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Further to that, I think there are a couple of things that are really in Brown's favour. Look at the best big forwards this year: Hawkins, Kennedy and Dixon. They are 32, 33 and 30, respectively and you could argue that they are in the form of their careers because the game for forwards has moved away from speed and more towards strength and competing for the aerial ball. Ben Brown is 27 and arguably coming into 5 years of his best football. Another thing is that he's a really good converter. When the scoring is low in big finals this becomes more important. More so for low possession big forwards. Brown has always kind of annoyed me because I don't like how he exaggerates free kicks. I'm a bit old school like that. But there are good reasons he gets all those free kicks, which are as valuable as a contested mark when the ball comes in long: he's very tall, he uses this advantage by marking at the highest point, and he fights really hard for front position. Defenders get nervous around him because he's huge, has long arms and it's impossible to defend from behind unless you infringe (like holding an arm, pushing in the back, chopping the arms). His presence makes us immediately more dangerous up forward, allowing us to set our team up more defensively. I think this suits us, because we have some special players that can win us territory (Gawn and mids) and a strong defence that can push up to give us repeat entries. Our poor forward line hasn't allowed us to capitalise and we've had to score goals on the counter attack to be competitive. But with a genuine big forward we can play the territory game and wins games by attrition like, say, Richmond.

zzzzzzz (snore) zzzzzzoooommeeting are we there yet? Ben Brown meets with Melbourne a post script: on a side note, I often talk about whether the organisation fits YOUR culture vs whether you fit the culture of an organisation. I find it rather saddening/hilarious that the 'story' that is put in the media (if it is true re: the treatment of Ben Brown and his family after the death of a child) is that the club are choosing to offload him. It clearly should be he is walking away from a culture that was unsupportive of his context, and from that the relationship was unrepairable.

It's a hard one. I think it depends on a whole bunch of stuff that we just don't know. Things like our salary position, his salary demands, his injuries, what players we can move on, what other players are coming in, what it will take to trade for him, how we are intending to play next year etc. The most important things are his injury, our salary position and his salary. If all of that checks out then I think I'd do the deal because it's just so difficult to get players that fill the position that he does as an effective long ball target. Of the top 4, Lynch and Hawkins are in the GF and Dixon probably should have been, plus Brisbane is throwing a Hail Mary for Daniher. Who else is out there that can do this? Kennedy, the Kings, McKay .... Brown. Not much else. I think it would require a bit of a juggle to make our forward line work well but it's definitely solvable. Effectively we could make it the 2018 forward line (in style) with Brown/Weid instead of Hogan/TMac. I'd rather free Jackson of the responsibility of being a structural player up forward because it would detract from his uniqueness and flexibility. What it would require is a shift towards high pressure small forwards who can feed off these, lock the ball and force repeat forward entries.

Would be great to have a single thread where those who feel they have an inside word on trade gossip have a place to share it free of argument or discussion etc. Sauces are great but not necessary. I get tired of constantly opening the individual player threads every day hoping for some news and it's just people bitching about Simon Goodwin and the credibility of other posters. Put it here and we can all just accept it or dismiss it and move on, even if it's in riddle-form. For the record I have zero links to the club whatsoever, but appreciate other posters who take the time to pass on what they've heard, whether it's credible or not.

I’m ok with 3 years. Smith playing mostly VFL footy in the 3rd year is no worse than having the Wagners and KK on the list in 2020. And a 3 time premiership player can still provide a little more off field leadership and mentorship than say the Wagner brothers.

@Lord Nev did mention this a week ago that he met with the club via zoom with Gawn, Mahoney and Goody!

This year we were ranked 5th in marks inside 50 per game (9.1 per game). We also ranked 6th in marks inside 50 per forward entry (marking on 21.4% of our inside 50s).

Interesting comparison. Jesse has a lot in common with Croad....if you know what I mean. More chance he moves to Byron with Wattsy and does nothing than play for Melbourne

It's a no brainer offering him a 3 year deal, particularly given that: it seems 2 years won't get him across the line; he'll most likely be good for another 3 years, particularly with Burgess managing him; we have a desperate need for the bloke; and like Lewis, he'll bring much needed on-field coaching knowledge and experience. I will be absolutely stoked if we land this guy.

I heard the Dockers have been managing (for some time) the amount of games he got to play in so he was unable to meet the KPI’s linked to both remuneration and contract extension triggers. Essentially performance managing him out the door.

If that trick is taking marks inside the fwd 50 and slotting goals, where do I pay my $5 to go for a ride?

Points conceded from defensive half turnovers 2019: 30.7 (#18) 2020: 17.6 (#4)

Can confirm this is true.

I'd like 40-50 good games from Smith. That would be highly beneficial on a wing opposite Langdon. As a supporter, why would I care if he's given 2 years or 3 ? What's it to me (his length of contract) if he gives 40-50 good games ?

Agree - Especially at that stage of his life, he needs to make sure that Melbourne fit him and his family. Think back to May talking about Melksham's kid running around in the hub. If he feels supported and that his child (they were meant to have twins) can spend the first few years of their life in this environment as well, will be important factors. I think that football wise he fits at the club for all the reasons discussed, he is the right age for our list as well, and we have the picks/players to get him. The question is culture, and if he and we believe this is the place for him to finish his career. Lewis thought so, Landgon thought so, Tomlinson thought so. I hope that Brown does as well.

Let's not forget a couple of things about Jackson; 1. He is a kid that is still developing. He has shown he will make it, let's get him working on his craft now. Easier to do that either at Casey, or if he's performing, as the 3rd tall. 2. On that 3rd tall call, he's not your ordinary tall. We can afford to go in to a game with Gawn rucking, and (Ben) Brown, Weid and Jackson in the forward line. It can work, and importantly, it will work. Moral of my story? We need to get Ben Brown. Totally irrationally, he has irritated me all his career, but I can warm to him if he's a Demon.

Might also put paid to any interest that the Saints had in Brown - you couldn't imagine they'd be able to fit both he and Crouch into their salary cap after bringing in Hill and Zak Jones last year.

The next line's probably applicable as well

Fair enough then, all jokes aside. No means no.

It would spark some reflux for me if we offered that.

As the posts after yours show, this isn't a good argument. Their list screamed anything other than "top 4 and four-year dynasty" in 2016, but all of the following were on their 2016 list: Vlastuin, Grimes, Martin, Riewoldt, Cotchin, Edwards, Astbury, Houli, Rioli, Rance, Lambert, McIntosh, Broad, Short, Castagna and Soldo). The majority of that group are a win away from becoming triple premiership players. At the time they also had Deledio, Ellis, Grigg, Townsend and Butler - all 2017 premiership players bar Deledio. That list had taken them to three years of finals but no wins (2013-15) followed by a shocker of a 2016. That's a mid-table four-year run. A bit like what we've had (2017, 2018 and 2020 were all mid-table finishes, with 2018 buoyed by the two finals wins, and 2019 being a disastrous shocker). We've seen enough from the core of our list to suggest we've got what it takes. We've been thereabouts for four years, like they were. We've got obvious talent, like they did. We've shown glimpses, like they did. None of this is to suggest we're guarantees to make it, it's just to dispel the notion that our list definitely isn't good enough. I don't buy that argument.

I was at a supporters function a couple of years back with a senior employee and it's fair to say that the MFC did a very good job of keeping Hogan's issues under wraps. He was often an off-field challenge. There's a reason a contracted player was traded.

Surprised by the pessimism about Jesse here. He was an elite talent and can be again. Never any trouble for us other than he wanted to go home. He’s had a tough time at Freo. Got a serious injury early, too much time on his hands back in the home town, the club put no support structures around him by the sounds of it. Freo was the wrong club for him. He should never have went there. Jesse left home at 17, obviously missed his family and Perth, lost his dad who was a massive influence on him tragically, had a cancer scare himself. Could you blame him if he struggled mentally. Wouldn’t surprise me if he’s still trying to process all that grief and loss. He’s had to deal with more by the age of 23 than most of us deal with in a lifetime. Surely with all the money swilling around the AFL there are resources and professionals available to help him straighten his head out.Get him focused again. If he doesn’t rejoin us I think the Swans would be a great fit. They have a strong culture and history of rehabilitating players. They'll give him the support he needs. He'll be out of the limelight as well in sydney. I'm certainly not prepared to write off his AFL career and wouldn’t be surprised if he blossomed there. Anyways I hope he’s happy whatever he decides to do.

I was thinking "Groundhog Day" at the beginning of the week... I've since learned three classical languages as well as Japanese and Mandarin, can play most of Beethoven's catalogue and have obtained my commercial pilot's license.

heart says go for it head says red flags everywhere last year i let heart win for hb, this years it's the head's turn to win

Pending fitness, I now think Brown is a must. With our list I genuinely think our window for a premiership is now, however our forward line with Weideman and Jackson in my opinion is too immature and would rely on some drastic improvement from both players. This is both unrealistic and unfair on both in my opinion. We may have seen the best of McDonald and Petty is promising but unproven. We can't afford to wait 5 years for Jackson to be an established KPF, particularly as he may play more midfield anyway, while Weideman needs help from a mature Key forward. Brown instantly makes our forward line more potent and gives Weideman the second defender with Jackson having the ability to play as a mobile third tall and have flexibility around the ground. Brown, outside of Cameron, is the best key forward available on the market; I hope like hell we're doing our best to get him.

I actually believe it is for other reasons than good/bad delivery, but we are very likely to be no better or worse than other teams at hitting leading forwards. I just find comments 'Not sure our midfield could hit a leading forward' etc to be unnecessarily defeatist and it tends to irk me. The fact that we were able to have good mark inside 50/retention numbers without a dominant forward tends to say that we certainly aren't much worse at it than the league average and certainly better than Brown's current club, North. I think it's because we scored a lot on the rebound where we were able to avoid contested situations inside 50 more often than many teams. The fact that a small key forward in Fritsch was able to lead our goal kicking probably indicates this, but it also points towards our delivery not being terrible. Why are we prioritising a KPF? I'd say it's to allow us to kick the ball longer into the forward line and not having to rely on our ability to spot up smaller targets. Some of the best teams with multiple big key forwards (Richmond and Port) actually ranked lower for forward 50 retention (10th - 20.7% and 14th - 18.4% respectively) because their big forwards create contests that their smalls can capitalise on. Our forward setup involves tall/medium forwards marking the ball or the ball being rebounded. Getting a big forward allows us to set up more defensively ie, lock the ball inside 50, inside 50 stoppages and repeat entries. Ironically getting a big forward probably will result in us marking the ball less inside 50! ?

This one is first hand... I saw Sam Frost yesterday when walking through Elwood. Can confirm he still has a gigantic set of ears on him.

For months I have been dead against having Hogan back on the basis that he appears to require the use of too many club resources, particulalry to help him with his off-field behaviour. Yet, the moment I heard that Fremantle has confirmed that they would be interested in trading him, my brain's first thought was that I hope he comes back to us. This is why passionate Melbourne supporters should not make list decisions! And now that the adrenaline or dopamine or whatever it was that triggered that emotional response has gone, I'm once again of the view that his future is not with us. I just hope that he can be happy within himself whatever happens from here.

It depends on how we want to play. If we play end to end transition football (like we did in the last two games this year) then he's a possible option because he is fast and gets on the end of handball chains to finish. But when the play closes up he's next to useless due to his lack of agility (he's a very straight line player). He won 13 contested possessions for the entire season (6 games) of which nearly half (6) came in a single wet Cairns game against Freo. He has also had just 7 tackles for the year, with over half (4) coming the Geelong game. So, in effect, he's a low possession finisher if we play a very specific way but offers nothing in any other way. If we choose to play the end to end footy we played in the last two games then I can see an argument to perhaps keep him on the list, although I think it would be touch and go. But under any other circumstances I don't think I'd keep him because I think we could pick up others that would offer us more of what we need from a small forward.

Jesse Hogan at 60% is still better than anyone else on offer. Give him a 12 month contract

You can look that up for yourself if you want to know, I'm not your personal google. Clearly though, logic says if you're turning it over less in your defensive half then you're scoring more from the defensive half also. Our defensive half was miles better this year.

I think he’s worth keeping but the faults in his game keep him out of the side for a reason. Goals and disposals are going to wax and wane for a half forward, pressure is where you have to make your mark consistently. And for all his pace Hunt is an ineffective pressure player. Whether that’s lack of tank, lack of smarts, poor lateral movement or poor tackling I don’t know. If he can fix his defensive pressure he’s good enough on the lead and dangerous with his pace so he’ll always offer something in attack.

All quiet on the Western Front here... seems a done deal according to most. 3 years is probably a stretch, but it will be good to have another player from that successful Hawthorn environment teaching our youngsters.

I thought this was interedting: Weideman was "the target inside 50 on 93 occasions, taking 25 marks in the arc". That put him 10th in the league for marks inside 50 third year per game. He is also holding on to more than 1 in 4 marking attempts in the forward 50. He kicked 19.8 and 5 goal assists. I can't remeber many shots from outside 50. So be is converting from those opportunities. He was 17th in goals per game with 1.46. Only 6 players were above 1.8. (Jayden Hunt snuck in with 1.67 from 6 games). It would be nice if he was Hawkins or Kennedy, but outside of the top 3-4, he was statistically on par with the next group in 2020. We have a lot more worries then Weideman.

We have to get Brown. No guarantee Weid kicks on. LJ will be needed in the ruck when Gawn is injured/rested. And LJ himself is coming off a bad hammy. We havent had a player kick 60+ goals in as many seasons as Brown since Neitz was running around. Before that who knows, might need to go back to Fred Fanning. Come on down, Benny brown!

If we got him back, one thing would be completely different to last time we had him - he would not be being white-anted by Fremantle trying to sell him an unrealistic heaven in Perth. So he got sold something - welcome to the advertising age! If he came back, he would not be constantly having his eyes drawn away. We might see a single-focused Jesse - and not the disillusioned Jesse he appears to have been in Perth. Plus - Harley Bennell came within a whisker of making it. Why can't Jesse actually do it? If he's keen, and MFC is keen, it's an absolute no-brainer to welcome him back. The potential win is so great, we would have to take the chance.

Fremantle wanted Hogan for years. They get Hogan who underperforms and has several off-field indiscretions. Fremantle then want to offload him whilst still contracted. The mind boggles that people would welcome him back.

No. They got rid of Watts and Hogan for cultural reasons. They want to be a serious football club.

We've got a few fringe 24-26yo one club players who have been on our list for quite a while and just haven't been able to establish a role - Hannan, Hunt, ANB, OMac. I think they owe it to themselves to try to ply their trade elsewhere. Some make make a decent career elsewhere but I don't think we'll really miss any of them.

brown did pretty well with north's inefficient kicks i50 reckon he'd do pretty well with ours too

The bloke isn't driven by success. He left a team he thought was on the cusp of serious success off the back of a prelim to join a bottom club back in his home state. He let Tom McDonald take over as the big dog in the forward-line when he was still the main man. He's at best half-dedicated. Put simply, in football terms, right now he's a loser. The club won't entertain the idea, because they're not stupid.

One of the biggest myths in footy I reckon. North's midfield have woeful skills, yet Brown has consistently kicked 60 goals a year. Good key forwards kick goals no matter who is delivering it to them. Hell, Mitch Clark was averaging over 2 goals a game for us before he broke his foot circa 2012, and that was in one of the worst teams ever fielded.

I hope he stays.. he showed more grit and desire in his 6 games than Melksham did all year. Hunt 6 games - 10 goals Melksham 17 games - 15 goals. I was really disappointed in Melksham this year, did so many silly things. Hunt has some x-factor. Hope he stays.

There’s more to it than eyes for the same girl, including some unwanted advances. They did fall out over it and it was one of the main reasons Langdon wanted out of WA. Blakely is a pass or Langdon walks.

Back at ya PSD.

Maybe we need a thread for hindsight drafting, where we have to declare who we would take with our picks from at least 8 years ago.

Yep it looks like we hit the jackpot with him. He's still only a kid though so we don't want him banged about too much. I reckon CHF is his go. He can go high to get a kick or start things moving if necessary . Limited ruck time.

Just want to mention that the 'less miles on the legs because he didn't play AFL level until 21' is completely irrelevant to how likely it is that he picks up soft tissue injuries or loses speed now that he is 31.

Don't know if this has been stated before, but a friend with Hawthorn connections has said Smith is 99% going to Melbourne