 

NB: Blind Freddy should be able to see our improvement not just in where we are wins and % at this time of year but in game style and list (which is still the youngest on the park week in week out).

 

If you don't think leg speed is an issue you were not watching last weeks game.  The run and spread of Saints made us look like molasses.  The saints players ran fast to open spaces while our guys were 20-30 metres of the pace.  Our team rarely spread, and rarely have the speed to get ahead of opposition players.  It's an issue that cannot be ignored. Take a close look at this weeks game against the Eagles, they will out run us all day.

Edited July 20, 2016 by Soidee