Preseason Training - Week commencing 11/12/17

[jnrmac 20,090]

21 minutes ago, hemingway said:

I think we need to give the kid a break.

I am not arguing with your analysis.

However,  young players take different lengths of time to develop. 

There a few like Oliver that can impact a game immediately but most take time. 

We would all expect Oscar to make significant improvement in 2018, otherwise he will be playing at Casey.

However, its not just Oscar but a whole team and a coach that needs to take the next step in 2018, otherwise all hell will break loose.   

We know he is a developing player. He can be very frustrating to watch and that its part and parcel of developing players. But I see mostly what STMJ sees. A player that doesn't have any special attributes and doesn't do anything particularly well. He is largely in for his height IMO and I maintain that if we had alternatives he would be learning his craft at Casey, not in the senior team.

And you can't deny (although some will try (hi Binman)) that we were 18th for one on one contests in our defensive 50 and 18th for opposition scores from defensive 50 entries. When Nev and Hibberd are AA defenders that doesn't leave too many others to point the finger at.

Others think he will make it, I don't. But I barrack for the Dees and I hope he does. It would be a great story and I would be glad to eat humble pie.

[Dingo 1,059]

Jones 

limped off the ground after injuring himself in a marking contest.I think it’s an ankle.Taken to rooms in the buggy.Did not appear to be in much pain.

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

Got there at 10:40 for a look. Good crowd.

Salem and Viney came out late for a walk around. 

Only saw the 3 younger draftees leaving.

Absent: Tracc?, Vanders, Weeds, Hogan, McKenna, Smith x 2, Kent. DJ?

Usual ball movement stuff in bigger drills. Small drills with kicking, hand balling and marking.

Jeffy and T Mc did small stuff instead of main later drills

Pros:

Fritsch leads to space well, nice low kick.

Balic can find the ball, kicking up and down but he can get in to space 

Clarence

Wagner - I’m still a believer 

Flippers is a mobile big man. The academy King lad is a star in the making, won’t be for us, easy athleticism and skills.

Tyson moving well 

Nibbler. Pedersen. 

Cons:

Brayshaw needs a constant coaching rocket IMO. Makes silly errors, needs focus.

Hannan dropping marks, has a high stepping run that should be fixed 

Lewis: pedestrian in one on one marking, won’t win many contests down back 

[DeeSpencer 25,713]

2 academy kids were training. King was in the 1. A solid built lad in 26.

A third smaller guy in the 37. I didn’t go asking questions and thought someone might’ve had the scoop on here? Was it the junior Wiz?

[ManDee 7,153]

On 12/14/2017 at 11:02 AM, demons123452000 said:

How great it is for us country Demons to see the names with the photos. I have never been to a training session @ only get to about 3 games so to be able to get a better idea on faces and names is great. love the lever deal but will miss JW. Go Dees

Are you a country member?

 

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

14 minutes ago, ManDee said:

Are you a country member?

 

OK, I'll oblige.  I remember

[TeamPlayedFine39 8,508]

3 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

If I knew how (and could be bothered) to edit enough of his contests this year, it would clearly show how much of a liability he was in many games.

There are four simple outcomes from a contested situation as a defender:

1 - Win it

2 - Halve it to create a reset in play. (Stoppage, throw-in etc).

3 - Have no impact.

4 - Lose it by making an error. (Turn-over, non-spoil attempt, positional error etc).

 

This year, Oscar was clearly thrown in the deep-end and was ‘allowed’ to find his way due to our lack of talent and depth of key position players. That view is evidenced by our trade and draft period this year.

His games were almost always full of 3’s with some scattered 4’s throughout the year. It was rare that he ever won a contest. And it wasn’t often that he halved them. 

It’s a simple thing to do. Watch any replay and judge him using those 4 outcomes as a measure.

I think the comments on his effort, intensity and appetite and impact on the contest are off the money.  In 2017, Oscar had more tackles than Hibberd and more 1%s than Hibberd and Jetta combined.  His efforts to contest is what’s getting him selected week in, week out.

 

But, each to their own.  The coaches clearly love him and I love him too!

[Lucifers Hero 39,820]

No credit to me for this report - it is a copy of 'Proper Gander's' post on bigfooty: 

 

"Okay so I have quizzed Ancient about training today so here are the things I learned:

Kent and Salem absent - probably hiding from Goody following the great boot camp mutiny. The rehab group included Hogan, Weed, Tommy - also the new dudes were separate from the main group doing some drills with Crossey and Garland, apart from the Casey guy whose name I can’t ever remember how to spell. Is it Fritsch? Anyway he was with the main group. Ancient didn’t see Petracca training at all but he must have done stuff with the rehab group early because he had a nice chat with him as he (Ancient) arrived and Trac was heading back to AAMI. He was shirtless so presumably had been running or something, unless he is just your run-of-the-mill partial nudist.

Hogan and Weed had a sort of goal kicking competition which Hogan won apparently.

It sounds like they were doing the same sort of drills as previous sessions. So they spent some time split into groups of defenders, mids and forwards doing things. Lewis is grouped with defenders at present. Ancient reckons Lever looks excellent, and is very vocal and encouraging and so forth. A very self confident young man.

He also singled out Brayshaw and Oliver for training house down honours. There was lots of running and then some match simulation type drills, moving the ball quickly through the corridor. The general impression was that everyone looked sharp so we had better win lots of things or I’ll get angry.

Apparently McCartney gave Pig a mighty serve for something or other - lots of authentic yelling and “if you don’t like it you can leave” stuff. Don’t know what provoked it, but Hibberd didn’t leave so presumably learned to like whatever it was that needed liking.

That’s pretty much all the detail I have except for the report that the Santa Claus seemed creepy somehow and Daisy was having her photo taken with about a million kids".

 

...Thanks 'Proper Gander' - a very entertaining report.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Lucifer's Hero

[binman 42,986]

1 hour ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

I think the comments on his effort, intensity and appetite and impact on the contest are off the money.  In 2017, Oscar had more tackles than Hibberd and more 1%s than Hibberd and Jetta combined.  His efforts to contest is what’s getting him selected week in, week out.

 

But, each to their own.  The coaches clearly love him and I love him too!

Statistics can be very misleading and we all know that in isolation they are often of little value. At the same time they have value, which is why professional scouts across all professional sports place such an emphasis on them and they can be useful in terms of countering any confirmation bias observers might have 

Lever and Tmac's younger brother make for a fascinating statistical comparison. They are a really good duo to compare given they are almost exactly the same age, were drafted in the same year, almost the same height and weight and of most significance have played very similar roles and positions thus far in their career (meaning apples are not being compared to oranges when for instance comparing the DE of a mid to a player across HB who does a lot of short sideway chips). 

Now to be clear about how i rate Tmac's younger brother i think he is good player and last year really started to hit his straps in the second half of the year, only his second full year at AFL and he has huge upside. For a young KP he his ticking all the boxes and i expect him to play 200 plus games for the dees. I rate him higher that than Tmac at the same age and think he will end up being a better player, not least because his disposal is so much better. 

Of course i think Lever is a better player than Tmac's younger brother, he is a star already and is only going to get better. I am over the moon about drafting him. So please don't get me wrong i am not arguing these stats are  evidence they are of equal ability because they're not. But nonetheless they are remarkably similar and given how good Lever unarguably is they reflect well on Tmac's younger brother. They will make a formidable defensive combination. 

Player Statistics Comparison
	Oscar McDonald Name Jake Lever Melbourne Demons Team Melbourne Demons Defender Position Defender 37 Career Games 56 North Ballarat Rebels Origin Calder Cannons March 18, 1996 Date of Birth March 5, 1996 21yr 8mth Age 21yr 9mth 196cm Height 195cm 97kg Weight 93kg 2014 National Draft Last Drafted In 2014 National Draft Round 3, Pick #53 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #14 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Adelaide Crows Career Stats for Season Career 37 Games 56 8.7 Kicks Per Game 10.1 7.0 Handballs Per Game 5.3 15.7 Disposals Per Game 15.4 5.0 Marks Per Game 5.5 0 Goals Per Game 0.1 0 Behinds Per Game 0.1 1.6 Tackles Per Game 1.3 0 Hitouts Per Game 0 1.1 Inside 50s Per Game 1.3 0.1 Goal Assists Per Game 0.1 0.6 Frees For Per Game 1.0 0.7 Frees Against Per Game 1.0 5.2 Contested Possessions Per Game 5.6 10.4 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 9.8 12.2 Effective Disposals Per Game 12.1 77.7% Disposal Efficiency % Per Game 78.6% 1.8 Clangers Per Game 2.2 0.5 Contested Marks Per Game 0.8 0 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0.1 0.4 Clearances Per Game 0.1 2.5 Rebound 50s Per Game 3.1 6.8 One Percenters Per Game 5.4 0 Bounces Per Game 0.2 89.3 Time On Ground % Per Game 85.8 0.1 Centre Clearances Per Game 0 0.3 Stoppage Clearances Per Game 0.1 1.8 Score Involvements Per Game 2.9 213.9 Metres Gained Per Game 242.0 2.5 Turnovers Per Game 2.7 6.3 Intercepts Per Game 7.8 0 Tackles Inside 50 Per Game 0

Edited December 15, 2017 by binman

[jnrmac 20,090]

8 minutes ago, binman said:

Statistics can be very misleading and we all know that in isolation they are often of little value. At the same time they have value, which is why professional scouts across all professional sports place such an emphasis on them and they can be useful in terms of countering any confirmation bias observers might have 

Lever and Tmac's younger brother make for a fascinating statistical comparison. They are a really good duo to compare given they are almost exactly the same age, were drafted in the same year, almost the same height and weight and of most significance have played very similar roles and positions thus far in their career (meaning apples are not being compared to oranges when for instance comparing the DE of a mid to a player across HB who does a lot of short sideway chips). 

Now to be clear about how i rate Tmac's younger brother i think he is good player and last year really started to hit his straps in the second half of the year, only his second full year at AFL and he has huge upside. For a young KP he his ticking all the boxes and i expect him to play 200 plus games for the dees. I rate him higher that than Tmac at the same age and think he will end up being a better player, not least because his disposal is so much better. 

Of course i think Lever is a better player than Tmac's younger brother, he is a star already and is only going to get better. I am over the moon about drafting him. So please don't get me wrong i am not arguing these stats are  evidence they are of equal ability because they're not. But nonetheless they are remarkably similar and given how good Lever unarguably is they reflect well on Tmac's younger brother. They will make a formidable defensive combination. 

Can't quite bring yourself to call him by his own name I see. Probably brings up bad memories for you  

[Gator 17,361]

19 minutes ago, binman said:

Statistics can be very misleading and we all know that in isolation they are often of little value. At the same time they have value, which is why professional scouts across all professional sports place such an emphasis on them and they can be useful in terms of countering any confirmation bias observers might have 

Lever and Tmac's younger brother make for a fascinating statistical comparison. They are a really good duo to compare given they are almost exactly the same age, were drafted in the same year, almost the same height and weight and of most significance have played very similar roles and positions thus far in their career (meaning apples are not being compared to oranges when for instance comparing the DE of a mid to a player across HB who does a lot of short sideway chips). 

Now to be clear about how i rate Tmac's younger brother i think he is good player and last year really started to hit his straps in the second half of the year, only his second full year at AFL and he has huge upside. For a young KP he his ticking all the boxes and i expect him to play 200 plus games for the dees. I rate him higher that than Tmac at the same age and think he will end up being a better player, not least because his disposal is so much better. 

Of course i think Lever is a better player than Tmac's younger brother, he is a star already and is only going to get better. I am over the moon about drafting him. So please don't get me wrong i am not arguing these stats are  evidence they are of equal ability because they're not. But nonetheless they are remarkably similar and given how good Lever unarguably is they reflect well on Tmac's younger brother. They will make a formidable defensive combination. 

Player Statistics Comparison
	Oscar McDonald Name Jake Lever Melbourne Demons Team Melbourne Demons Defender Position Defender 37 Career Games 56 North Ballarat Rebels Origin Calder Cannons March 18, 1996 Date of Birth March 5, 1996 21yr 8mth Age 21yr 9mth 196cm Height 195cm 97kg Weight 93kg 2014 National Draft Last Drafted In 2014 National Draft Round 3, Pick #53 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #14 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Adelaide Crows Career Stats for Season Career 37 Games 56 8.7 Kicks Per Game 10.1 7.0 Handballs Per Game 5.3 15.7 Disposals Per Game 15.4 5.0 Marks Per Game 5.5 0 Goals Per Game 0.1 0 Behinds Per Game 0.1 1.6 Tackles Per Game 1.3 0 Hitouts Per Game 0 1.1 Inside 50s Per Game 1.3 0.1 Goal Assists Per Game 0.1 0.6 Frees For Per Game 1.0 0.7 Frees Against Per Game 1.0 5.2 Contested Possessions Per Game 5.6 10.4 Uncontested Possessions Per Game 9.8 12.2 Effective Disposals Per Game 12.1 77.7% Disposal Efficiency % Per Game 78.6% 1.8 Clangers Per Game 2.2 0.5 Contested Marks Per Game 0.8 0 Marks Inside 50 Per Game 0.1 0.4 Clearances Per Game 0.1 2.5 Rebound 50s Per Game 3.1 6.8 One Percenters Per Game 5.4 0 Bounces Per Game 0.2 89.3 Time On Ground % Per Game 85.8 0.1 Centre Clearances Per Game 0 0.3 Stoppage Clearances Per Game 0.1 1.8 Score Involvements Per Game 2.9 213.9 Metres Gained Per Game 242.0 2.5 Turnovers Per Game 2.7 6.3 Intercepts Per Game 7.8 0 Tackles Inside 50 Per Game 0

I find the constant referencing of Oscar McDonald as Tmac's younger brother utterly bizarre.

Btw, showing kick, mark and handball stats to compare tall defenders is useless.

Intercept possession defenders are the most valuable in the games, as it's where attacking possessions start, and Lever was no.1 in the AFL in 2017.  Rance second.  Lever was also the 2nd best intercept mark in the competition behind Jeromy McGovern. 

This is no slight on Oscar McDonald, as he's coming on and won't be playing his best footy until at least 2021 when he's 25.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

Didn't see Jones injury, must've been looking elsewhere. 

Nice day to watch at Gosches. Everyone trained the house down. I spoke to everyone. Highlights were seeing Lever deliver a crunching tackle to remind a team mate there are no easy possessions and observing the new slimmed down look for Gawn, pedo and others. Also the fight between the checker mascot and the poodle near the coffee tent, shouldn't give dogs caffeine. 

Nice bbq by the demon army. Much appreciated. ?

Smaller than expected crowd. They probably told the coach they didn't want to attend.

Any questions, ask. 

[Bitter but optimistic 22,241]

Bitter's observations

Snags and coffee were very good but I managed to show reasonable restraint.

Saw Hogan run a bit a have a couple of kicks. He didn't train in the main session but seemed to be moving freely. Saw the Weid but he didn't train. Neither did Trac but I was told he was there.

Max looks like the world's tallest marathon runner. He took a couple of clean strong grabs in the match simulation but, in fairness, there was no opponent near his height on those occasions.

Pedo also looks like he has kept off the cheeseburgers and got  a couple of slick handballs away during the simulation exercise.

Balic, who I have never seen before, also showed a bit. He maybe a surprise.

Tmac looks great. He left the main training and finished running some laps. 

Jeffy looks really fit. As you would expect he showed form in the sprints and was certain in set goalkicking.

I never really watched Lever before. But he did everything well and was always near the front in running drills. He gave the impression that he's going all out to show what he can do and set a positive tone and example. Very impressive.

Generally kicking looked good but a couple of easy marks were spilled.

The stand out for me though was Clarrie. He looked mean and lean and had very safe hands. He appeared to have more of the ball than anyone.

Like Moonie above, I did not see Jones injured.

[dworship 3,342]

So we (Mrs Worship aka "The Stalker) went down for our first training session for the season. Generally I thought the boys looked good and went through a solid session. As others have noticed in recent times training is at high intensity/speed for the most part and  you rarely see the ball hit the ground by comparison to other years. I particularly wanted to have a look at Lever, Balic, Maynard and the new boys. Lever is everything others have said, we're very happy with the addition. Balic had more size to him than I thought and didn't do a lot wrong. I think he is building nicely. Maynard with a full preseason will be pushing everyone for a permanent midfield role. Of the new "kids" Bayley Fritsch seemed to be in everything and that seemed to be by design ie a lot of players were looking for him and finding him. Also liked the look of "Krusty" although he appeared to be on limited time.

One piece of late info I overheard, which we're not happy about if true, is the absence of Hunt (a Stalker favorite) may be linked to a back injury and the word serious was mentioned.

[martin 727]

10 minutes ago, dworship said:

So we (Mrs Worship aka "The Stalker) went down for our first training session for the season. Generally I thought the boys looked good and went through a solid session. As others have noticed in recent times training is at high intensity/speed for the most part and  you rarely see the ball hit the ground by comparison to other years. I particularly wanted to have a look at Lever, Balic, Maynard and the new boys. Lever is everything others have said, we're very happy with the addition. Balic had more size to him than I thought and didn't do a lot wrong. I think he is building nicely. Maynard with a full preseason will be pushing everyone for a permanent midfield role. Of the new "kids" Bayley Fritsch seemed to be in everything and that seemed to be by design ie a lot of players were looking for him and finding him. Also liked the look of "Krusty" although he appeared to be on limited time.

One piece of late info I overheard, which we're not happy about if true, is the absence of Hunt (a Stalker favorite) may be linked to a back injury and the word serious was mentioned.

Hunt looked very unhappy in the rehab group on Monday. Surely not.

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

7 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

2 academy kids were training. King was in the 1. A solid built lad in 26.

A third smaller guy in the 37. I didn’t go asking questions and thought someone might’ve had the scoop on here? Was it the junior Wiz?

The young guy in the 37 is a young Indigenous player from our Next Gen Academy

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

Trac and Hoges are fine, minor niggles, spoke to both

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

I have posted some of my usual slighty blurry but ever so good photos on Instagram, hopefully that nice Mr Demonland will move them here for those that don't partake

Edited December 15, 2017 by Satyriconhome

[binman 42,986]

5 hours ago, ProDee said:

Btw, showing kick, mark and handball stats to compare tall defenders is useless.

Intercept possession defenders are the most valuable in the games, as it's where attacking possessions start, and Lever was no.1 in the AFL in 2017.  Rance second.  Lever was also the 2nd best intercept mark in the competition behind Jeromy McGovern. 

 

Agree, though i think DE, clangers and turnovers are useful points of comparisons for any defender given the damage done by poor disposals in the back half - and Tmac's younger brother compares pretty well to Lever in that regard.

I also think 1 percenters are relatively important stats for defenders and no 28 has Lever there

Also agree that intercepts are the most critical stat and once again, over their careers Tmac's younger brother stacks up not badly at all to Lever (6.3 to 7.8 per game respectively). 

[Demonland 72,213]

 

[dee-tox 4,835]

15 hours ago, binman said:

Absolute rubbish. 

Binman says absolute rubbish! ... giggle, giggle!

[Deemania since 56 6,640]

10 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Trac and Hoges are fine, minor niggles, spoke to both

NIce work, great news, well done.

[Guest]

20 hours ago, jnrmac said:

We know he is a developing player. He can be very frustrating to watch and that its part and parcel of developing players. But I see mostly what STMJ sees. A player that doesn't have any special attributes and doesn't do anything particularly well. He is largely in for his height IMO and I maintain that if we had alternatives he would be learning his craft at Casey, not in the senior team.

And you can't deny (although some will try (hi Binman)) that we were 18th for one on one contests in our defensive 50 and 18th for opposition scores from defensive 50 entries. When Nev and Hibberd are AA defenders that doesn't leave too many others to point the finger at.

Others think he will make it, I don't. But I barrack for the Dees and I hope he does. It would be a great story and I would be glad to eat humble pie.

I hope he makes it but he has a couple of potentially fatal flaws. 

A lack of agility and strength. 

He will need to gain significantly in one or both areas to beat forwards consistently.

[napster 191]

re Friday training - impressed by Balic, good decisions and disposal by foot. Has the hand moves in tight that can send opponents the wrong way. 
Oskar Baker is a smooth mover and liked what I saw of his kicking. At the AGM he said that when he was cut by the Brisbane Academy he was only 160cm, so no wonder they let him go. 
 

[Hot as Hell 466]

O with a C has much more to prove than the new O with a K. 

The jury is still out on both. One becuase he has never played an AFL game and the other because he has!