Tough and Brutal Footy

[Scoop Junior 3,415]

We all know toughness in footy is critical, but two comments I've heard recently have really reinforced this and brought it back to the surface.

First, in the NAB Cup match between the Dogs and Pies, Heath Shaw and Jarrad Grant were chasing after the ball as it trickled over the boundary. As it went out, Shaw gave Grant a hard shove off the ball. Grant got up and just ran back to position without retaliating.

Dermie saw this incident, was clearly unimpressed with Grant's lack of reaction and said something like "see that, Grant has done nothing back to Shaw, Shaw would be thinking, 'I've got him now'". Dwayne Russell responded by saying that maybe Grant just wanted to get on with his own game and not get distracted by stuff like that, to which Dermie responded "well, that may be the case, but I'm yet to see a premiership side that doesn't antagonise the opposition".

Second, Kevin Sheedy in his pre-match address to the GWS players emphatically said the line "do not let your opponent dominate you". Sheedy also said the following in relation to the McDonald incident "All the best teams over the decades play hard, tough football." "Geelong do it, Brisbane's premiership teams did it. It's the only way to win finals."

There wouldn't be too many who have a better knowledge of what it takes to win finals and Grand Finals than a bloke who has won five of them as a player and a coach who has won four.

In my years of watching the Demons, the only time I can recall us being a tough and brutal team was in the Northey years. Sure we've had some very good teams since and plenty of tough and brutal players, but as a team I don't think anyone in the AFL would have regarded us as a tough and brutal team in the last 20 years.

You can have all the talent in the world, but a purely talented team without the necessary toughness won't get the job done when it counts. Sheedy and Brereton know this and that's why they made the comments above.

For the record I am not just referring to going in hard - footballers are brave and courageous and put their bodies on the line (our players included). And I am not saying we are soft. My reference to 'tough and brutal' is about taking it to the next level - it's about wanting to hurt, to antagonise, to dominate the opposition.

There is nothing new in this, but because we have been so bad recently all the focus has been on getting the skill and the talent of the side in order. And make no mistake, this should be a key focus area because it's critically important. A tough side without the talent is going nowhere fast.

But what I'd really like to see this year, other than the obvious improvement in the team as it adjusts to a new style of footy, is the MFC starting to become a tough and brutal side again. I'm not calling for thuggery and behind the play stuff, but rather an uncompromising attack on the ball and a willingness and desire to hit hard and hurt the opposition when they have it. And not to let the opposition dominate us.

[The Song Formerly Known As 6,479]

Would love to see out boys have a bit of mongrel about them this year (fairly of course) as the MFC are unfortunately usually perceived to be a "soft" team.

At the moment Beamer and Tapscott are the only two with a bit of mongrel in my opinion. But I can also see Mitch Clarke having the same tenacity about him too.

Hopefully more follow suit!

Edited March 26, 2012 by Moluck

[darkhorse72 1,873]

spot on, i agree with sheedy 100%

[hardtack 10,441]

spot on, i agree with sheedy 100%

That's all well and good as long as you realise that the MRP may not agree with your point of view and you don't mind playing the odd fortnight or so without your hard at it players. Tough is good, reckless is foolhardy.

[frankie_d 1,471]

this.

[drdrake 3,137]

In Hawthorn's recent premiership they were the UnSocial football club. It was a tag they loved, they had a few suspensions a long the way but the intimidated weaker opponents. I rememeber a few years back David Neitz made a statement in an opening game V Hawthorn it was a big hit and goal it set the tone for the year.

IMO there is two types af toughness, one is the hardness at the footy and contest and the other is the ability to work hard through out the match more mental toughness. We lacked both last year, I'm a firm believer we have talent this is where we improve.

[DemonWA 3,889]

I remember a fair few games during the Daniher (or balme?) years where Neita and the Ox would throw their weight around with great effect. We'd be seemingly down and out and they'd just start hurting blokes and the whole team would lift with them.

Good times

[Sir Why You Little 36,761]

Neeld will be aware of what Sheeds said....I agree with it too...Nice Teams do not win Flags...That does not mean Thuggery...it means owning & defeating your oponent..each and every player. Brereton knew that one very well

To do that you must be mentally Tough & Fit.

Edited March 26, 2012 by why you little

[Dr. Gonzo 23,925]

You'd think we would have learnt our lesson after 2000 but nothing changed after that. I agree with the sentiments of Dermie and Sheedy - look at Port and Essendon as well as North & WCE in the 90's all had the trademark "tough and brutal" teams not just players.

[Roger Mellie 3,903]

I believe we have a few of those players already - such as Tapscott, Moloney, Clark and big Spencil;

We have players who have it in them - Sylvia, Jetta, Trengove, Rivers

We have players who play hard footy but are totally focussed on the ball and the game rather than taking out/owning an opponent - Bartram , Jones, McKenzie,;

We have players who are good footballers but are none of the above - yet?

[s-t-i-n-g-a 439]

Do you mean like being the hardest team to play against?

[Longsufferingnomore 1,622]

Do you mean like being the hardest team to play against?

I think some of you are forgetting that it is a different era. We all loved going to the footy and watching the hard and tough football of Dermie's era but if you played like that today there is no way you would be playing the following week or the week after.

I want to see hard crunching fair tackling. I want to see everyone emulate Frawley's run down the wing at the MCG. I want to see everyone give 110% like Jonesy does when he comes off the ground nearly heaving. I want to see everyone in and support a mate when someone gets crunched unfairly like Strauss was on Saturday and everyone was in to back their mate. I want to see everyone at the end of a game exhausted because they have given everything they had and more like they were against Collingwood. I want to see tough football but I also want to see them play not sitting in the stand. The game is far more sanitised today and lets face it Sheedy and Dermy both live in their pasts.

[s-t-i-n-g-a 439]

Although players will no doubt walk a fine line...I don't think getting suspended is what is being suggested here...

Edit - never mind we are saying the same thing...

Edited March 26, 2012 by s-t-i-n-g-a

[Flemo56 396]

I reckon it's as simple as, "never shirk a contest-wanna own it".

I still reckon we are too lean and need a lot more upper body strength, would assume we are probably one of the lighter teams running round, (I'm not big on research, surf ,golf takes a lot of time u no....lol). Tappys size + Rangas desire= Scary

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

A definite must if we're going to snare the big one. We have to dominate in all aspects of the game in order to beat our opponents at the highest level, including the hardness factor.

We should be playing "Like Demons" every week anyway i would've thought. Hopefully this will be one of Neeld's non negotiables for ALL players wishing to pull on the red and the blue from here. We have some tough fellas, eg., Tappy, McKenzie, Beamer and Jones. But Beamer seems to be the only antagonist in most games, so maybe time for a little more "agro" and "fly the flag" licence given to the others listed above as well as Jamar/Sylvia etc

[GolfBoyPro 43]

James Magner was recruited because we are as soft as butter. Completely agree with your post Scoop Junior, great post!!! We still need a couple more tough nuts i reckon...

[Courtney_Fish 183]

Dermie saw this incident, was clearly unimpressed with Grant's lack of reaction and said something like "see that, Grant has done nothing back to Shaw, Shaw would be thinking, 'I've got him now'". Dwayne Russell responded by saying that maybe Grant just wanted to get on with his own game and not get distracted by stuff like that, to which Dermie responded "well, that may be the case, but I'm yet to see a premiership side that doesn't antagonise the opposition".

That's rubbish. What should Grant have done; gone back and pushed him? Big deal. Grant did the best thing by concentrating on his job. Shaw would most probably have thought "I didn't upset this guy" and thought no more about it.

A few years back I saw Phil Read shove St Kilda's Harvey over and land on his bum. It was funny. No rection from Harvey. Not even a change in expression. A minute or two later the ball came back and Harvey kicked an insptrational goal. That's how you pay it back.

The best way to upset your opponent besides playing well is whatever Dunn seems to do very well.

[Good Times Grimes 2,396]

I think that Neeld is well aware of all this and we will be seeing a new attitude over the coming years.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Niggles off the ball are useless, not tough and brutal. Dermie craps on.

If you chase tackle, harass, spoil, run hard and kick goals then you are a chance at dominating your opposition, which in turn can really antagonise them. Of course we need more of this.

Edited March 26, 2012 by dandeeman

[dee-luded 2,959]

We all know toughness in footy is critical, but two comments I've heard recently have really reinforced this and brought it back to the surface.

First, in the NAB Cup match between the Dogs and Pies, Heath Shaw and Jarrad Grant were chasing after the ball as it trickled over the boundary. As it went out, Shaw gave Grant a hard shove off the ball. Grant got up and just ran back to position without retaliating.

Dermie saw this incident, was clearly unimpressed with Grant's lack of reaction and said something like "see that, Grant has done nothing back to Shaw, Shaw would be thinking, 'I've got him now'". Dwayne Russell responded by saying that maybe Grant just wanted to get on with his own game and not get distracted by stuff like that, to which Dermie responded "well, that may be the case, but I'm yet to see a premiership side that doesn't antagonise the opposition".

Second, Kevin Sheedy in his pre-match address to the GWS players emphatically said the line "do not let your opponent dominate you". Sheedy also said the following in relation to the McDonald incident "All the best teams over the decades play hard, tough football." "Geelong do it, Brisbane's premiership teams did it. It's the only way to win finals."

There wouldn't be too many who have a better knowledge of what it takes to win finals and Grand Finals than a bloke who has won five of them as a player and a coach who has won four.

In my years of watching the Demons, the only time I can recall us being a tough and brutal team was in the Northey years. Sure we've had some very good teams since and plenty of tough and brutal players, but as a team I don't think anyone in the AFL would have regarded us as a tough and brutal team in the last 20 years.

You can have all the talent in the world, but a purely talented team without the necessary toughness won't get the job done when it counts. Sheedy and Brereton know this and that's why they made the comments above.

For the record I am not just referring to going in hard - footballers are brave and courageous and put their bodies on the line (our players included). And I am not saying we are soft. My reference to 'tough and brutal' is about taking it to the next level - it's about wanting to hurt, to antagonise, to dominate the opposition.

There is nothing new in this, but because we have been so bad recently all the focus has been on getting the skill and the talent of the side in order. And make no mistake, this should be a key focus area because it's critically important. A tough side without the talent is going nowhere fast.

But what I'd really like to see this year, other than the obvious improvement in the team as it adjusts to a new style of footy, is the MFC starting to become a tough and brutal side again. I'm not calling for thuggery and behind the play stuff, but rather an uncompromising attack on the ball and a willingness and desire to hit hard and hurt the opposition when they have it. And not to let the opposition dominate us.

Your spot on 'scoop junior', and that is one of the Main reasons we lost to the hawks in 1988. They came back at us hard, after we all but took them out in the '87 Prelim.

We have never been a truly rugged club in the sense as th Hawks have been since Kennedy - Jeans...

It's time we got over our kindness on the park & want blood.

We can keep the kindness for our Off Field issues and benefits. No more choir boys in the Red 'n' Blue.

Passion!!!

[old dee 23,560]

Your spot on 'scoop junior', and that is one of the Main reasons we lost to the hawks in 1988. They came back at us hard, after we all but took them out in the '87 Prelim.

We have never been a truly rugged club in the sense as th Hawks have been since Kennedy - Jeans...

It's time we got over our kindness on the park & want blood.

We can keep the kindness for our Off Field issues and benefits. No more choir boys in the Red 'n' Blue.

Passion!!!

Could not agree more dee-luded.

The only problems is some of the choir boys will have to be replaced and that cannot be achieved quickly.

[jnrmac 19,944]

You'd think we would have learnt our lesson after 2000 but nothing changed after that. I agree with the sentiments of Dermie and Sheedy - look at Port and Essendon as well as North & WCE in the 90's all had the trademark "tough and brutal" teams not just players.

Not sure how old you are Dr G but some of you have incredibly short memories...in 2000 we had Bizzell at CHB and Robbo at CHF - both round 6'2". It was clear we had to build a spine and get some inside players.

2000 draft we recruited Scott Thompson - a great inside midfielder. The scumbag left us high and dry.

2001 Luke MOlan sadly was injury prone and a waste of a number 9 pick. But he was recruited as a big bodied KPP.

2002 we took Nick Smith at 15. never made it but was recruited as a hard bodied KPP.

2003 saw us take Sylvia and McLean - two hard bodied potential insiders. McLean was terrific for us for a while but injuries and pace meant he was on the outer. Sylvia has never come in as we would have anticipated.

2004 We recruited Bate and Dunn who have been overall disappointing for two 192/193cm players with bigger bodies.

So don't say we didn't learn our lesson and seek out hard bodied players - it's just not true. The fact that our drafting was poor and we had some poor luck with Thompson are more the case.

Edited March 26, 2012 by jnrmac

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You can have all the talent in the world, but a purely talented team without the necessary toughness won't get the job done when it counts. Sheedy and Brereton know this and that's why they made the comments above.

For the record I am not just referring to going in hard - footballers are brave and courageous and put their bodies on the line (our players included). And I am not saying we are soft. My reference to 'tough and brutal' is about taking it to the next level - it's about wanting to hurt, to antagonise, to dominate the opposition.

Good post Scoop. I would hope that attitude comes with the growing maturity of the list and the guidance of Neeld.

Your spot on 'scoop junior', and that is one of the Main reasons we lost to the hawks in 1988. They came back at us hard, after we all but took them out in the '87 Prelim.

We lost to the Hawks in 1988 because we were not good enough all around the ground. We played arguably one of the greatest teams assembled in the AFL. They were clinical and superior in every facet.

The only problems is some of the choir boys will have to be replaced and that cannot be achieved quickly.

Did some one steal your keyboard OD? You're normally better than trotting out cliches like that.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Could not agree more dee-luded.

The only problems is some of the choir boys will have to be replaced and that cannot be achieved quickly.

Many you can convert into players.

Their desire to play outweighs their dislike for the hard stuff. (see army vets)

The strong use of the reserves helps here, to convince these boys of whatts rquired.

[Nasher 33,607]

Not sure how old you are Dr G but some of you have incredibly short memories...in 2000 we had Bizzell at CHB and Robbo at CHF - both round 6'2". It was clear we had to build a spine and get some inside players.

Obviously you include yourself in those with short memories, as in 2000 we had a guy named Anthony Ingerson at CHB and another guy named David Schwarz at CHF - you may have heard of them? Clint Biz played 20 games in 2000... for Geelong. He came to the club in 2002.