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Watched Tom Phillips rack up 30 touches for the Hawks and provide great drive through the midfield. Still 24 years of old and was traded for pick in the 60s. When we missed out on Isaac Smith the club came out and said that they'd put the trust in the current players on the list. So in other words we had no plan B.. this was perfect opportunity to change the dynamic of our midfield up and we just didn't bother at all. I then see Nathan Jones back on a wing yesterday and was absolutely gobsmacked that we've seen 0 improvement in this capacity over the summer. Baker is not the answer. Ordinary footballer who goes missing for about 3 quarters.

Tomlinson, but with Spargo riding on his shoulders giving him directions

Losing their minds? Or rightfully concerned about worrying patterns and trends that are clearly visible when we play good opposition? How many times have we played sides who are missing a host of senior players only to either just scrape a win or actually lose the game? The fact that we lost without some key players is not the issue. It's that many of us have seen Melbourne lose the game in a quarter of football in exactly the same fashion, even with our best side in. Did you watch any football at all last year? What was your excuse then? We had one of the best runs with injury and still came up short? We are losing due to an ineffective/inconsistent game style mixed with an underskilled and one-dimensional midfield and half-forward line. Not a thing has changed for three years other than the addition of Langdon and Tomlinson, (who is now playing as a third tall defender). So consider that a fail. Practice game or not, your assessment is that of a happy-go-lucky Melbourne supporter who refuses to dig a bit deeper.

Some concerning signs I agree but just a note on Gawn and why he "can't tap it down the throat of the mids" A ruck is no good on his own - requires a midfield group that know how to structure a stoppage, block for each other and create space around where the hitout is directed. Watching closely yesterday it was obvious that the 2nd string midfield A) haven't played a lot together absent clarry, viney B) were taught a lesson on stoppage craft. Libba (who destroys us even when we have the A team in) gave Sparrow an absolute spanking in this - pushed him deep underneath every centre bounce before finding the ball, riding two tackles and dishing off to one of the other mids that held their structure. Sparrow, Jordon, Anb/avb/harmes swarmed around the ball and carrier meaning if they won it, they had nowhere to go, and if they didn't win it, it became vitally important they stuck the tackle, which they didn't because they aren't senior bodies. It's a VFL way of playing footy in the midfield - see ball chase ball and the strongest wins - rather than what's required of AFL mids to block, create space, cycle structure around a stoppage, break a tackle to draw a man etc The names highlighted demonstrated almost no aspect of this in their midfield craft other than Harmes, who displayed a little but was inevitably gang tackled as he had no assistance. Gawn can 'tap it down their throats' all day long but without proper midfield setup, it counts for nothing. People rave about Gawn at centre bounces - driven by the ridiculous value that hitouts are given for fantasy scoring, which have for some reason elevated certain ruckman to being ranked alongside the games most influential mids, forwards and backs. It's pure nonsense. For me the value of Gawn is purely in his marking and structures he provides us everywhere else around the ground. Agree with the earlier post who said give me a Bont or Pendles over a dominant ruck anyday. To some extent I hate that we wanted a top 10 afl player on our list for so long, and when it came it was a bloody ruck. It's an argument many have had - I maintain that an elite ruck is nowhere near a requirement for a flag compared to an elite midfield, creative small forwards and dominant key forwards. I'd switch Max out for Sonny Walters or Liam Ryan anyday. The best teams in the league - Port, Geelong, Brisbane, St Kilda - have a mix of good, serviceable rucks and battlers who fill a 'tall' need (e.g Ladhams). But they're stacked everywhere else on the ground. This is not a potshot at Max but a point to posters who seem to think that he can, via hitouts, somehow make us win clearances regardless of the cattle at his feet. Footy is that simple at country level but it's far more complex at AFL level.

Yesterday was just further confirmation to me that we're nowhere near it. I've read the same demonlanders for decades continue to chalk up excuses regarding practice matches. Everyone understands they're practice matches. And everyone is aware we had some big name players out including some important midfielders. But for anyone with even the faintest idea about the game would have been able to see that yesterday only highlighted what Goodwin and co have refused to address. That is, the shape of our list. Aside from the Ben Brown signing, we have done very little in the way of adding to our list and mixing up our skill set through the middle of the ground. I saw the same [censored] yesterday that I've seen for going on three years now. Do supporters ever feel a sense of deja vu when watching us lose? It's Groundhog day. If you watch back even at last year's game against the Dogs, you will see an eerily similar game to yesterday's. And we had our first choice midfield back then. This is completely about list balance and Goodwin continues to play one of the most one-dimensional game styles, executed by some of the most one-dimensional players through the middle of the ground. There is almost no point of difference when I look at the way we play. Very little creativity and a lot of really really dumb play. Dumb decisions, slow reactions and extremely poor execution. Go back and look at some of the positioning from Harmes at contests, look at where Max constantly hit the ball, look at the way we have three players run at the same opposition player with the ball allowing easy handballs to space that make us look like witches hats. These are a few of so many examples. Look at our entries still. Look at the number of players we have who cannot even tackle correctly. It's not one thing. It's a bunch of vanilla players continuously making mistakes. The dogs have a blend of inside/outside players who are clean, creative and extremely smart. That is and was the difference with us and most sides above us and Goodwin is simply kidding himself if he thinks we're going anywhere with his narrow minded "win it at the contest, high pressure forward-half game". Opposition sides are too smart and constantly make us look second rate. Pressure Melbourne at the contest and they will give it up. It's as easy as that. Posters might think I'm overreacting. Totally fine. But the proof will be in the pudding come the end of the year. We might beat some sides with our contested brand here and there sure, but the game has evolved and teams who are better balanced and have superior skill will tear us apart in one quarter like the dogs did in the third again yesterday. Prove me wrong Melbourne.

Our forward line, for all the missing players, was actually fine yesterday. We played a forward line of (mostly) TMac, Jackson, Fritsch, Chandler, ANB and Spargo, and we managed to have 13 marks inside 50 from only 41 entries. As a yardstick, the Dogs also had 13 marks inside 50 from 64 entries. From 41 entries we kicked 10 goals (24%), whilst the Dogs kicked 15 from 64 (23%) despite having many of those extra entries from stoppage clearances, which are far more dangerous. Our structures held up pretty well and, despite what has been said here, our kick ins were very dangerous and a real weapon. Having two players who can cover territory quickly, along with 2 ruckmen, means that our direct kickouts are going to be very dangerous. That, in turn, will force teams to throw numbers long and straight, which will open up gaps later on. They kicked 6 goals to 1 in the 3rd quarter where, from memory, I think we only won one clearance for the quarter. That isn't a typical occurrence for us since contested ball and clearances are usually strengths for us, but with 3 of our 4 best contested midfielders being out we were exposed. That is a one off, so we should be looking past that and thinking how we fared assuming we win 50/50 contested ball and clearances, rather than losing them 113-164 and 24-48.

Congrats Majak. Simply my observations from venturing out West yesterday, some others might have seen different. As mentioned previously he only played a half. He started full forward and was our main target. He led up to the 50 several times in the first quarter (we sat directly behind our forwards) and the pleasing thing was he was able to get his hands to the ball first in pack situations. The Dogs were well drilled all day and didn’t allow us space and time from the start. Daw was always fighting two and three blokes. I wanted to see him stick a few marks which wasn’t the case early but at least he brought the ball to ground close to the packs. By the end of the quarter he took a couple of marks. His work rate off the ball was good, never gave up a chase and we were chasing all day. He got his goal in the second quarter curtesy of a free but that was more to do with good positioning. Not sure how we use him going forward but wish him nothing but good luck, you just never know.

Dogs were putting him under pressure all day with repeat forward entries and he stood up really well He was supercompetitive one v one, even left his man to jump and punch the ball away His disposal was good under pressure with no costly turn overs He's great to watch Pretty lean, as you would expect given he has probably been training his guts out trying to win a spot but given his ability and determination it's not a major issue

Tomlinson to the wing which is why we threw a 4 year contract at him. He played an outstanding prelim final in 2017 on a wing and did have a 34 possession game last year against Hawthorn in the Marsh series. Petty to take Tomlinson's role in defence. Baker to play at Casey. Fritsch to have a tracking device on his ankle that goes off every time he leaves the forward 50 metre ark. He's our only legit forward option in the early rounds and must stay there.

The Dogs were on top all day but we did not stop trying it was a game played in our defensive half Declase - played well given the Dogs were dominant, took at least 5 marks, has a long kick on him, only his first game so needs time to build confidence Kozzie - gun, excellent fitness and tremendous work ethic, tough, fast and athletically gifted, he can definitely play midfield, side steps, twists, just a ripper Petty - great defensive game considering under the pump all day, plenty of intercept marks, will slot straight in if May and Lever need help, would prefer him play instead of Tomlinson Laurie - worked hard, got caught holding the ball trying to do a side step but didn't let it demoralised him, would like to see him play wing in the same game as Baker to get a read on who has more impact Rosman - didn't have much impact but that could be because the ball was hardly ever kicked to him

Credit where it is due. Good move.

a lot of what i'm going to say has probably already been said but i'm not going to read every single post on the thread now that i'm a couple days behind. i was at the game and there were some really concerning things which stood out to me 1. the doggies kicked 8 behinds in the first quarter and every time we just smacked the ball to a contest centre wing, didnt mark it, didnt win it at ground level and just saw it come flying back in again. after 2 maybe 3 efforts of that maximum - in one quarter - surely you have to try something else, look for a chest, actually work hard run and block to create an outlet coz it was just lazy and ineffectinve 2. hunt, in a game which is now all about run and carry and handball receives and metres gained, to have what 13 disposals? that's pathetic, especially when the ball was down there all game. never knew why he was given a deal after last season was obviously never going to be a regular in a serious side. 3. our midfield, yes we have outs but all our mids are one dimensional theyre bash and crash they can't kick (except brayshaw kind of) and now the game is less tackling, less contested and we got diced. and now they want to add sparrow and jordon in who are exactly the same mould. it can't happen. we can not play 7-8 inside winners. vandenberg is [censored] and i bet we're wishing we let him walk to sydney when they came for him. if anyones a rugby player it's him 4. our "kids". sparrow and jordon are 3rd year players now. and they tried hard yes but they got smashed and now they're not even the midfield type we need and become almost wasted selections and we can't afford to carry them in the 22 playing outside roles and baker, my god. i also called for his head last year and was fuming when we didn't go after phillips, well. send him to the 2s asap and leave him there OR he needs to be trialled at HF coz i think he actually has a semi decent eye for goal there but he just doesn't get enough of the footy or do enough with it. being quick is not a personality trait my friend 5. ANB, i've been a big critic of his last two seasons especially but to his credit he performed and played well, undoubtedly come round 3-4 the goals will dry up and he'll deserve to be dropped but he played like he cared and did a decent defensive fwd job on daniel in the 2nd quarter so i'm ok with him being there round 1 - still want him gone come seasons end tho. 6. tmac - nope, give mbrown a run this man just doesn't do enough or impact the game/scoreboard at all 7. may and lever, fantastic, outstanding, not enough superlatives to describe the impact they're beginning to have for us. but i'd really like to see petty in there instead of tomlinson, i mean the guy let firstly josh bruce and secondly some bendendo guy out mark him thats poor from a seasoned bloke like him he doesn't do enough to impact in the air can't wait to see salo, hibbo, gus, viney, clarry, weid and brown back out there can't come soon enough

Ahh the old doomsday thread following a loss Here we go again indeed

Add Bontempelli to that mix too. After seeing how much better his kicking has gotten put a few on him to win the Brownlow, he was scintillating yesterday. Last few times we played WB both Daniel and Bont destroyed us. We can't be serious without tagging these 2 at least. Next time i would be lining up Kozzie on Daniels and saying just stick with him and pressure him relentlessly. Harmes should be playing tight tag on Bont, or put VDB on him for brief period and just tell him to smash his body. Amazing we did not try and tag any of their major ball magnets. We need to put much more thought into curbing other teams and the way they want to play, we are far too sociable and let them do as they please. It is on the coaches to have a plan....vs EVERY opponent. We can't just play our way, the other teams simply will not allow this! We need to do similar and be much harder to play against. Need many more selfless role players prepared to just stopping their playmakers getting any easy kicks, won't be holding my breath though. We want to play our way 100% of time. It is flawed, every team puts thought into opposition, not sure we do honestly. We seem to get beaten in same manner by same oppositions too often. Groundhog Day !!

Smashed in the clearances 48-24, by 51 in contested possessions and that resulted in 64-41 i50s - it's a long time since that's happened to us and it's hard to win when it does. Adem Yze moved from the speed ball and the bag to the ring against an opponent two weight divisons above and found out the hard way. James Jordon head-to-head with the Bont, OK - a pre-season game is a good place for a man to find his limitations I guess. Macrae, Bont, Dunkley, Liberatore, Hunter racking up the numbers. Apparently Adem is replacing Simon Goodwin when we're 1-4 - but it's very hard work when you're missing Oliver, Viney and Brayshaw up against that midfield. Baker is not up to finals-level football and I'm hoping we play Melksham on that wing when he comes in. I saw him and Jones put in a heavy running pre-season at TBO and I think he'll be ready to go. The backline held up very well - May and Lever really enhanced their reputations, Salem and Hibberd will make good additions and Bowey warmed to the task and showed he has the tools with some good decisions and execution by hand and foot. The forward line has been maligned in most of the commentary, but they made equal conversion rate of the less effective entries they received. We took just as many marks inside 50 as the Dogs and Fritsch was clearly the most dangerous marking forward in the match. I actually thought TMac and Jackson were OK - generally providing a contest. Yes it would be a cause for concern in the long run if we didn't have B.Brown, Weid and Pickett to return. Someone does need to play a defensive role on Caleb Daniel. I can't recall anyone hitting targets like he does. That one-two on the kick-out and handball receive is going to be hard to stop with the new rule. Stefan Martin is a very handy addition to the Dogs arsenal. ANB really enhanced his reputation and was very good, Jones was pretty effective too with good disposals and stuck his tackles and will make 300 if he keeps that form up. On the other side of the ledger AVB was terrible. Before I turned the commentary off, because I couldn't stand another second of the insufferable Gaddy, I did hear them say that their inside man at the Dogs said they had set themselves for an all out assault on this game and it looked like it.

Binman. Love your passion. Fact is, he's not the player you believe/believed him to be. Happy he's got a contract but will not be surprised to see him playing ore VFL than AFL this year.

Slam it on the boot and hope for the best. The Bulldog player got a hand on the shorts to be fair, but still, the kicking motion was never about anything other than territory. Thought we were attempting to get past this type of footy. Harmes needs to read the memo if he's going to play in the midfield this year. There's only so much rolling my eyes can take.

When do the learnings stop and the doings start?

I don’t want my footy club or its supporter groups hosting functions at a men’s only members club. It’s the year 2021. What you call virtue signalling is simply people trying to do better. We know better, so let’s do better.

Hate it when business panders to the consumer!!!

Or a Steven Tingay when he was up and going....

I was actually excited turning up today, even if it was a pre-season game. Finally after 18 months, Live Football in the flesh! I was not excited when I left. I don't care about the outs, there was no soul in this team, nowhere near the required pressure and intensity - just the same predictable skill errors and the usual suspects killing chains of possession. I regret going today. The only thing I learned is how completely stuffed we are if Oliver ever gets injured... because we are deadset D-grade in the middle without him. I have a horrible feeling we're about to waste a third year in a row Post 2018 - and this group's potential is going to be p*$$ed up against a wall because this particular coach can't inspire or get the best from them.

...and by the way. Does anyone else hate G Lyon commenting on our games? I find him insufferable at the best of times but doubly so when it's us.

I hope Bowey plays round 1. Besides that kick you mentioned he had a couple of very good quick hand passes in close under pressure, and also a couple of times he guided the ball to advantage without taking possession because he was under serious pressure and would have been caught if he did. He’s got footy smarts and probably already the best option we have now as a small defender.

Have watched both our praccy games, and other games also and I just reckon we are still nowhere near good enough. We seem so disorganised as a team especially against a well drilled side, doggies. I hope I’m wrong. Go Dee’s

Not only did 6 of our top 10 from last year's B&F not play, all of the Dogs top 10 from last year did. Perspective.

I wonder if our centre bounces yesterday were Gawn, Trac, Oliver, Viney against English, Westerns second best mid in McRae, 7th gamer Rhylee West and first gamer McNeil how much different the whole game would look? Very disappointed that none of the kids really showed high hopes. Very disappointed that none of the B Graders other than ANB stepped into the breach left by those missing. Very disappointed that we could not lay a tackle and refused to lock onto Caleb Daniel. But really how could anyone get a read on that game with the imbalance in the middle of the ground.

I'm happy with the signings. I saw Smith at training during the pre-season and he stood out to me. He's lightly framed, but he moves really well and has Rosman like fitness/endurance. He can play Wing and Half Back like Bowey... perhaps we will see a changing of the guard by mid season with Nev and Hibbo nearing the end. On Daw, going by the 2018 highlights he looks really good to help out in the forward line if needed. But I mainly see him as a back up if Gawn goes down. We can't leave it all up to Jackson to carry the ruck duties, we needed a senior body and he'll be more than serviceable when called upon.

It actually is an issue, a lot of people were very [censored] off, whether you or i give a dam doesn’t matter. we need Money and Land from The State Government so it was not smart to rock the boat Diplomacy is important when you need something

Good old Elegt, the epitome of a foul weather "supporter". Only turns up when things are bad and then does nothing but criticise.

Garry Lyon is the worst commentator out there. An impossibly self-important lightweight. I often wonder if he lives in constant fear that everyone's going to realise that he doesn't know what he's talking about anymore, although I suspect that that he probably doesn't have the self-awareness for that.

If we are relying on Tom McDonald up forward we are in big big trouble. We need to try a Petty, Mitch Brown combo because unless Max drifts down there our forward line has no presence at all.

Example of poor defensive structure, lack of accountability, organisation and leadership. Why so many players manning free space just 10 metres behind the mark? You can see English running towards goal left of the screen Outnumbered at fall of the ball. Bruce literally stopped and walked to not get in the way. 4 players trailing on edge of the frame...fmd How can this type of thing happen for professionals that train as much as they do. Selfish, undisciplined and stupid. Really hope this game wasn't a sign of things to come.

You haven't been triggered by this decision have you snowflake?

Yeah go for it I can see him smashing it on a wing in a mad scramble to fill that spot!

Following the very poor showing yesterday, I'd like to send TMac, Spargo, Baker, AVB, Harmes, Tomlinson, Jetta, Jones, Jordon, Sparrow and Bedford back to the VFL next weekend to try and earn themselves a spot for Round 1. Chock certainly has his hands full improving the skills of this lot. However, given that it is likely that all of Viney, BB, Weid, Hibberd and Melksham will be out for Round 1, some of the above will get call ups, but hopefully only based on performance. My team would be: Rivers May Lever Hunt Petty Salem Langdon Petracca Tomlinson Pickett MBrown Fritsch Chandler TMac Jackson Gawn Brayshaw Oliver INT: ANB Jones Bowey Harmes. To me, Petty has to come in, and therefore, until we have a better option (which I don't think will be any time this year) I'd move Tomlinson onto the wing - its what we bought him for and he is the model we based getting Rosman on. Given the lack of form of our injury free key forwards, I think we need to entrust Mitch Brown to the CHF role for now, and put TMac back to FF where I think he played his best footy back in 2018. That should also free up Jackson from having the best defenders on him (at least initially). When it came to picking the interchange players, I found I couldn't find one player that would make the best 22 in virtually any other AFL team. I may have forgotten someone but the lack of depth really concerns me. When we get back our injured players, these guys will struggle to make the bench IMO, unless they dramatically improve their skills and their form. That's a bit harsh on Bowey, who I think will become a player. he certainly has the disposal skills we so desperately need.

Whilst I was hoping we'd go after Phillips, I suspect it was a salary cap management decision. He would come cheap from a picks perspective but his existing contract may not have been as attractive (with Petracca, Oliver and others coming up for re-contracting).

Spot on...i was dismayed we missed out on Isaac. We did not even seem interested in Phillips who is a walk up start in that position and would make us lot stronger immediately. We missed the boat on both both these guys. Baker does not really seem suited to the position. Maybe a HFF but does not seem a natural for wing position. Jones being in the team let alone wing is really concerning to me. All teams are quick nowadays, you can't select too many plodders or you chasing tail all day...like last few times we played WB. Teams like WB and Port/Brisbane are going to tear us apart with their legspeed all over the ground if we continue to pick our slower/older players. Going to be a long year! Not sure the players believe in Goodwin either, there just seems to be something missing. Even more concerning is that we have to park ego's. Seemed this was always an issue of drinking their own bathwater and putting in a stinker after a win. We have achieved zilch as a footy team in a very long time. Achieved nothing with current crop unless you count top 50 players, which we have a sprinkling of. Our mob needs to get angry to play well, when we are bullying teams and making it all bash and crash we bring the skill levels down and can match it with anyone. When we are not angry teams just waltz on by. We seem to lack the intensity required over 4 quarters. We are a laughing stock of a team with some very good players among us....Surely it is time we played like a team that is hungry/angry and doing everything they can to bridge the gap.

If Petty and Kozzy get through full games next weekend then they're absolute locks for round 1 imo.

Angus - he was captain for the day, you can tell he is a tough, classy AFL level on baller Daw - did ok, big frame, reasonable fitness, didn't pluck any massive grabs, ok in the ruck

Did anyone notice that TMac was competing with Max when May was kicking in? Spoiled him a few times and one time ripped the ball from his grasp? iirc it was primarily in the first quarter. Did I hear someone say they would play 'selfless' football? Hmm, I wonder what TMac thinks that looks like. Another example was when Baker took a low % shot for goal when there were players in better positions. Maybe some players need reminding of what 'selfless' looks like.

The way I see things - We fielded our worst starting midfield in quite a few years - They have a very strong midfield (one of the best) and absolutely smashed us in clearances despite us winning the hit out count - This being the case we were always going to struggle - They are well coached , fit and have speed across the ground (not sure we tick those three boxes, arguably only one) - We still have nothing like a functioning forward line. Whether or not the return of Brown and/or Weid will make significant difference we will have to wait and see - personally I have limited confidence in either of them to make a meaningful difference on a consistent basis - We have some players that IMO just aren't good enough and should spend the majority of the year at Casey and if they don't improve should be moved on at years end - Goodwin saying he thinks this team is well prepared & capable of going deep into the finals seems a very long way off to me - The sky is not falling yet - but this group is showing all the tell tale signs from previous seasons of inconsistency and inability to stop teams from effectively icing a game in one quarter

I believe today is the final day for selections to be added to club lists via the pre-season supplemental selection process. Good luck to Majak, Kobe, Deakyn, Kye (and Oscar). (I've just noticed that you apparently needed an unusual first name which includes the letter 'k' if you wanted to be considered for a spot on the MFC list through this process.)

Yes. An undermanned side, with nearly its whole midfield not playing, in addition to missing its two key forwards and best distributor of the ball, will never beat a near full strength Dogs side, which has one of the best midfields in the AFL.

So the point easily missed is women were never ever going to be excluded from the event as the club allows female guests but denies female memberships much as some clubs deny male membership. Another non-issue made into an issue thewn re-issued.

I did. And it was a neat, 25 metre kick inboard that hit a target (i think rivers) that had opposition players around him. Rubbish kicking skills is our biggest single issue. Bowey will help address this issue.

It was nice to do something normal, like going to the footy, getting mad at the umpires and watching us lose.

Year 5 of Goodwin's reign and the talk from the club is still about 'attitudes' and 'selfless''. These are are mandatory in a team sport. It is an indictment on club, coach and players that we have yet to 'walk the talk'. What happened to our 'Esprit de Corps' of 2018!!! Was it just talk. Was it just for show? Two aspects of the article stood out for me: "They will have a different game plan, built around the team’s strengths". Isn't this coaching 101? A game plan to get the most from the cattle you have (ie to "maximise player strengths"), was the fundamental base of a Roos' team. "In 2021, teams will need some of their mid-sized or small forwards – and potentially even defenders – to expand the number of midfielders who take their turn to 10; some teams already do so". When Roos joined he made his priority to rebuild the midfield and he talked about 8 - 12 'on-ballers' who rotate through the midfield. Until late last year we relied on a few to spend most of the on-field time in the midfield. The result was players played out of position and frustrated players who couldn't achieve their best. I'm beginning to wonder whether Goodwin was paying attention to Roos. Here we are 7 years after Goodwin joined and he is now adopting Roos' game fundamentals. I recall Pert saying late last year that we have the list and put the heat on Goodwin to create a game plan that makes the most of player strengths. I really hope Goodwin fully adopts this and not just play lip-service to it.