Post Match V Eagles JLT 9

[DemonLad5 1,642]

19 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Going by Goodys press conference i don't think Jetta is in his best 22..

Is this a joke?

Jetta is our most reliable defender 

[Watts Jurrah Dunn? 735]

Our forward line and the half forwards that kick it in there were dysfunctional.  So often the i50 entry was from a player like Harmes, Neal-Bullen or Bugg when you want it with a Watts, Salem or Lewis.  Unless we are on the fast break, we seem to be under instruction just to put it on Gawn's head at the top of the square. We missed Garlett enormously.  

The past few drafts have had to be about about just building a base with solid inside midfielders.  That's now built and we have them coming out of our ears, to the point that they have to try and play a creative half forward role that is just not suited to them (Harmes, Neal-Bullen).  It's time to go out and find some front half magic in future drafts and try and find a Rioli, Wingard, Bruest etc type.

A timely wake up call for Petracca.  There'll be a big difference getting a kick on Dempster or Geary in Round 1 compared to some Carlton spud at Casey.

Tyson was atrocious and can't be picked for Round 1 on that performance.  Half a dozen shocking turnovers and yes he got 20+ possessions, but they were the possessions Brayshaw was getting in previous weeks and he uses it much better.

Oscar McDonald looked like he'd ran from Melbourne to Perth to play the game.  Looked absolutely knackered from the first bounce.  Clearly they see a big future there but for me, when Frost is back, it's Frost every week with his closing speed and power.

Oliver and Hunt - wow.

[demon-4-life 467]

Thought it was a good hit out.  WC are a good side and on their home deck.  Their midfield of SMitchell, Priddis, Shuey, Sheed, Gaff, Masten, Yeo is up there as being one of the best in the league.  Not many midfields boast 2 brownlow medalists.  I expect them to be top 4.  

We had many chances to win this game.  But WC also had many chances to put us to the sword.  My thoughts which more or less resembles most people on here.Turnovers leading to direct shots on goals is what will undo us in majority of our losses this year.  WC's ability to slingshot and do the 45 degree angle kick to open up the ground was exceptional.  Their skills to execute this was of a high standard last night. 

• Oliver is a beauty.  Nuff said. 
• Skills/entries into our fwd half were questionable.  If those hit targets and become shots on goal, we probably would have won.  

 

Think this has been a great pre season for us.  An underdone Doggies first up was good to get the cobwebs out.  A walk in the park against a lower side in Carlton.  A tougher game against a top 4 side (IMO) on their home ground in hot conditions.  Results reflect where we're at as a club.  Personally think we'll get done against Saints Rd 1, but I don't think that's the end of the world.  Reckon we'll give them a run for their money though.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

My take -

 

- Many supporters here think we conceded goals due to the defensive zone we play. Which is not true. If you're playing a zone defence, the entire zone press hard up the field on the offensive. It's a risk vs reward situation and is the way that modern teams are trending. It requires quick play-on and a high level of execution of skill under pressure (which clearly was the reason it came so unstuck last night). There are only two things that will penetrate a zone defence: 1) Sam Mitchell and Shannon Hurn  2) If your team-mate makes a direct turnover. Last night, we turned the ball over far far too often which resulted in coast to coast goals. That's what will happen to a zone defence if you can't execute under pressure. 

 

- Whilst I'm not entirely opposed to this zone defence, I will say a couple of things that I definitely don't like. One is that it means nobody but the (turneroverer) is held accountable for key forwards like Josh Kennedy being able to literally maul us. Honestly, I don't understand why within our defensive zone, Tom McDonald isn't closest to Josh Kennedy as clearly he is the best chance of negating the guy on a turnover. Having a bloke 10 cm shorter try and make defensive spoil against a key forward is an extremely frustrating outcome of breakdown in zone defence. If either of or key defenders were made to be more aware of Kennedy's positioning, perhaps he would have had a little less impact?

 

- Tom McDonald and Oscar McDonald. I called it before the match, but if and when we have games where our efficiency is down and we are butchering it going forward, these two are going to cop it massively when we play taller sides like West Coast. I've said our key defensive stocks are weak and last night proved so. Many of the goals were unstoppable, but these two are incredibly inconsistent in their play. Whether it's decision making, skill execution, killing a ball in a contest, clean ball handling. It's basically a lucky dip in my eyes. A real lack of composure. You guys can point out the nice couple of contested marks that Tom made. But then I'll point out the mistakes he made and we've basically gone nowhere. Compare those two to Hurn, McKenzie and McGovern in regards to what to do when you have the ball or when it's in dispute. Worlds apart. Its our weakest link along with skill execution throughout our side.

 

- Our lack of goals had nothing to do with not having a true small forward. Unless you think kicking on the heads of forwards is the way AFL is played these days.

 

- Positives for me were obviously Oliver. I thought Garland played at a level that makes him at least look like he can play AFL footy. Couple of mistakes, but mostly had options to kick to which he used. Pressure around the ball and tackling again was there/consistent. But that's about it as far as positives go. Way too many players performed well under their best and used it really poorly. Which is worrying. 

 

- Play like that against St Kilda and it'll be 2016 deja vu.

 

Edited March 9, 2017 by stevethemanjordan

[Lucifers Hero 39,966]

8 hours ago, jnrmac said:

This stat is a bit misleading. They only score goals 3 ways: turnovers, stoppages and from kick ins. So t/o's will always be a major scoring issue.

Of course, there will always be goals from turnovers, for both sides. 

I would prefer the opp got a lot more of their goals from their own endeavour: winning the 50/50 ball, contested marks or stoppages, rather than our sloppiness.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Lucifer's Hero

[Wiseblood 24,637]

13 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

 

- Our lack of goals had nothing to do with not having a true small forward. Unless you think kicking on the heads of forwards is the way AFL is played these days.

 

I don't think it was either, however it was apparent that it was something we missed last night.  As soon as the ball hit the deck the Eagles were generally able to run it out quickly.  Petracca and Brayshaw needed a Kent/Garlett there as they are too similar in their play.  Having a zippy player at the feet of our talls will help us jag a few extra goals and add some pressure to the opposition backline.  God knows we can't let St. Kilda waltz it out of their backline with ease in a fortnight's time.

[Maldonboy38 6,404]

Turnovers are a specific thing, and do not include opposition intercept marks, high presure errors,  or strong contested marks from opposition. They are skill and/or decision making errors and our game was filled with them. Not only kicks and handballs but deciding when to switch, when not to give off to first option etc... We only lost by 4 goals and matched the for much of the game but our turnovers were 2015-ish. 

The way WCE defenders ran through our half forward line with multiple free options opening up in their forward line is the biggest concern. The Saints did this to us last year twice and it remains our biggest structural weakness. Do we have the personnel to remedy this? Probably not straight away.

Vince worries me. Love him as a clubman but I question his worth for round 1.

Oliver, Salem, Hunt, Spencer and Brayshaw looked very good.

Viney, Tyson, Weideman, Petracca and Harmes looked poor.

OMac played a game worthy of being dropped. 

But it was a JLT game and we have Hibberd, Jetta, Frost and others to be considered.

We don't need to over-react, but the skill and turnovers are concerning. 

[Skuit 10,031]

Whatevs. What I learned; our clash strip is as horrible live as it is in theory.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Going by Goodys press conference i don't think Jetta is in his best 22..

That makes me more concerned about Goodwin than Jetta.

[Fat Tony 5,252]

My take:

• Oliver is our best young talent. The Gawn/Oliver partnership is already dominant in the centre bounces, but we need to capitalise better on this advantage.
• Tom McDonald has had 3 ordinary games so far this year. He has done this in previous years and played well in round 1, so hopefully he does again.
• Our forward line was too tall and lacked forward pressure. As well as Spencer has played this preseason, I hope we go with just Hogan and Watts as our only talls in our forward line in round 1. Hopefully Garlett and Kent can play VFL next week.
• We lack a bit of speed around the ball. I would prefer to use Vince on the ball and Lewis and Jones off half back.
• Glad we didn't have any injuries.
• Garland played a solid game and probably needs to play against St Kilda given their marking forwards.
• Hogan's goal kicking technique has improved.

 

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

This stat is a bit misleading. They only score goals 3 ways: turnovers, stoppages and from kick ins. So t/o's will always be a major scoring issue.

I confess that I only listened to the apallingly biased commentary on radio but it seemed that many of the turnovers were deep within our forward line. This suggests lack of small forwards and our inability to keep it in there as well as missing targets. We will always have turnovers but we need to be able to shut it down quickly when we do. That seemed to me what was missing. around 72% of their goals started from deep within their defence I believe.

Correct... but feom what i saw once the ball got turned over deep in our forward line the eagles easily beat our press whixh reaulted in a lot of easy egirl goals.

They rebounded superbly against us. 

We just butchered the ball going forward too often. Too many players were not clean.

Now theae aren't season ending issues they can be fixed. My only concern is i think this trend of wasting the ball will be taken in to the season and we will struggle again against those flood defence and rebounding teams.

Dont get me wrong the boys were good enough to break even in the stats and be in the game until the last 5 mins. But skill errors and poor execution cost badly and i expect that trend to continue 

Edited March 9, 2017 by Unleash Hell

[Moonshadow 17,676]

Whilst only preseason, it's clear to me that we have numerous young players that are important going forward but still some way off holding their place. The Weed and Omac are two examples. I still think it's worth playing them in the seniors where possible for development, but it may be that Goodwin gives them a spell at Casey to hone specific aspects of their game. There are others who make me shake my head and hope we have alternative options for selection when the season begins, eg Harmes and ANB. 

I was pleased with much of our game, but frustrated by the turnovers and poor decision making/skill execution at times. WCE at home are a step up from us. Given the number of good players who were down (Gawn, Tracc, Dom, Watts), I am still very positive for the season proper.

Love seeing the improvement of Gus, Salem, Clarry, Spencer.

Please no more injuries before R1

Edited March 9, 2017 by Moonshadow

[faultydet 7,612]

I'm usually a pessimist, but I actually thought we totally dominated very large periods of the game. Our clearance work was finals quality.

 

Now, if we could just stop kicking to the opposition.

[Red and Blue realist 2,051]

Not at all disappointed with the result, if you look, our main mids played significantly less game time than the eagles and what I expect they would in a normal game. So we'll get some natural improvement there. Plus Tyson will be better for the run.

We really missed the forward pressure of Kent and Garlett, not to say ANB did a bad job, I think we need 2 players in that role and not sure if anyone else helped lock the ball in that well forward 50, I don't expect Hoges/Weid/Watts to be doing it to the same level as Jeffy/Kent/ANB/JHK/AVB can do.

Loved Oliver, I've always thought Viney was like a freight train coming through packs, well Oliver's like bullet train hitting them with speed and force. If they every run into each other full force it'll leave a massive dent in whatever oval there on.

[hemingway 7,628]

2 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Thank god someone else sees that. Subi is longer not wider but your point is right. Our pressure was ok but the Eagles were just able to spread so much on the really long ground in any other stadium the would have run our of space. Its the reason they are so dominant at home and so poor away.

Funny how the Hawks who have been the best ball users of the comp for the past 5 years are the ones who can consitantly beat the eagles over there. Dogs in the EF and Adelaide late in 2016 both had really low turnover numbers in their wins over there. 

Ever since the VFL era, grounds have been wider, longer, narrower, shorter etc etc, except there are fewer variations these days. 

However, just like the good old VFL days, successful teams must learn to win on all grounds, in all weather conditions. In the grand old days, the Dees could win on grounds the size of a school playground, in the mud, against teams with different game style and tactics, and despite crook umpiring.  We overcame and made adjustments before the game and on the day.  

I want to forget that these differences result in a difference on the scoreboard. We need to win at the G hard and win interstate.

Looking forward to the days when we can play away from the G and still expect to win. 

[jnrmac 20,106]

2 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Thank god someone else sees that. Subi is longer not wider but your point is right. Our pressure was ok but the Eagles were just able to spread so much on the really long ground in any other stadium the would have run our of space. Its the reason they are so dominant at home and so poor away.

Funny how the Hawks who have been the best ball users of the comp for the past 5 years are the ones who can consitantly beat the eagles over there. Dogs in the EF and Adelaide late in 2016 both had really low turnover numbers in their wins over there. 

 

Would like to see a diagram of grounds superimposed over each other.. I understand Subi has deep pockets as well and is less of an 'oval' shape....

MELBOURNE CRICKET GROUND (MCG)
City: Melbourne
Capacity: 100,021
Ground dimensions: 160 metres x 141 metres

ETIHAD STADIUM
City: Melbourne
Capacity: 53,355
Ground dimensions: 159.5 metres x 128.8 metres

SIMONDS STADIUM
City: Geelong
Capacity: 28,300
Ground dimensions: 170 metres x 115 metres

ADELAIDE OVAL
City: Adelaide
Capacity: 53,000
Ground dimensions: 167.05 x 123.93

Patersons Stadium (formerly Subiaco Oval)
City: Perth
Capacity: 43,500
Ground dimensions: 175.6 metres x 122.4 metre

SYDNEY CRICKET GROUND (SCG)
City: Sydney
Capacity: 43,386
Ground dimensions: 149 metres x 136 metres

ANZ STADIUM
City: Sydney
Capacity: 82,500
Ground dimensions: 160 metres x 118 metres

SPOTLESS STADIUM (Formerly Skoda Stadium)
City: Sydney (Sydney Showground Stadium)
Capacity: 25,000
Ground dimensions: 164 metres x 123 metres

Gabba
City: Brisbane
Capacity: 41,000
Ground dimensions: 156 metres x 138 metres

Metricon Stadium
City: Carrara
Capacity: 25,000
Ground dimensions: 160 metres x 134 metres

Aurora Stadium
City: Launceston (York Park)
Capacity: 21,000
Ground dimensions: 165 metres x 135 metres

Blundstone Arena
City: Hobart (Bellerive Oval)
Capacity: 16,200
Ground dimensions: 175 metres * 133.5 metres

Manuka Oval
City: Canberra
Capacity: 14,000
Ground dimensions: 162.5 metres x 138.4 metres

TIO Stadium
City: Darwin
Capacity: 17,000
Ground dimensions: 175 metres x 135 metres

 

[Go the Biff 3,435]

Loved Oliver

Not happy with defensive pressure in the midfield and especially from our half forward line. Harmes for example jogging while his player puts metres on him and becomes a link up option. Whether you play zone or man on man, your defence is up against it when the ball is launched from the opposition half back line under no pressure.

 

Thought the Eagles gave us a lesson on holding your structures. We had too many in the contest and in tackles while they had blokes free outside ready to receive.

 

Our forward entries are still ordinary as are our forward structures. Too many blokes in the one spot – makes life easy for defenders. Our talls need to get better separation and provide multiple targets. So they don’t fly against each other for the same mark.

 

For all that we stuck with a top 8 side on their own dung hill and a lot can be taken from the game and quickly improved upon. And if anyone was getting ahead of themselves, this might be just the result to get a bit of a reality check & sharpen the focus. That includes our supporters

[hemingway 7,628]

1 hour ago, Fat Tony said:

My take:

• Oliver is our best young talent. The Gawn/Oliver partnership is already dominant in the centre bounces, but we need to capitalise better on this advantage.
• Tom McDonald has had 3 ordinary games so far this year. He has done this in previous years and played well in round 1, so hopefully he does again.
• Our forward line was too tall and lacked forward pressure. As well as Spencer has played this preseason, I hope we go with just Hogan and Watts as our only talls in our forward line in round 1. Hopefully Garlett and Kent can play VFL next week.
• We lack a bit of speed around the ball. I would prefer to use Vince on the ball and Lewis and Jones off half back.
• Glad we didn't have any injuries.
• Garland played a solid game and probably needs to play against St Kilda given their marking forwards.
• Hogan's goal kicking technique has improved.

 

Vince is an interesting one. The fact is that this year we need him to get a hell of a lot more possessions in the midfield and forward zone within kicking distance of goal.  

[Jaded No More 68,966]

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Going by Goodys press conference i don't think Jetta is in his best 22..

I just don't get that. Jetta was our best and most consistent defender last year. Why is he on the outer now? 

I get that we have some fancy foot users in the half back line now, but somebody down there actually needs to know how to defend, and Jetta is a top defender! Rarely gets beaten one on one, even against bigger opponents. 

This one is a mystery to me and one I am not happy about!

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, Jaded said:

I just don't get that. Jetta was our best and most consistent defender last year. Why is he on the outer now? 

I get that we have some fancy foot users in the half back line now, but somebody down there actually needs to know how to defend, and Jetta is a top defender! Rarely gets beaten one on one, even against bigger opponents. 

This one is a mystery to me and one I am not happy about!

We need to wait and see on this one.  Jetta has just returned to full fitness from a quad injury and we'll know in the coming weeks where he stands.

I haven't seen the press conference so I can't comment on that, but I highly doubt he's totally fallen out of favour over a pre-season.  It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

9 minutes ago, hemingway said:

Ever since the VFL era, grounds have been wider, longer, narrower, shorter etc etc, except there are fewer variations these days. 

However, just like the good old VFL days, successful teams must learn to win on all grounds, in all weather conditions. In the grand old days, the Dees could win on grounds the size of a school playground, in the mud, against teams with different game style and tactics, and despite crook umpiring.  We overcame and made adjustments before the game and on the day.  

I want to forget that these differences result in a difference on the scoreboard. We need to win at the G hard and win interstate.

Looking forward to the days when we can play away from the G and still expect to win. 

Of course they do.  I don't think that's the issue, though.  It was our turnovers that allowed them the free space to cut us up on the rebound and we had no answer for it.  Cut out the high turnover rate and you cut their scoring rate as well, regardless of the ground we play on.

[Bitter but optimistic 22,242]

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Yep, apparently 12 of their 14 goals were from our turnovers.

Climate and conditions aside as both teams played them, the culprits:  skill errors and poor decisions. 

Lots of work to do on the former, tough to fix the latter.

Yes Luce, turnovers have killed us for years. I was hoping that things have changed but last night's effort did not inspire confidence.

Still, as they say, " one swallow ..... etc" .

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

So this started as a comment on 2 or 3 players and ended up a comment on every one... its kinda long so feel free to just keep scroling

Hogan
I felt he struggled playing in such a tall forwardline. Spencer forced all 3 of Weid Hoges and Watts to try play CHF at the same time. But hogan still slotted 2 and should have kicked a 3rd. Shaping up well for the year.
Jones
Not his best outing, some horrible errors took an ok game and made it a poor game. But he is captain for a reason he will bounce back.
Salam
I would have liked him to get the ball a little more but he was slick every time he got it. I pray he gets the run at it he deserves. he will never be labeled our best but I still think he could be our most valuable midfielder.
Watts
Great start but a little rust showed. For a first hitout he did enough to show why he is in our best. Some good defencive efforts although he struggled to have a large influence on the game. Will be better for the run. Hopefully they play him at Casey next week just to give him more touch. 
CP5
Bit of the law of averages at work for CP5 had a game out of the box against the blues then played like a kid again last night. Nothing to panic about he is still young and this was going to happen but wasnt among our best. Whats good about Tracc is he will be fired up to be better round one.
Lewis
Racked up the numbers and played a role without staring. If he plays like that week in week out we will be happy enough but nothing to write home about
Viney
Strange game from Vines. Started like he was lost. But worked himself into the game in the second half. Not a good game but the attitude of a captain to find a way to impact late showed, slotted the goal he needed to. 
Trenners
Was clearly never part of the game plan yesterday. Will play in casey intraclub. He was an emergancy clearly i dont understand why its been made such a big deal
Brayshaw
Only 10 disposals was a little dissapointing but he was good when he had it (aside from 1 kick into the man on the mark). His effort to beat 2 from out of possition for the Spencil running goal was first class.
Gawn
Dominated in the ruck but didnt impact around the ground. I still think he is better off without spencer playing. Max in the forwardline is great but we miss him when he isnt helping around the ground. I suspect they were trying to give him the run but aslo protect him for round 1
Tyson
About as rusty as they come. But walked in and picked up a lazy 24 touches in his first outing. Said in a post game interview he will play at casey next week so that will be good for him to get some touch before round 1.
Oliver
WOW. Turning heads early. He was our best on the night. Just makes good decisions. Using his feet more which is great. Almost walks around the ground because he just knows where to go.
Stretch
Needs to find the ball a little more. But he was ok. Just goes about it quietly without doing all that much wrong. Still our best wingman, Hope we can get him a partner.
Melksham
Best of the 3 JLT games for him. Confirmed himself for round one. Hope he will lift a little more over the year but he was good. Used the ball well at times out of the backline. I see what Goody wanted him for. But I'm not 100% sold yet.
Garland
Showed why he is a backup. He's going to compete every time he is out there but he will get beaten too often to be in the best team. Struggled with their height.
Vince
Didnt really have an influence. He is racking up clangers faster than anyone else. I wish they would just play him in the midfield where he at his best. 
TMac
Shanked 1 kick about 10seconds into the game then after that he was good. Some great intercept marks. Showed why he is one of the better Key backs going around. Like most defenders he was caught out running forward due to our shocking turnovers but when they play attacking we are gonna have to wear it a few times. 
Wied
Keeps showing a couple of signs a game jumped at the contest a few times but just cant seem to hang on to them. Just cant influence the game for any amount of time. Missed a goal he should have kicked. I still think they will pick him for round 1, but you could make a case either way.
OMac
My God this guy cops it before doing all that much wrong. He was copping abuse from the first bounce before he even went near the ball. FWIW It may intrest some to know he only had 2 clangers (not the 45 you would have thought he had reading that match thread) and toped the charts with 1%ers. He got caught out on the rebound like everyone else in the defence did.  Was it a good game for him? No, not really but I feel that people just want to stick the boot in when he plays poorly more than others. No doubt that handball was embarassing but there were a few who were much worse than him.
Hunt
Back to his explosive best. He loved the wide open spaces. Racked up the metres gained. A few shocking kicks on the end of his runs but he broke the lines and we need him to keep doing it. 
ANB
I still hate having him as a forward. However I admit he might have earnt himself a spot as a defencive forward come round 1. Assuming Kent wont play. If he brings the pressure against the saints rebounders he could have a big influence in that game.
Bugg
Racks up touches but doesnt seem to do anything either exciting or horrible with them. I dont think he is in the best team but he is probably the ultimate 23rd man. Can play anywhere we need and doesnt really do anything horribly wrong.
Spencil
3 goals to the big bloke kinda hid the problems he caused. I thought our tall forwards got in each others way a bit. He is there to be a good forward but only 2 marks he just didnt do enough. I think a 3 talls forwardline is better for us. allows Hogan and Watts to go up the ground with Weid deep. 
Harmes
Couldnt get his hands on the footy and then was pretty ordinary when he had it. I dont think he has earnt a spot in round one. I do expect he will go to the VFL and earn his chance at some point throughout the year.
Overall:
Well any game where you give up 22 scoring shots and 82 points on turnovers you are going to struggle. It was the difference but there were a couple of other observations: Our pressure was there at times but we got drawn a long way forward with the long ground and once they got over the top we were exposed. Some work on our spacing leading up to Subi games should help us in the future bit when we create a habit playing with our MCG spacing we will occasionally break down on the funky shaped grounds.  As I aluded to in a couple of the player comments our forwardline stucture struggled being so top heavy. If we were clunking big marks we would have been fine but the fact is we were droping marks alowing it to come straight out then our wall would forced to send it straight back in. Rince, repeat until the Eagles drew too many of us forward and broke through the wall and we got slaughted on the rebound. 
So what happens next?
We desperatly need Garlett and Kent to be ready for round 1 but i doubt the latter will be. Goodys presser makes me think Smith is a good chance to come back in as the 3rd tall defender. His athleticism will help us if not him I'd play Frost for garland but given he hasnt played yet its probably unlikely. Hopefully Hibbard plays because he brings a big improvement on our ball use out of defencive 50.  
My changes for round 1 assuming they are fit:
24 players down to 22 soOut: Spencer, Trengrove 
In: Hibbard for Harmes. - For ball use off half back
In: Garlett for ANB - Simple: Garlett is a genuine small forward, the ANB is not.
In: Smith for Garland - Brings the same effort with more athleticism should be better against the talls. 
Bugg probably goes if Kent is fit.

Edited March 10, 2017 by ArtificialWisdom
couple of word changes here and there.

[Return to Glory 8,443]

Oscar McDonald played like Mitch Marsh on a turning deck.

[picket fence 17,179]

7 minutes ago, Return to Glory said:

Oscar McDonald played like Mitch Marsh on a turning deck.

LOL but true, just is not up to it and I'll say it will cost us games!