POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 7

[John Crow Batty 8,871]

What's clear is this pathetic mindset against low ranking opposition won't go away easily. Much discussed last season and reappeared right on cue this season twice. Whilst I am sure we can put in a decent effort next week against a very good side with only a slim chance of winning we still have to play GC, Collingwood, Brisbane and North. ATM the odds don't look good for even breaking even with this mob. It really pains that we will continue to hear great things about training, attitude and improvement happening  but with almost certantity the same dross will be served up against strugglers this season.

Edited May 7, 2017 by america de cali

[poita 3,902]

Dumb footballers playing dumb football = yesterday's performance. Chains of handballs to teammates in ever worsening positions, allowing Hawthorn to take uncontested marks in dangerous positions, 4 up and no one down, and so on.

Credit to the team for fighting back in the third quarter after a truly woeful first half, but we never looked like winning that game. You can't keep burning all your energy in one quarter, and having nothing left in the tank at the end. 

I don't expect to win every week, but we have had five games in the balance at 3/4 time so far this year, and have lost four of them. That will be the difference between finishing in the top 8 and the bottom 6. We should clearly be at least 5-2.

We got absolutely nothing from our bottom 6-8 players on the day: Kennedy-Harris, Hannan, Petracca, Salem, Wagner, Bugg, Vince. Some of those had plenty of touches, but did nothing of value with them. Kennedy-Harris, Bugg and Wagner should be back to Casey next week. Petracca looks injured to me - why risk such a valuable player when he is not right?

I love Clayton Oliver, but why won't he kick the ball? He undoes so much good work by not pumping the ball forward occasionally. Vince had the same disease yesterday. He shouldn't be playing if his foot is bothering him.

Wagner proved yet again that he is not a defender. His positioning and his reading of the play is just laughable. He might be okay on a wing, but he is a liability in defence.

Viney was back to his best, but he had very little support. It is hard to recall too many valuable touches from the likes of Jones, Hibberd, Vince and Lewis.

And finally, I find it very hard to have respect for Simon Goodwin whilst he can't / won't fix this issue of four players flying against each other leaving opponents free on the ground. You get taught one up, one down in under 12s. Why is it so hard for professional footballers to work out? Jetta, Hunt & Wagner are the worst. It's pretty simple - if you are under 6 foot tall, and there are four talls in a contest, stay the **** down. 

 

[Mondê 525]

We are so young, I know people are sick of hearing it but honestly our best players this year haven't even played 50 games yet. This takes time, we will become more consistent soon. Disappointing nonetheless

[Stingray 157]

21 minutes ago, america de cali said:

What's clear is this pathetic mindset against low ranking opposition won't go away easily. Much discussed last season and reappeared right on cue this season twice. Whilst I am sure we can put in a decent effort next week against a very good side with only a slim chance of winning we still have to play GC, Collingwood, Brisbane and North. ATM the odds don't look good for even breaking even with this mob. It really pains that we will continue to hear great things about training, attitude and improvement happening  but with almost certantity the same dross will be served up against strugglers this season.

Totally agree. We lost. We should have won. Not good enough. Nuff said.

[Webber 10,476]

Most of the assessments on here are for once consistent and obvious. Too many contestants in the air, no-one at ground level. JKH trial has run its course at this stage, and a tendency to overuse handball as a way to move around intense opposition pressure is failing because it has a greater margin for error. Because these are such glaring flaws, I'm inclined to think they should be easy to fix. Wishful thinking maybe. The other obvious, actually glaring reality, is the team's inability to react appropriately to expectation. I will be tipping against them all year when they go into a game as favourites now, because it's one of the most predictable things about this unpredictable AFL year. Is this lack of maturity, or lack of mental preparation on the part of coaches as well as players? When we put together a 4 quarter game, no opposition team will come near us, of that I'm equally convinced, but that possibility looks a looooong way off at the moment. Otherwise, Jarryd Roughead got a magic carpet ride from the umps yesterday, it was horribly apparent, and it was close to being a game killer. Influence on umpire psychology and emotion is still a major flaw in the game. 

[The heart beats true 18,128]

After a nights sleep (slept well, thanks for asking) I have concluded that yesterday's loss belongs to the leadership group.

You can not hold players with 20 games experience responsible (Hunt, Oliver, Track). Aside from Viney, who was outstanding and played a real captains game (and is only just turned 23), the older more experienced players did little to lead when needed in the first quarter.

Goodwin needs to pull Vince, Jones, and Lewis aside and ask them to stand up. Jones in particular turned over the ball 3 times in the first quarter under relatively little pressure.

I hope he gives them an all mighty spray because so far this year I've been underwhelmed by their on field leadership - and if you look at our stats the only thing we've lacked (aside from a ruckman) is composure and game sense. With that we should have a minimum 2 more wins on the board.

[Little Richard 6,265]

23 minutes ago, Mondê said:

We are so young, I know people are sick of hearing it but honestly our best players this year haven't even played 50 games yet. This takes time, we will become more consistent soon. Disappointing nonetheless

That's what a lot of it comes down to unfortunately. The talent is there, but they just need experience and growth as a team.

It'll happen but it's so frustrating.

[Age 485]

11 minutes ago, Webber said:

Most of the assessments on here are for once consistent and obvious. Too many contestants in the air, no-one at ground level. JKH trial has run its course at this stage, and a tendency to overuse handball as a way to move around intense opposition pressure is failing because it has a greater margin for error. Because these are such glaring flaws, I'm inclined to think they should be easy to fix. Wishful thinking maybe. The other obvious, actually glaring reality, is the team's inability to react appropriately to expectation. I will be tipping against them all year when they go into a game as favourites now, because it's one of the most predictable things about this unpredictable AFL year. Is this lack of maturity, or lack of mental preparation on the part of coaches as well as players? When we put together a 4 quarter game, no opposition team will come near us, of that I'm equally convinced, but that possibility looks a looooong way off at the moment. Otherwise, Jarryd Roughead got a magic carpet ride from the umps yesterday, it was horribly apparent, and it was close to being a game killer. Influence on umpire psychology and emotion is still a major flaw in the game. 

I've been doing this for the whole time I have barracked for Melbourne - been going on as long as I can remember!!

[Redleg 40,994]

10 hours ago, Scoop Junior said:

The most annoying thing is how predictable it all is.

Come out half-hearted against an out-of-form side, allow them early goals to get their confidence and belief going and find ourselves well behind early in the game. Then turn it on when hope seems gone, come roaring back into the match but fail to finish the job and lose a nailbiter.

I reckon I've seen this movie 20 times. I hated it the first time and I hated it today. We keep coming back for more but the script doesn't change.

Over and over and over again we play teams near the bottom who are down on confidence and we fail to come out switched on from the outset. I would love to be surprised for once and to see us land some big blows early against these sides but it doesn't happen. We lost to drug-banned Essendon last year but learned nothing and we continue to fail to show up when expected to win.

There are some real attitude problems that we just cannot, at the moment, get over. We've improved our list, our talent, our skill (not there yet but better), our hardness, etc. But we really are miles off it mentally. I said the same thing after the Freo game when we failed to get men back in the last few minutes. Great teams find a way to win, we simply find ways to lose. We are just so good at it. If the aim in football was to extract defeat from winnable positions we'd be the reigning triple Premiers.

And it's no surprise our best quarter was the third. The pressure was off as there was no expectation to win being 6 goals down. Then once again as soon as we drew level in the last and the expectation was we would run over them, we fail to go on with it.

I'm sick of the youth excuse. We had enough senior players out there today to lead the way. They've had these lessons before and they've learned nothing.

I'm quite happy with our physical development so far this year but mentally we are really falling well short of the mark. We need to find some answers.

Seems Garry Lyon agrees with you and used the same phrase, failing to play to expectation. 

Says we only play well when the expectation goes in games whenever that is. 

[Lucifers Hero 40,005]

I thought Jesse had a good game given recent events.  He competed well.  Took some good marks.  He was double tagged and had a loose defender in front preventing him leading.  And he still kicked 3.3. on a day when we couldn't get the ball very far into the f50.   

Importantly, he took poor umpiring decisions in his stride and had some good second efforts.

Not bad given he had a stop/start to the year, playing only 3 games before yesterday so his match fitness would have been down.  Naturally, he seemed subdued but I thought it was terrific how he fronted up yesterday and kept his head up regardless of how things went on the field. 

I am very confident that in time we will see him achieve the potential he showed in 2015.  I wouldn't be surprised if at some stage this year he wins a game off his own boot.

[John Crow Batty 8,871]

9 minutes ago, Age said:

I've been doing this for the whole time I have barracked for Melbourne - been going on as long as I can remember!!

The most infamous example was the 1990 Semi Final against a lacklustre WC. We were favourites for the flag that finals series and red hot to beat WC. Our form prior to this game was stellar. They jumped us at Waverley in the first quarter and we could never catch up. WC bombed out in the prelim allowing the filth to take an unlikely flag against the bummers.

Edited May 7, 2017 by america de cali

[jumbo returns 6,741]

11 hours ago, picket fence said:

 

6 Hawthorns skills ( for an ageing team) today put us to shame. 

This ^^

Their foot skills and spread killed us...initially

Too late to turnaround a 35 point deficit against such experience

[Lucifers Hero 40,005]

I have mentioned Tim O'Brien in several posts but I think his game is worth more discussion as he really hurt us - in part because our defenders didn't pay him enough respect and he was able to dominate the forward line:  He took 10 marks, had 5 hitouts and kicked 2 goals.

He is 23yo and played only 20 games and I wondered where he has been hiding.  The HFC website says:  " After four games in 2014, the key forward couldn’t back it up with a senior berth in 2015, but was solid up forward all year for Box Hill as he continues to serve the time-honoured Hawthorn apprenticeship".

He is the quintessential ruck/forward a perfect complement to Roughy.  O'Brien is the type of player we desperately need.  We could have won every game if we had such a player (no I don't think Watts is that player - he is needed elsewhere).

Anyway, he made me think of Weideman and how quick some posters have been to judge him.  The disadvantage Weideman has vs O'Brien is being a high draft pick so people expect him to perform earlier rather than later.  O'Brien shows the benefit of proper development...hope our coaches are paying attention and don't rush Weideman back.

My hope is Goodwin makes Weideman into a player who can be our ruck/forward in a few years.  

Edited May 7, 2017 by Lucifer's Hero

[John Crow Batty 8,871]

14 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

This ^^

Their foot skills and spread killed us...initially

Too late to turnaround a 35 point deficit against such experience

Hawthorn are on the decline. Their skills have been woeful this season. Their experienced players are slow. When spuds like Langford and O'Brien star all day is an indictment on us. They still know how to take mug sides like us that think the game is won before the first bounce though.

Edited May 7, 2017 by america de cali

[Bates Mate 4,501]

16 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I thought Jesse had a good game given recent events.  He competed well.  Took some good marks.  He was double tagged and had a loose defender in front preventing him leading.  And he still kicked 3.3. on a day when we couldn't get the ball very far into the f50.   

Importantly, he took poor umpiring decisions in his stride and had some good second efforts.

Not bad given he had a stop/start to the year, playing only 3 games before yesterday so his match fitness would have been down.  Naturally, he seemed subdued but I thought it was terrific how he fronted up yesterday and kept his head up regardless of how things went on the field. 

I am very confident that in time we will see him achieve the potential he showed in 2015.  I wouldn't be surprised if at some stage this year he wins a game off his own boot.

Hogan was OK and gets a pass given the circumstances. But too many times he called for a teammate to kick long towards him while  goal and he did not lead up.

or forward set up is dysfunctional and entries even worse how many times do we get a mark/kick 80 meters out and player with ball hesitates allowing even more opposition players to flood back, then we bomb it in or kick sideways/backwards and end up turning it over . I get that most of the time the hesitation comes from no standout option but long kick to 1 vs 2 is better to what ends up being 1 v 4.  Our forwards need to lead and learn what blocking is all about.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

13 hours ago, --coach-- said:

After the game the Melbourne coach declared the players brought a questionable attitude to the game against Hawthorn on Sunday. AFL website: http://m.afl.com.au/news/2017-05-07/dees-attitude-was-questionable-goodwin

My question is, when will we stop bringing a questionable attitude to games???

I was thinking about this on Saturday, knowing that in the past this is the kind of game we would turn up to at less than 100% intensity and reflecting on the saints win the night before where they brought pressure and intensity to the game.

In today's footy you must bring that 100% intensity and if you don't you will lose. What does it take to get the players to be "up" for the start of every game every week? It can't be one or two players, it needs to be the entire team otherwise things will break down. 

It's clearly all in the head - do they need sports psychologists working with them to prep them for gametime? Their entire week is geared towards that 2hrs to perform so why can teams (not just us) turn up without the required mindset/intensity? What needs to be done to ensure that by the bounce of the ball they are ready to run through a brick wall? 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,235]

13 hours ago, JV7 said:

Our inconsistentency week to week... Quarter to quarter & 3-4 win/loss record, losing winnable games begs to differ that we aren't a year off it & lack the experience to get the job done

That's just a complete cop out. They've been good enough to win every game so far, the fact they haven't isn't because of youth.

[Demonsone 2,042]

Mental toughness needs to be question as it's obvious the side is turning up & not ready to play @ the intensity needed..  Is it leadership? Is it personnel? Is it experience? Does The 3rd qtr & parts of the 4th dismiss all these? 

Even Goodwin doesn't know why...So what's the answer?

[Lucifers Hero 40,005]

6 minutes ago, Hogan2014 said:

Mental toughness needs to be question as it's obvious the side is turning up & not ready to play @ the intensity needed..  Is it leadership? Is it personnel? Is it experience?

Is it coaching?

Edited May 8, 2017 by Lucifer's Hero

[beelzebub 23,380]

6 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

That's just a complete cop out. They've been good enough to win every game so far, the fact they haven't isn't because of youth.

Actually....they HAVEN'T been good enough to win every game. It's a false extrapolation we fall into.

 

[John Crow Batty 8,871]

2 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Is it coaching?

Coincidence mental toughness and Beveridge arrived at the Bulldogs at the same time? 

[praha 11,240]

17 minutes ago, Bates Mate said:

Hogan was OK and gets a pass given the circumstances. But too many times he called for a teammate to kick long towards him while  goal and he did not lead up.

or forward set up is dysfunctional and entries even worse how many times do we get a mark/kick 80 meters out and player with ball hesitates allowing even more opposition players to flood back, then we bomb it in or kick sideways/backwards and end up turning it over . I get that most of the time the hesitation comes from no standout option but long kick to 1 vs 2 is better to what ends up being 1 v 4.  Our forwards need to lead and learn what blocking is all about.

Hogan's a physical player. He wants the contest and demands it, and would rather win the ball from a set position then lead into space and risk having the ball exposed by loose defenders. Those up the ground simply don't back in their teammates enough, and overuse the ball in the hope of creating space and hitting a clear teammate. They played 30 minutes of amazing football where they back each other in. That third quarter alone should have been enough to set up the match but it wasn't to be. The forward line is not so much the issue. We're kicking big scores. Our two-way running, poor defensive accountability and inability to be damaging with possession is what kills us.

[beelzebub 23,380]

5 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Is it coaching?

Possibly all 3.

When i saw the headline of " Goody questions attitude" .. i thought...careful.. pandoras box !!

[Gorgoroth 12,976]

Problem with our club is we are losers.

Have been pretty much all my life. 

The club accepts it, the players join in when they get to the club. We accept mediocrity like kids accept chocolate.

How a club like ours can continually lose against teams below or around us is oustanding. Absolutely outstanding.

There is no heart, no soul to this club. We are a business with players who have a job. No passion, just a job to keep as long as they can before phase two of their life begins.

[Lord Travis 10,749]

The worst thing about the team at present is the lack of leadership and organisation. I don't see anyone out there barking orders and trying to organise or fire up his teammates. Look at Hodge yesterday. As a player, he's pretty much shot, but he was still barking orders and organising his team. He was also picking fights with Melbourne players and getting his team mates involved. This bonded them and fired them up. We need better leaders who can organise us on-field.

Shout out to Jeffy who continues his good form this year. And Jack Viney who played a great game. And Hogan for his return under challenging circumstances giving us decent output. The rest can go jump in the ice bath for all I care until they are ready to put in the effort, use some common sense and win some matches.