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I'm responding to you, but it's wasted on you, so it's really for others. What couldn't be replicated by simply running was contested work. In a quality preseason contested work, i.e. bumping into bodies, tackling, competing for pack marks, getting up quickly after you've just been brought to ground, sprinting to tackle when you're fatigued, etc. is all part of the necessary preparation to get you ready for the most brutal team sport in the world. None of our midfielders completed even half a proper preseason and most didn't start any contested stuff until February. It also doesn't provide players with any confidence that they're ready. They know what's required and they also know what's less than ideal. Confidence is huge in footy and most players heading into round one would have had serious trepidation as to whether they'd done the work required. Preseason running to get a fitness base simply doesn't cut it in the modern game, chap.

It wasn't surprising that the opposition during that period were accurate......we had little in the way of defenders! With little pressure, easy shots ensue. During that period we were missing Lever and Jetta for the whole time. May - all the period except for 1 game. But we also lost Hibberd, Salem, Lewis and Hore at some point for a couple of weeks. So it wasn't bad luck, we just didn't have the cattle to hold out the opposition. One would think that putting Lever, May and Jetta into those games in 2019 would have seen the opposition kick a couple of goals less. It was remarkable how close we were in those games..... The positive is (as you have alluded.)...it shouldn't happen again with the players now on the pre-season track.

Throws seed on barren ground. Those that don’t understand now either don’t want to or just never will.

That's true enough, but not like this they haven't. Those of us from the bush haven't seen fires this widespread in our lifetimes. Bushfires are a part of life, and something we plan for each summer. We've had plenty of bad fire seasons before. But without wanting to sound melodramatic, the scale of these fires truly is unprecedented. Much of the Australian bush and fires go hand in hand, but areas of temperate rainforest that simply aren't meant to burn are currently being torched. These areas have been unaffected by fire for quite literally millions of years - in terms of both natural and human-caused fires. These ecosystems simply do not evolve in the presence of fire. This is not normal. Sadly, the fact that the debate quickly turns political is only natural when people are angry and looking for someone to blame. But managing fires and fuel loads is far more complicated than most people realize. It's easy to point the finger at a lack of planned burning, but in reality, this isn't the silver bullet that some people make it out to be. Under some circumstances, planned burns can actually lead to thick re-growth and make the situation worse. Further, burning is only possible when conditions are just right - it's simply been too dry to burn safely in many areas. Fingers crossed for rain!!!

For the most part, you're right - the vast majority of the Australian landscape has evolved with fire. The vegetation (namely eucalypts and acacias) has adapted to cope with droughts, floods and frequent fires. But not everywhere. Substantial areas of rainforest (particularly along the Great Divide in northern NSW and QLD, as well as SW Tasmania) have not. Rainforests don't spring up overnight - millions of years is not hyperbole. If and when they burn, they are out competed by plants that are adapted to fire. And yes, we are seeing fires push into these areas. Please don't misunderstand me - I'm certainly not some tree-hugging greenie crying over trees while family and friends are worried about losing their homes. But if that's not evidence that we're in an unusual bushfire season, then I don't know what is. Nah, we're not. It's certainly earlier than usual. The bush (at least most areas in NE Vic and Gippsland) is usually still fairly damp through December. Most of our major bushfires have historically been largely restricted to a single, 'perfect storm' catastrophic day. Black Friday: Jan 13th. Black Tuesday (Hobart): Feb 7th. Ash Wednesday: Feb 16th. Black Saturday: Feb 7th. Like I said, fires are far more complicated than most people think, and I'm not certainly not pointing the finger at anyone or any one factor. The word 'unprecedented' gets thrown around a lot to the point that it's virtually lost its meaning, but I think it fits here.

In my opinion Richo inherited a bog ordinary list and culture and then was handed some ordinary draft and list management decisions throughout his tenure. I suspect he is a lot better coach than his record suggests.

This is priceless wisdom. You have skirted any 'political' digs yet you have nailed the crux of what's at issue here: namely that in our history the scale and unseasonality of the fires is unprecedented. I have travelled and spent much time in all of the areas affected - apart from the fires in the South east of WA - and just about every name which comes up brings back a personal connection, right down to the fires in the back blocks of Corryong, or the fire between Portland and Nelson. Binna Burra, Beechmont, Peregian, Guyra, the fires around Laurieton, Cudlee Creek, Woodside, Mallacoota where I spent a 1980 honeymoon in the adjoining Croajingolong Park, Cobungra, all places I have been to and or stayed at. More than many people I understand the significance of these dreadful events, events made more puzzling and significant simply because they have and are occurring not only on an unprecedented scale - yes, I am aware of the '39, 1897 and other catastrophes - but at a time of year not imagined possible before. I can't help but add that there are and were scientists who forecast the scale of this catastrophe thirty years ago - a catastrophe which is quite probably ( heaven forbid) in its infancy as we speak. God help us all, is all I can say, because the politicians we've voted for are doing sweet fungoolie all about it and the so-called man in charge has re-defined the Peter Principal..

No argument from me. But blaming arsonists (who should be locked up for life IMO) is missing the point. Most of the current fires started from lightning, but yes, a small percentage were deliberately lit. But we've always had arsonists lighting bushfires. It's not new. Fires are always going to start, no matter what. Whether its arson, lightning, farm machinery or power lines. Each summer, hundreds of fires will start. It's inevitable. Usually, you won't see them on the news though, because they can be quickly contained before they spread. Right now, containing fires is virtually impossible.

Well knock me over with a feather. Who would have guessed. Same story that we've had from every assistant since about 1968.

To any Demonlanders caught in these horrific bush fires. My thoughts and prayers are with you, I hope you all come out of it safe and sound. A house can be rebuilt, a life can't

If you add the current fires to that sequence, regardless of anything else, it shows that these extreme fire events are becoming more frequent.

A player told me Gawn will be captain

Good point....North are a conundrum and a big warning lesson for MFC. They have had reasonable success for a long time but have been unable to turn that success into a real boost in supporters. Probably only Hawthorn have been successful in coming from a low base to a power club and they have had incredible on field success. MFC on the other hand have gone from one of the two or three power clubs of the 50's and early 60's to the bottom four (North Bulldogs Saints and us). Not sure we can turn the ship around but a few successful seasons would certainly help paper over the cracks for a lot of us ageing supporters.

I am sure we didn’t intend to give it up, but regardless. We did. Richmond moved into our turf and stayed, and got their act together straight away We were still blindsided by the oncoming professionalism of the game. TV Bought in big money and we were not used. It all accumulates... i don’t disagree with anything you say above by the way, but the roots to all of our modern problems began with our lack of TV Coverage. The MFC was not part of people’s loungeroom when The VFL was growing a brand new audience

Spot on ding.

Not sure many people actually believed that Doctors had miraculously discovered the cause of his problems and it could now be managed. Might also add to the caution needed about Bennell before anyone gets too excited about his prospects. Hope both make it back to their best for us, but the chances must be extremely slim.

Richo had a very ordinary coaching career at St Kilda but did have winning records over Essendon (5-3), Gold Coast (5-3) and Melbourne (7-3). I expect him to provide good intel on how to beat those three sides.

Spot on. I raised this point that the opposition’s accuracy was killing us as much as our own poor footy. Not sure if it was coincidence or to do with our lack of fitness. Check out this for a crazy 6 week period between rounds 7-12 which ultimately killed off our season. Melbourne - 53.80 (average 9.13.67) Opposition total. 76.45 (average 13.7.85) That’s basically an 18 point loss but 2 more scoring shots a a game. Hawthorn, GC and Collingwood combined a total of 12.0 in the last quarters of those three games. That’s surely just bad luck. (Ironically we won two of those games but that’s beside the point. The above mentioned opposition accuracy conversion of 63% over 6 weeks is a complete anomaly and would be unlikely to be repeated again this year.

Plenty here in Aus too Bin (myself included). There’s many scientists who are also Christians and think science supports the creation narrative. Anyway, not the place for this discussion - apologies for going off topic

In seriousness I'm super pleased we have Richo onboard and feel really positive about 2020. My key takeaways were that the players are fit, have got a good conditioning block in and will focus alot on footy and how we play when back from the break, and that Richo's focus is that the players understand it instinctively.

Ken Jungwirth never amounted to much, but in his first game (I think it was) he kicked four goals with huge torpedoes that spun perfectly without wobble or slew, and they had great hang-time. So that he stays in the memory for his kicking; it promised so much.. Late replacement for someone if I'm remembering it right - but his kicks are an indelible memory. He led straight down the ground - but too far, so it seemed.. Great kicking is so fundamental to the game that it blinds me to other things - I still fully believe in Jack Watts... his goal sealing the game against Collingwood is one of the great moments - seeing the whole crowd leap up together behind the goal in the Punt Road northern pocket ... Watts aeroplaning, Collingwood doubled over with the exhaustion, and the exhilaration! The high mark of course - but kicking must be the real essence of the game. I agree with the comment Travis Johnston drew the player to the ball - Robbie Flower did the same. Jurrah could do it. Watching a long kick curling in to goal... Great kicking is where a lot of the magic of footy is, surely?

Really hard to see how referring to the science is "politicising" the discussion.

At least i give an opinion. Have no idea what yours are, You just throw darts ?

Typical Picket Fence/Donald Trump wild speculation and fake news

Danny Hughes from Full Back BANG!

“And goes BANG straight through the center...” J Dyer 3KZ is football

8.13 and 22.30 for some rippers in terms of distance.....

This:

Thanks mate.

i had a dream last night that i spoke to a scout from an oppo side when i asked what he'd made of the dees thus far this preseason his response was "they've got a helluva lot more players out on the park...skills are still dee-plorable but"

Bushfires have been happening for millions of years. Circle of life and all that. Seeing it being politicized so heavily is beyond disgusting.

Perhaps the real answer to the ongoing bushfire issue lies elsewhere ... of course, that won't satisfy the rusted on types from all the sides of politics (the right, the left, the Greens etc) They just want their team to somehow win a non-winnable argument. Historical Role of Fire (in Australia) Bill Gammage: Prevent Bushfire the Aboriginal Way Long before the Anzac legend, our national character was forged in the flames of the bush So, can we turn the clock back? Probably not in the current political environment but down the track a more common sense and logical answer will be looked at. But don't hold your breath because we are decades away from going back to the ancient ways. In the meantime, the bushfire crises will go in indefinitely. We are a land of long droughts, fire & floods and low rainfall ... and the original inhabitants had that knowledge thousands of years ago. So they acted accordingly.

Exactly, that last game against the saints was like watching under 12s. They knew our glaring weakness and just ran it around the boundary at every opportunity, and we had no answer for it. It was that simple and Goodwin had zero ability to counter it. It was embarrassing as it gets and as easy a win for the saints without actually needing to play well.

In more recent times Travis Johnstone was a great kick on his day. He possessed incredible vision and made some of those low percentage passes look easy. One of my favourite ever Dees to watch when on song.

"Richardson impressed" that he's not unemployed.

A better question might be Tomlinson or Baker.. Tomlinson obviously for now, but we should be blooding some experience into Baker this year too. Does he have to add more forward and defensive strings to his bow to get an op on the wing?

I think this thread is about the MFC Captain! Cotchin of the Tigers is now the poster boy for captains, but I can remember during 2016 and midway through 2017 he was hammered for not being a real leader, then miraculously he becomes a great captain! Viney showed great leadership in the 2018 final wins and I can recall a number of other games where he has shown exceptional leadership to drive the team onto wins. It will be great to see him play after a full pre season, rather than going in unprepared and carrying significant injuries. Judge him at the end of hopefully an injury free 2020! Max strikes me as a different kind of leader, but I’m sure if he becomes captain or co-captain, will lead by example and having another terrific season. Jones disappointed me as a leader for one key reason, have hardly see him chase a player over the last two years, maybe it was due to injury, but as a problem MFC has had over a number of years as a team, that really disappointed. I know it’s simplistic but I think of a root cause for one of our problems. The other leadership we lack showed up against Port in the first game last year, with Max being attacked the whole game and getting no support! Also happened in 2018 prelim against the Eagles! I think this is where the likes of May, Lever, and Vandenburgh were really missed in 2019, not sure if Viney played that game, but at some point you need to stand together! Hopefully we show this leadership across the ground in 2020! In my view this is one of the reasons we lose to Collingwood so often, they look like they believe they can just push us around!! So standing up and being counted is what I’m looking for from all our players. Richie Vandenburgh led the Hawks to change their mentality particularly against the Bombers, to go from victims to the aggressors! Then onto Being a great team. Leadership starts at the top, but it’s up to all the players to step up. Go Demons in 2020!

I only opened this thread because I misread the title and thought it said "Top 50 wines of the decade". I was curious - not about the wines themsleves, but why Demonland had diversified. Could have been worse. "Top 50 whines of the decade" would be a thread to behold.

I love youse all

for those who appreciate class.....but be warned

Happy Hanukkah too! May you gorge yourself on donuts.

A very Merry Christmas to all at Demonland and a safe and very happy new year?

Merry Christmas Demonlanders. Many thanks to all involved in running this forum. May the boys create heaps of magic on the field in 2020. Go Dees!

Merry Christmas all. I really enjoy this site and the banter amongst the posters. Thanks to the mods.

I want 3 cups to complain about. Merry Christmas.

Merry Christmas and a happy New Year Demonlanders. A disappointing year on field, but always nice to have this place to vent, dissect and hope. Appreciate everyone's banter and insight, enjoy the season and look after yourselves.

Merry Christmas and a happy and SUCCESSFUL new footy season to all.

Merry Christmas one and all. Hope everyone’s noose, uh, membership scarf, arrived in time for the festive season.

A huge thank you to Andy and all others who make Demonland such a wonderful place for us to meet and share our woes, disappointments, hopes, dreams and occasional joys. As an 'interstater', remote from the Melbourne media, I honestly don't know where !'d be without a healthy serve of Demonland to go with my Weet Bix and muesli 365 days a year. Hope Santa was generous with red and blue gifts for everyone, and that 2020 brings something very special, even if we do have to wait until September!

Thanks for that, it reminded me to break out the Kevin Bloody Wilson song today. Not for the more "sensitive" members here. Please take note of the warning