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3x Premiership Winner, Team Of The Century half back, Captain, the list goes on. Passed away yesterday at the age of 95. Vale.

Time to crawl back into that hole you live in and hopefully not ever come out.

I'd also like to think that no one who is 'pro-loading' thinks it's the only contributing factor to losses. Those same folk who are pro-loading probably recognise that we had injuries in game post our 10-0 run. They like to ask questions around, how is it that we got to 30 points up and then got comfortably reeled in by Freo in quick time... what contributed to that... and then don't just dismiss it by 'poor form' or 'not hungry' or 'drinking-bathwater'. They recognise that Chris Scott (other coaches etc) and the FD did some things around midfield set-ups that we were either unable to or didn't counteract. The recognise Goodwin constantly talking about 'connection'. Serious question. What are the factors that contribute to the unoperationalised notional phrase 'poor form in your opinion? I for one am not a person to look at a bunch of matches and explain it away as 'merely' poor form. For me it is an overarching phrase that is ultimately meaningless. Players don't lose their skill all of a sudden...nor can they keep effort and pressure up every single game for the entire season... and what things impact on effort and pressure? Things such as health, fatigue, illness, psychological factors of willingness, being aligned to your values....what the other team brings on the day themselves in relation to the 5 things just mentioned. This thread ultimately isn't focused on outcomes of matches. It's a 'sense making tool' of how things have come to pass. It's using objectivity and science and the reality of what occurs within the industry. Loading wasn't spoken about pre 2020 when we'd be inconsistent as ferk, or at least consistently getting rolled by teams. The fact that we've had two years of 10-0 starts, slumps from rounds 11-19, (11-16 this year) is markedly different from years ( 2005-2018) when by round 10 we would probably 4-6 if not 2-8. So it's useful to start to inspect things and be curious. Things have changed, unless of course two years of 10-0 are explained as being lucky and or a fluke (maybe due to the draw?)...so then I become curious as to how did the 10-0 come to pass? It's good to be curious about how humans perform under scrutiny, particularly in extreme athletic environments. 🙂

It is still beyond me why people are calling for Brown to be dropped. Yes he has underperformed over the past month or so - but this is largely due to the fact that he has been missing the vital blocking and support that TMac provides. This is especially the case when our strategy of bombing it down the line results in our talls getting double and triple teamed by opposition defenders. Brown played his best footy in weeks in the first half against Geelong and he is too important to our structure to drop. Regarding Weid or JVR, for me it really comes down to how Goody and co. are viewing Weid and his position at the club. If they have faith that he can still become a best 22 forward - whether it is this year or next - they play him. However, if he still hasn't shown enough to warrant selection - especially when we were so exposed for height last week - we go JVR and I think that all but spells the end for Weid's time at the club, at least as anything more than a depth VFL player.

Hey thanks for the Bump Viper! How long depends on the sport. In pure olympic sports (like athletics and swimming) with 4 year preparations, athletes aim to peak for the duration of their events (maximum 9 days in a sport like swimming) (or even more specifically for 1-3 days depending on event and when your heats/finals are.), either side of that they can be a fair way of the pace. But this is HIGHLY refined and reflects how hard it is to win Olympic gold in those events (world wide participation). A very small percentage off the pace and you wont make the finals. The standard of refinement in yearly team sports (competing weekly) and AFL (a one country sport) is miles lower and not designed for a one one event peak. Rather its designed to have the majority of your group in season best readiness for a block of around 4-5 weeks depending on what your final goal is. For example, for us, it would be to be hitting our straps before and throughout finals, whereas Collingwood will be in peak fitness now in a bid to make finals and then hold on as best they can (Kinda like us in 2018, when we just ran out of legs before the GF). Its worth noting that even if we are not at our peak, we can still be bloody good (as can other sides), lets say your absolute peak readiness achieved for one game achieves a score of 100, then the game either side might get a score of 98, the game either side of that a 96 etc, so its not all or nothing. It kinda tapers off either side of the peak but it's still a very high level of readiness. Right now I reckon we are around 80-85%, but thats just a guess. Only time will reveal if we nail the preparation or not. The club will have a list of metrics they are looking at internally and will have a very good idea if we are on track to peak at the correct time or not. Does that answer your question?

This is what the run home looks like: Many 8pt games among the top 8 (red and blue) and a fair smattering of their games vs teams 9 to 12 (green). Even the teams in 13 to 18 can do damage. We are 1 game and significant % above 5th. % is difficult to move at this time of year so that % gap is virtually another game. By my reckoning: The top 8 is set 15 wins needed for top 4. So we need three wins. Our % is an extra buffer. I don't know which three we will win but I am certain we will win three. 17 wins or even 16 +% needed for top 2. Any team on 11 wins or less needs to win at least 5 of the last 6 to make top 2. Given that Freo, Lions, Blues and Pies also have a very difficult run home, our chances of top 2 are excellent! So never fear, dear DL's. The question isn't which games we will win, it is who is in a position to dislodge us from top 4 or top 2? So for mine, top 4 it is and top 2 is ours for the keeping! Anyway, I think we can win it from anywhere in the 8.

He was there to witness 2021 and got to hold the Cup. Valè Legend

A great thing about Demonland is the thread and posting history is saved. It is well worth reflecting on the matches at the same stage last year when trying to work out what might be going on this year and to help contextualize and understand our performance (yes, yes, i know its different year and that just because we went on to the win the flag last year doesn't mean we will do so again etc, etc). Our round 18 game last year was our draw against the hawks. A quick flick through the post game thread is interesting in terms of the issues and problems (the symptoms) with our game that the majority of posters (but thankfully not all - these are the ones being lambasted for being 'delusional') are super focused on are almost exactly the same as those being highlighted right now (eg we are too predictable, we don't get value from Max, Goody has been worked out, we are too one dimensional, we are not premiership winning team, our forward line is hopeless, not enough pressure, our small forwards have disappeared, the young players have drooped off, Goody doesn't respond tactically, Goody out coached, sick of all the excuses, etc etc). Our round 19 game against the Dogs was a loss. Again, largely all the same sort of comments. Reading the post match thread, you'd think that not only were we a million miles from being a premiership winner, we were all but certain to drop out of the top 4. This comment from @KLVin that thread caught my attention as i skipped though it: 'We’re tired. We’re not chasing, tackling, and gut running like we were' Sound familiar? Spoiler alert. The dees came out looking an entirely different team the following week - fresher, didn't look the least bit tired or fatigued, energized and well and truly up an about. And flogged the suns in round 20. And the dees maintained that energy right to the very last second of the Grand Final, destroying every team in it path between that round 20 game and Tmac's post siren kick. We were clearly fitter than every team we played from round 20 (just as were from round 1-10). Opposition team simply could not go with us. We ran them into the ground. And that can only happen with superior physical preparation. Will that happen again this year? Who knows. We have injury issues this year we didn't have to contend with last year, when everything that could go right for us did go right. Maybe Selwyn has got the timing wrong or players are not working as hard (though, by all accounts they are working even harder). But logic suggests that the club is likely to replicate the processes that got us to a flag this year. Regardless of where you stand on loading, what can't be argued is that in terms of win, losses and performances, the pattern of this season is almost identical to last year. Our ladder position, win loss ratio, percentages and the period we have had our losses in is almost exactly the same this year as it was last year. And the media commentary is almost the same too (variation on the majority of the content in the two threads referenced above). It was dead wrong last year, and will likely be wrong again this year. But just as we do on Demonland, all the doomsayers will get a free pass for their inaccurate analysis and incorrect predictions. And next year, when the dees struggle in June and July, rather than looking back and taking history and previous patterns into consideration, they will instead repeat all their inaccurate analysis and incorrect predictions.

Oh for [censored] sake.

Or maybe they realise that a football season is more complex than one game, and despite what the media do to us, some like to try and understand the game on a deeper level than the reactionary, you’re only as good as your last match style. Poor form can be a result of many things. For a young team those reasons are different to an established team. If you can’t see trends in sport that occur over a season for teams in specific situations then you aren’t looking very hard. I wrote us off after we lost to gws last year. I was way off the mark and have learnt many things since then. Following a good football team and their practices throughout a season is very foreign to me. It’s barely happened in my life time. There’s new things to look for other than who we are drafting to save us and it’s heaps more fun this way. Not saying we will win the flag or another game even but there are reasons form fluctuates and it’s interesting to explore.

Exactly the way I saw it. Hearing Dangerfield say yesterday that they have pretty much set themselves up for this game all year just reinforces that they simply played a much physical and disciplined game then we did. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to actually acknowledge the better team won on the night. Kudos to the cats.

WE know exactly what we get with the Weid mediocrity. Give JVR a run can he be worse? Hard to believe.

This doesn’t get said enough. People here saying those opposed to him are opposed to second chances, forgiving mistakes etc… Come on. With the Lever incident, he potted him publicly once, than rather than learning that this was deeply uncool (especially as a CAPTAIN, mind you) blew his “second chance” and potted him again. With regard to the other incident, are we seriously to believe that this was a rare “mistake” that he deeply regretted? Or is it the far more likely scenario that at age 31, this was the first time he was caught being a thick-headed racist and spent the previous nineteen years (y’know, the ample amount of time when you’re supposed to learn that you should not ever call indigenous people “black c$&@s”) not bothering to learn these incredibly basic things. Second chances? Mistakes? Societal-rehab at the greatest club currently in the league? Gimme a break. He can get his second chance elsewhere, and I’ll be incredibly disappointed with the club if this d-bag is allowed in

Apart from the concussion which is serious enough, messing in one’s own nest also would have serious ramifications and impact self confidence, standing within the group and internal disappointment with one self. Even if the team forgive and move on he has to find that inner peace before he can move on and catch up. After all we can be our own worse enemies when we screw up.hopefully he can forgive himself and get back to his elite best but he may need help.!!!

There's a lot of talk about the players but I think the coaches need to lift. They need to find a way to combat the faster ball movement from the opposition.

Vale, a very strong innings.

That’s not what you said, nor what you meant. I wouldn’t dig yourself in any deeper.

Some of you folk must want to lose this week.

Only 6 weeks to go in the H & A season, we know what we get with Weid and M Brown, I’d be giving JVR a three week stint to see how he goes. He could be just what we need. We still have the no.1 ranked defence in the comp, the best ruck combo, top 3 midfield (if not the best, but not on current rankings), but our fwd line is the concern. From watching the Casey highlights he can take a grab and is a reasonable kick, it’s not like he’s being played rd.1.

I understand this @Lord Nev but to me this is a result of what I said earlier. It is as much about Brown not receiving support from another tall as it is us bombing it long inside 50 to a pack. How many times this year have you seen us genuinely hit Brown on a lead rather than dumping it on his head? Sure he still needs to improve his individual performance, but don't underestimate the impact that these other factors are having on those statistics ^

I'm firmly in the camp that we did some loading in/around the bye, but can see this narrative going a bit off the rails now. Admittedly I wasn't at the game in person on Thursday, but at least on TV I didn't think we looked flat like we did around the bye. We just looked beaten by a more physical side who have been planning for us for a long time. Feels like some may have got sucked into the early media narrative of us being unbeatable red hot flag favourites so now every time we lose we must be in a loading down turn.

I totally agree. Though, i suspect not for the same reasons.

I would definitely take him if Colinwood paid the first million each year, they throw in the Daicos boys as the steak knifes and give an undertaking that Ginnivan wears shorts that fit him.

Injury List: Round 18 Blake Howes - Foot | Available Andy Moniz-Wakefield - Groin | Available Daniel Turner - Face | Available Clayton Oliver - Finger | Test Joel Smith - Ankle | 1-2 Weeks Deakyn Smith - Jaw | 4 Weeks Tom McDonald - Foot | 7-9 Weeks

Port & Bulldogs back 6's aren't too big a step up from the VFL I reckon. Undersized and constantly out of position this year. It might be the ample two games to debut JVR

Bittersweet but it's good to know Noel saw the 2021 Premiership.

Unlikely I would've thought.

And to clarify, I rate him as a player, I just wanna find a way to get him in form for finals.

Conversely I don’t get why you want to smack the bloke every week.

Another way to read this is: 45 contests - 8 out marked + 1 mark = 36 balls brought to ground. Our forward line coach would love that number. You don’t have to watch us play for more than 15 minutes to realise we want forward 50 stoppages. Brown does his job. He was terrific early against Geelong when we had the ball moving the way we wanted. Not sure you can blame him for much when the ball isn’t down there often.

I won’t be listening live but look forward to the podcast during the week. It will be interesting to see which Melbourne team turns up this week in the Alice. My hometown and I’ll obviously be at the game. The grass will look brown on TV but only because we’ve had about 5 frosts in a row last week. The surface will still be fantastic. Go Dees

This thread is hilarious. Never seen so many people trying to wish away poor form in one place.

Can't understand the anti- Spargo feeling - was responsible for 4 goals vs the Lions.

It's simply embarrassing that some people in this country still think this way.

On a forward flank Laurie’s a slower, less fit, less experienced, less combative version of Spargo. Laurie’s VFL form is very promising for his future as a mid/forward type player with excellent skills. But that’s the future, when he’s developed his tank and his strength to play AFL midfield minutes. He’s barely established his midfield craft at VFL level, he’s a long way off AFL level. In terms of bringing fresh players in to play half forward I’d still have Chandler and Melksham more impactful at AFL level than Laurie. And Spargo ahead of both.

A real Legend of the club. Vale.

I respect your detailed analysis and passion, but the whole concept of looking for patterns in seasons stats (W/L etc) is almost exactly my issue with discussion about loading. As a mug footy watcher and just reviewing the way the games look and feel, I don't feel like our season feels much at all like last year, regardless of the coincidental parallels in the mid season stats. Last year I felt like we won the tight matches against the good sides when challenged, and importantly our 'bottom 4- 6' played out of their skins almost all year - almost coming of age from fringe players to best 22. This year the bottom 6 are a clear bottom 4-6 again IMO, and we've lost to all of the real contenders (Sydney, Freo and Cats). We have a player or 2 on every line who you'd argue about whether they are best 22. No doubt injury and suspension hasn't helped this. I'm also convinced there is an element of complacency at play too, coupled with other teams approaching our matches as mini finals / acid tests. Regardless of the debate about the magnitude of impact that training loads has on performance, I think finishing Top 4 is vital to making the GF. The elephant in the room is that our run home is much tougher this year and the season is far more even generally. Does finishing top 4 get priority over being absolutely cherry ripe on GF day (but having to play off from outside the 4)?

One thing some are missing is that many of us that are strong on loading being very significant right now are not doing it in hindsight, rather they have predicted well before the event that we would be in the middle of a poor stretch of form and results right now. @binman especially was very open and clear before the season started that we would have another mid-season slump. I predicted that we'd play poorly and only win 2 out of the 5 games post bye in a prediction thread. It's not a case of making excuses after the fact "to help us sleep better" as several have repeatedly accused. Also, seriously, are people really losing sleep right now about dropping some games in June/July???

You’re measuring him against a metric that isn’t how I measure his value, or what he was brought into the side to do. Anyways let’s agree to disagree, but with us both understanding that actually I’m right 🤣

Honestly think we lost because the opposition simply were better then us on the night.... Is this whole 'loading' narrative an easy excuse everytime we lose?

That's one way of looking at it, and Walker's not unredeemable. But you could also argue that it's not the job of our Indigenous players (or any Indigenous people) to have to do that education work. This is only my opinion, so it doesn't count for much, but I would be disappointed if the footy club, who has done so much good work in this area, was willing to overlook Walker's indiscretions.

I think like most dees supporters I would love for us to be playing well and winning. ‘Poor form’ isn’t a sensible term for making sense of what we see though. It is just catch phrase, it has components that you can talk about though. It is made up of strategy, skill, fitness and psychological state. This thread is discussing the fitness component. I think it is a critical element for understanding what we are seeing. But every one of those elements I have noted effects the others. For simplicity sake let’s just say that a skilled footballer doesn’t become less skilled over a season. Although game to game there are certainly micro strategy tweaks, overall we are playing the same strategy that we were playing at the beginning of the year (and last year). That leaves fitness and psychology as our 2 possible variables that are affecting the outcome of games for us. Talking about team psychology feels like a waste of time since we don’t know any of the players well enough to do anything but guess their mental state, arousal levels,etc. There is one other significant factor but for the purposes of discussion on the thread topic we ignore it. That is the opposition. How we match up against a given opponent tends to get done to death in post match threads (tbh with precious little insight but plenty of vitriol and passion). Those who are pro the idea of periodisation and scaled training loads are basically saying that this is the strongest variable factor during the year on our form. Interestingly fatigue plays into all 4 factors in form - tired player’s skills degrade, tired player’s tend to drop their heads, tired player’s are less laser focused on strategy execution.

You, sir, are an animal.

That's our turf

I agree with everything Lloyd said. Of course premiership aren't won in July, so he's saying that our current form and the way we're playing is not good enough to win it, and that's true.

What if we rehabbed him into a genuine human (and won a flag with him as a pleasant side effect)? Surely being supportive of our indigenous players means changing the behaviour of people who make stupid racist comments rather than refusing to have anything to do with them and let them live in their squalid racist beliefs.

No. Not liking pineapple on pizza is ludicrous.

If he is jolly, surely it's a pirated copy

Success like life is temporary. What we must enjoy is the now. Live in the moment because everything else is so fragile. However, this is a time when we should sit back, reflect and take stock of where we are now and where we have got to, and the sheer joy of supporting a successful team without shame, embarrassment, or apology. There is a belief and an energy within the club, administration, coaches and players that is infectious and also convincing. It was a few years ago that Goodwin and others started talking about building a new club, developing a strong culture and creating something special. Despite the doubters, it has happened. 65,000 members is the result. Kids in jumpers and adults swathed in Demon gear is the result. The footy world talking about the club with respect rather than derision is the result. Everyone expecting the Demons to win is the result. The way the club handled the May affair and batted away the media scrum is the result. Having champion players is the result. And champions who love the club is the result. Amazing really. Yes, we will lose matches but gee what a turnaround. We have come a long way whatever measure you use. I love the way supporters quickly identify one another in the street with a smile and a “go Dees” comment. And the enthusiasm of the kids in their jumpers and face paint brings a tear to my eye. I suspect my final words before passing to Demon heaven will be “go Dees.”