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This is where I get frustrated. As a result of our discussion I went and looked at a replay of the first three quarters to see if in fact I'd got it completely wrong. I tried to focus, as far as I could, on who was playing on who and how they went. It's very hard on TV but you can pick up some things. In the first Grimes seemed to play on Mayne from what I could see. Of course with rotations and the such this isn't a "24/7" thing but that's what I saw. Mayne was pretty much kickless in the first quarter as was Grimes. In the second I watch specifically for Walters and Grimes. Walters had two meaningful possessions in that quarter. One was when we turned the ball over in the centre when Pedersen dropped a regulation chest mark and Hill gathered the ball and speared a pass to Walters who goaled. The second was when Hill again had the ball in the centre well clear and kicked to Walters who was corralled by Grimes but was good enough to gather the bouncing ball and get a really good pass away to Pavlich. It was really good play by Walters and I'd imagine Roos would suggest Grimes did the right thing in staying goal side of Walters and not letting the ball go over the back with Walters running into space and goal. Stinga really good forwards to this sort of thing. Rioli, Wingard, Gray, Ballantyne and Gartlett amongst others do it for a living. They do it on all opponents from time to time because they are exceptional footballers. I get Grimes is the new DL whipping boy and I'm not arguing that he's flying and isn't under pressure for his spot. My belief is that people have predetermined ideas on players and when they watch a game they let these ideas frame how they see their performance. Grimes did nothing wrong in either of those pieces of play. Pedersen did and I'd imagine Cross did because again from what I could see he was tagging Hill. And in the second piece of play nobody mentioned that Pav's opponent didn't cover him and was instrumental to us losing the game. Another classic example is McKenzie's game. He basically didn't make a mistake. He kept his opponent goalless and didn't make a disposal mistake. He had one free kick awarded against him when someone handballed to his feet and he was tackled in gathering the ball and pinged. But if you read the comments after the game day thread you'd think he'd committed murder. He's not a creative player and never will be. We all know this and Roos knows it. Roos wants McKenzie to play his role which he did to perfection but he got no credit from the DL critics. Again I'm not arguing McKenzie is a first 22 player, I don't think he is but he does deserve credit for playing well. What we got was all the McKenzie haters using the game to say he's no good. That isn't what happened on the day. With favourites and villains which we all have it's very hard to see their games in an unbiased way. Mo64 dislikes players and focuses on their mistakes to prove his point. He never mentions or perhaps sees the good things they do. I reckon Dunn is a very overrated player and I thought he was terrible but I didn't say so and when I watched the game again he did basically what Grimes and McKenzie did. He stopped his opponent and did little else. The only comfort we all have is it matters diddly squat what we think and those with much more knowledge than us will make the decisions. We'll see what happens with Grimes. If he's as bad as you say there is no way Roos will pick him. Anyway whilst you think I ignore the evidence in front of me I'd suggest you are guilty of exactly that. But it doesn't actually matter a damn.

I reckon the general drift of comments and likes here is starting to be persuasive. We don't really need a thread that does little more than invite gratuitous dissing of players. If criticising players is appropriate at least it should be done in the context of specific issues in other threads. It's gone.

The Frost trade was instructive for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I along with a lot of other people on here frankly had kittens when I found out what pick we'd given up to get him and what we got back. But Looking at the result of that trade in terms of how good Frost is plus getting ANB and Oscar McD. It now looks inspired. The big lesson out of that for me is that we now have an Admin that is making good decisions. For the first time in a long time I feel like I can trust their judgement. It's a big step and is starting to translate onto the field. The Tyson/Salem trade last year. Frost, ANB, OMcD this year. Getting McCarthy into the coaching group.

I'm all for critiquing players but this thread just seems overtly negative.

You're passionate but you're becoming a bore Dazzle. You with every opportunity to criticize Saty and C&B with his "golden ticket" just devalue everything you both say. And for what it's worth I reckon playing Frost forward went a long way to costing us the game. It meant Garland played on Taberner where he was clearly outsized. With Frost available on the backline I doubt that would have happened. Saty might have been wrong but he was probably also right. We all get you don't like him, just move on.

I rate Howe as a valuable asset both on and off-field. Anyone who still thinks he's just a speccy specialist must have been watching him recently with their eyes closed. His marking is a weapon no doubt but his skills overall are excellent, one of the better field kicks we have, and when he was beaten down back it was usually due to being outsmarted which was to be expected. He is a player on the up and whilst unfortunate that his pre-season has been interrupted, I expect his improvement to continue this season wherever Roos decides to play him. He's also a ripping fella who is clearly a positive influence around the club. Supporters love him. Kids especially love him. All that said, I think a vast majority would be taking Pick 6 for him, if it was actually on offer. Here's hoping his value continues to climb.

I don't get the question.

It seems clear your happy to ignore the evidence right there in front of you. Regardless of what was happening up the ground Walters provided a real spark for freo in the second and Grimes was unable to nullify it. How often last year were our midfield poor yet Jetta managed to keep whoever he was on quiet. It's funny you mention McKenzie. He wasn't on in the second. Although, like Grimes, his disposal is not a strength, at least with McKenzie I know he will shut out his opponent. There were games when the likes of Jetta and McKenzie really claimed a scalp. I don't recall the last time I could say that about Grimes. If he is not going to be an elite user if the ball that is a real issue for him. I agree with you on the umpiring however. It happened a few times last year to us. And it is hard to know if your being biased or we really did cop the rough end of the stick.

I have to admit that I chugged quite a few beers at the "Sail and Anchor" pre game which obviously gave me an acute sense of who played well and who did not. I was desperately disappointed by Gawn, Jamar, Grimes and M. jones. I reckon Gawny just had a very ordinary game and will offer more as the season progresses. Jamar - 11 years in the system and misses from 20m out, nothing more to be said. I rate Matt Jones but in this game he really did himself no favours other than proving he his not AFL standard material. It's time we moved on from MJ and expect more from anyone we draft/trade into the side. MJ and Terlich doing so well in the Bluey a few years ago just goes to prove how thoroughly putrid the team was at the time. Jack Grimes; [censored]-me-dead. When will this bloke rediscover his form and ability to play the rebounding HBF'r we know he can. So frustrating that a player can regress so much under what is clearly an improved development environment. Ben Newton was an absolute steal. Got him for nothing and the bloke can play. Garlett showed he's an AFL player will only get better as the season progresses. Dawes - not convinced. Just does not have the footy smarts as you would usually see as evidence in general marking contests. Bringing the ball to ground is great but FFS, avoid the over processing and grab the [censored] thing like a man possessed from the get-go. He's been around long enough to perform better than he has been - 2014 season included. Hoges will be a gem as the season progresses although he's going to get a lot of attention. It'll be interesting to see what tactics Roosy employs in order for Jesse to be competing in most F50 entries. I still haven't watched the replay of the game yet and to be honest, Fremantle oval offers very little "elevated viewing" so it was difficult to form a decent opinion on play etc.

Good thread everyone. Almost made it half a page before completely losing the topic

Bail - was scarcely noticed Cross - professional as always Dawes - played his part Dunn - lacked normal ferociousness Frost - athleticism and aggression Garland - worryingly careless occasionally Garlett - encouraging second half Gawn - had little influence Grimes - tight but wasteful Hogan - gradually displayed potential Jamar - had little influence Jones M. - never inspired confidence Jones N. - always inspired confidence Kennedy- Harris - disappointing first game Jetta - useful before injury Kent - some useful involvement Lumumba - loved his carry McDonald - was generally sound Newton - looked at home Tyson - prolific but wasteful McKenzie - struggled for relevance Pedersen - didn't enjoy conditions Salem - a little disappointing Toumpas - had little impact Van den Berg - size and talent

Saints taking over by a large margin as game goes on. AFL rushing to the drawer labelled 'soft penalty ideas'.

I don't think he's a lock he would want to do more than he did against Freo. I think his selection will depend on what Roos values more skill (Salem, Toumpas)or experience (Grimes, Garland). I'm surprised no one has commented on Pedersen who most people have replacing Dawes. 5 disposals 40%DE and dropped a sitter, we have to use someone better than that. I'm also surprised that no one has commented on Michie while he didn't set the world on fire I thought he was pretty good, statistically he was rated our 4th best player. I would have him ahead of the likes of M.Jones, Bail an McKenzie every day of the week.

Honestly my hope watching this match was just to find that we weren't totally inept. Sometimes I believe that the problems of this football club are so ingrained and so unsolvable no matter how good the coaching, facilities or administration we will remain firmly glued to the bottom of the ladder, for ever So whilst this was just a practice match and, yes, some of our skills were horribly reminiscent of our 2013 selves, I don't think anyone can deny there were signs of football life. And let's face it playing an almost full strength Freo side at home is a tough assignment for a top 8 team let alone a perennial cellar dweller like us. For almost whole quarters there were signs that our 26 representatives actually knew how to play AFL football. On what is a tragically small sample size and which will no doubt be proved completely wrong next week, I believe, we may have a few different things to look forward to this year. Ben Newton. Ok, so less than two quarters of a practice match form to go by but we have possibly added another member to join Jones, Tyson and Vince as AFL standard centre square mids. 13 possessions, 6 of those contested, 2 clearances and one goal is a handy contribution before retiring hurt with a sore face. I wanted to find out the name of the fourth horseman of the apocalypse and start calling him that but perhaps will wait for him to play a full match Some Centre Square dominance. If you are anything like me when the ump bounces the ball I just naturally turn to look at the oppositions forward line. It hasn't been since we were talking up Brent Moloney for All Australian selection that we consistently won it out of the middle (and doesn't that seem like a long time ago). We won first bounce clearances 10/5 on Thursday night Garlett. Not a wonderful game from Jeffy but there will be some opposition defenders who are normally used to casually strolling out of our backline who will find life a fair bit tougher this year. I think he, Hogan, JKH and Dawes could become a formidable hunting group. Hogan. You sort of know already that whichever defender gets the job of playing on Jesse is in for a fairly miserable day. The kid is aggressive and won't take a backward step. He has genuine attitude. I'm a Tom McDonald fan but I would love it if he had some of Hogans grunt. Matching anti-social CHB and CHF bookends, along with a winning midfield would signal a new beginning for us. Inside 50's. We won these as well on Thursday. As Roos said we didn't win this stat too often last year. Hopefully a sign of things to come Lumumba. Ultra consistent. Has played every and all 253 games available over the last five years (or something like that). Like his B & F result from last year was one of his teams best four this week. Same player, new jumper, will make us better Frosty. There are going to be times where he streams through the centre of the G and does something brilliant and there will be times where the same run ends in tears. Either way it will be exciting to watch. Yes, I know that it will all probably come crashing down in seven days time when we play the Bulldogs in Ballarat but up till then I will remain optimistic about this year. We definitely will improve, I suppose it just remains to be seen by how much.

Clearly the club wanted a strong showing in contests and to implement a more attacking game-plan, but I don't think "winning" was the primary focus. These games are all about trialing. They'll benefit from knowing Frost is a more competent backman than forward.

I can go either way in this one; if he stays that's good, but if he goes I think we'll get overs for him and we can use it to help us get something more useful for our midfield.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/contact-us

I liked the idea of Frost froward but I was wrong, he looked very good in the backline and offered just as much (maybe even more than with his height) as Frawley did.

Jeremy Howe does not sell tickets to games. Liam Jurrah did, Alan Jacovich did and to some limited extent, Mitch Clark did. Had a reasonable year across the half backline last year, not great though. Certainly should try and keep him, but if we can work him into a trade for Sheil or Treloar, it's a no brainer really.

It's a circumlocutory way of asking who you'd delist I suppose. And for exactly this reason, i.e. it's a negative attempting to disguise itself as a positive ('recruiting choices' replacing delisting ones). They're what Don Watson calls weasel words (as are mine since I've substituted 'negative' for what should probably just be 'nastiness').

It would follow from this that, as the ' provisional' suspension is in effect a "Clayton's Suspension", any penalty cannot include this time as it is not a bona fide penalty (viz. no backdating)!

Toumpas was the 3rd leading tackler for the Dees with 5. I saw him go in hard and lay a couple of good tackles. Still waiting for Jack Watts to do that. Anyway i still have the faith we can still develop him into a good player for us. Its not like he is a Morton Blease Watts that just goes through the emotions, I did see him putting in the hard yards and running hard to provide an option. he will come good.

True I was being overly simplistic. He's proven to be a great defender, but there's been persistent rumours he doesn't like Roos' disciplined approach to his style, moving him to the backline and making him a stringent defender. His intercept marking has been sensational though so it's been a great move on Roosy's part. It would be interesting to see the poll results of whether people would've jumped (sorry, bad pun) at pick 6 for Howe last year. It seemed to be on the table at the last minute from GWS. Would've meant nabbing Lever or Cockatoo in the draft, both equally promising in my eyes.

Just reading about the issues with Carlton's membership department and it got me thinking how good our membership guys have been every single time I've rung them over the years. Never had to hold for more than a few minutes, always able to resolve my issues/queries while I was on the phone or very shortly after, always quick to call me back and importantly always knew what they were talking about etc etc Just wanted to put this here so anyone reading who works or volunteers there can get the feedback and kudos they deserve.

Very harsh on Cross, he a very good consistent footballer.

To be fair I think Howe has shown more than that. I thought he did a pretty good job down back, rarely beaten one on one, took some terrific intercept grabs and he is an above average field kick (although he is prone to the odd mistake.) I see what you're saying but I think he brings more to the club than just a good speccie these days.

Have to admit Mcqueen when I saw Frost lining up at Forward I had a little chuckle to myself, after th eresponse you copped from TDI People who think they have the trust of the inner sanctum or playing group established over a long period of time do not post their info on forums Good get Mcqueen

Footy is lies.

There is no way in the world that, barring injury, Tommy Mac won't play every game.

This is the type of game which can be viewed from a "glass half full" or a "glass half empty" approach; and you could be justified in mounting your argument. I prefer to take the "why isn't someone getting me another beer!" approach, when I reach the halfway mark (yes looking forward to the future). Observations: first up the hot, humid conditions was not conducive for big men; so can't judge [Pedersen], Jamar, Gawn, Dunn, etc to harshly Still Dunn looked disinterested Garland doesn't seem to have a spot and [Pedersen] is not a ruck Some players were played out of position which effected them and/or others around them Our small forwards didn't really fire until we removed one of the talls from forward line Frost could potentially be an AA backman, definitely not a forward though Lumbumba likes space, not an inside midfielder Garlett is not a midfielder Our game plan looked a lot more progressive (not quite aggressive) despite the conditions effect on the skills. When was the last time we came close to matching inside 50's let alone have more. As the forwards combinations get better and our skills improve (remember the conditions, and missing players i.e. vince, watts) this will convert into goals. Our midfield matched it with one of the best, and for large portions of the game I thought we were on top, particularly around the contest - some of the quick gives was fantastic (yes the didn't have Fyfe, but we didn't have Viney and Vince) Improvements is already noticeable: Frost looks like he will add to our Key Position backs, and his run and delivery looks to add to our transitional play McDonald and Jetta gradual progression looks set to continue Lumbumba improves the backline as well, and adds to our transitional play Jones, Tyson and Newton looks like the foundation of a decent 'inside' midfield that have enough skills to also deliver. Hope Viney can step up A forward line with Dawes, JKH, Garlett, Kent and perhaps Vanders provides a lot of forward pressure that will make life easier for our midfield The whipping boys are not as bad as they are made out: I will be lambasted for this, but I thought McKenzie played well (we certainly didn't lose anything for him replacing Jetta) and his opponent rarely gets noticed. A lockdown player on their dangerous small i.e. (the Crowley role) is perfect fit for him - it's actually what backs are meant to do first, before getting possession and being creative (Lumbumba) Grimes on a night where everyone made mistakes, including Jones, Tyson, Cross and Lumbumba; Grimes gets highlighted for his. I didn't really notice him today, which I don't know is a good thing or bad thing. Jamar is competitive in the ruck and their ruck didn't really play of him; okay Jamar didn't get stats around the ground but not did his opposition. If he can do that in games, then that is a breakeven and serviceable. There is potential depth to the side when you consider: Garland doesn't seem to have a logical fit anymore when Frost, McDonald and Dunn are the 3 Talls; Lumbumba, Howe, play medium and Jetta, Grimes, Mckenzie play smalls Watts doesn't seem to have a walk up start when you look at a forward line of Hogan, Dawes, resting ruck, as the talls; Howe, Vanders, resting mid, as mediums; and Garlett, Kent, JKH as small forwards. There is no walkup start as an outside midfielder when Vince, Lumbumba, Salem and Newton can play this role. When Bail or Matt Jones don't even form part of your thinking despite doing adequately Going on what was presented last night against a strong finals side; a starting 22 is taking shape: Backs- Dunn McDonald Jetta; Lumbumba Frost Grimes (Salem) Midfield - Jamar, Tyson, Viney; Vince Jones Newton Forwards - Garlett, Dawes, Bail; JKH Hogan Howe Bench Gawn (ruck third tall), Mckenzie (small back, midfield coverage or lockdown role on dangerous opposition), Salem (for outside run), Vanders as sub or make Salem sub and replace with Cross Okay Cross has to fit in somewhere, and then there's Watts, Kent whilst Matt Jones also has a role to play; Toumpass should also improve - a good position to be in A bit controversial, but I would include Garland as a forward as Hogan/Dawes will need a chop out from a medium tall that can also apply pressure (which unfortunately is not a resting ruck, or Watts) I would probably interchange Howe, Newton and Lumbumba on the wing through a game Edit updated to include Bail

Said this in the other thread, but may as well put it in the post match: We are a bottom 6 side who didn't get blown away by a top 6 side, and could have even perhaps won. HUGE POSITIVE. What is sad for me, is that I'm not sure Grimes will soon have a place on the team anymore once kids like Salem, and to lesser extent Toumpas (who won't be a gun like those drafted around him, but will be a bloody solid competitor all the same) fully mature and develop.

Learn about the free agency rules before you post your golden ticket rubbish Curry. Amazes me how little you know about football.

They're only provisionally suspended. The sections you quoted are for when they're fully suspended and ineligible, which only happens after they're found guilty. For the moment, the only real restriction is that they can't compete, but as it's the off-season, it hasn't had much visible impact.

Viney, Watts and Salem

Bail - just a player. Cross - seen better days. Dawes - very necessary target. Dunn - will get better. Frost - young and fresh. Garland - another Chip Frawley. Garlett - inconsistent but effective. Gawn - very ordinary effort. Grimes - sub par player. Hogan - can play football. Jamar - just another game. Jones M. - not much upstairs. Jones N. - leads by example. Kennedy- Harris - not really noticed. Jetta - accountable, tough, smart. Kent - kid has skills. Lumumba - good repeat efforts. McDonald - needs skills training. Newton - poised, classy, reliable. Tyson - can find football. McKenzie - good VFL player. Pedersen - needs higher standards. Salem - not used enough. Toumpas - demonland whipping boy. Van den Berg - another Michael Barlow.

Disgusting the league has not clarified the provisional suspension situation too the public instead allowing essendon to treat the process likea joke and ignore it altogether.

I enjoyed the style of play they were playing. I can't remember when our midfielders were on top of centre clearances and stoppages. The first kick after clearance let us down so often. Newton was brilliant first Q. Tyson was great all night. Hogan was a bit frustrated and went into the midfield to get his hands on the ball. Ball handling in general was a bit rusty, they will work through that in the next month. Van den berg showed his worth. H showed the backline the way to do it. Frost was classy big and fast. Everything is good and has improved on last year.

JETTA FROST DUNN SALEM MCDONALD GARLAND LAMUMBA JONES WATTS HOWE HOGAN KENT GARLETT PEDERSEN GAWN JAMAR TYSON NEWTON VINEY CROSS TOUMPAS VANDENBERG Really keen to see how we go against the Doggies. The conditions yesterday I think were very difficult and if any team is going to make it difficult for you to execute your gameplan - it's Ross Lyon's Fremantle. Now that the cobwebs have been somewhat blown-out and the pressure from the opposition eased, I'm expecting us to push the Doggies and hopefully have a good win. I've included Frost, who I believe was the major positive out of yesterday, while I've excluded Grimes from a line-up for the first time in years. Not writing him off, but he needs to find some form and confidence in the next two practice matches to be a chance. Hopefully Watts and Howe are match fit for the first round, but I'm not holding my breath on Vince.

What change? Toumpas was rated in the top 3 talents all year according to the 'experts' and then GWS took the Vic boys because they fear losing their players unless they have a pre-existing relationship... When Toumpas became available we took the 'better' prospect. Wines was a highly rated junior and is easily the better AFL player. There are so many holes in selecting talent at such a young age it would be laughable if it weren't so painful...

Are you suggesting there was a time when it didn't RPFC?

This may be a great thread idea, but I suspect all Picket really wanted to do was to find another way to criticise Toumpas. Mate, we know what you think. Time to give it a rest.

Well, thanks to whoever deleted my post-match thread, moved my post-match post to the match thread then locked that thread and started a post-match thread. Here's what I wrote over there:: The good: - Jonesy: I reckon most people would throw this down as a given by now, but when was the last time we had a player of his class that we knew would give us an a-grade, if not marquee level game, week in week out? He may not be a star of the competition, but he is the heart and soul of this team. The guy is a gun. - Newton: Stoked to see his preseason form show against a top 4 level team. I expected to see him have a dip and give us something on the inside, but did not expect his level of class. Is going to be a gun for us. - Van den berg... Bloody hell... This guy can can find a football! On top of that, he was damaging with it! Anyone with dream team is mad not to throw this guy in. - Hoges: First game back and played like he was born for it. Wasn't a superstar on return, but played his role and played it well. Was consistently creating contests the whole night and even if he never improved, which he will, could carve out a respectable career at the level he played at tonight. - Lamumba: huge presence. Wasn't the best I've seen him play, but brought so much to the team just by being there. - McDonald and Frost: Could not ask for better pillars in defence. - Tyson: forgot to mention him because I was gonna throw him in with Jonesy. All class. Not much to say except that this guy is a gun. - Etc: Offence was much better. Generally impressed with the younger lads' endeavour. Showed a more offensive side of the game. Dawes: One. Grab. The bad: - Grimesy: Love the guy, but is so unreliable at the moment. Hope this improves with more time to focus on his own game. - Kicking long to Garlett: let him crumb. The amount of times we kicked long to a contest between Garlett and one or two of Freo's taller defenders was just silly. - Dunny: Nowhere near last year's standard. There's probably more, but I mainly wanted to focus on the positives anyway. A number of other players showed good signs and bad. Overall, we've noticeably improved from last year. All the new recruits added to the team and I think losing Frawley has actually made us better. The most disappointing thing was that we were outclassed. We looked well coached, had a good balance of offense and defence etc, but we were simply outclassed by Freo. Vince would've helped and if Watts is improving his contested game, then he would've been of benefit as well. From what I can read into a single NAB cup game, we have finally turned the corner and are reaching towards mediocrity. We won't make the eight, but we will be in the lower echelon of that mix. Bring on next week.

We also won't get band 1 compo because he isn't a free agent...

jugglers, sword swallowers, flame eaters and dwarf throwing

How about the Reserve GF? Just a thought. I worked with Kiss in 2002 when the played with the MSO at Etihad. Great guys but it is now 2015 Can't half tell music is dead now in terms of relevance...

The Doobies was a tongue in cheek suggestion, I thought they were dead. Who needs entertainment? The Grand Final is the entertainment! The Rolling Stones don't put on a football match at interval!

what's wrong the Tramways Band if we must have music.......and some nice girl's marching teams

I'm too antisocial to sit with other yobbos. I prefer to consume drugs,watch us lose , go home quietly,then fly into a rage. I find the interaction on here personal enough. I've met some very strange individuals on here and after meeting Bbo " in the flesh" so to speak, I could not possibly risk meeting any more deviates .

With respect, you're the one speaking rubbish. Naturally, depth has been an issue, but more-so elite talent at the pointy end that has the capacity to influence match day results has been dire. Senior players set the tone at a club, not "depth players". Lack of "depth players" may prevent finals appearances, or even a flag, but lack of "star quality" players prevents any kind of success.