Call for calm

[stuie 7,374]

I'm not sure where fr_ap has been spending his time to see the need for this post, but I've not seen anywhere near the reaction that there was after the Essendon game. No one is panicking, no one is baying for blood, the worst I've seen is people question a few things and being a bit disappointed, hardly any need to "calm down".

But I appreciate the long winded apologetic post.

Maybe fr_ap needs to understand that with increased performances comes increased expectations.

 

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

15 minutes ago, stuie said:

I'm not sure where fr_ap has been spending his time to see the need for this post, but I've not seen anywhere near the reaction that there was after the Essendon game. No one is panicking, no one is baying for blood, the worst I've seen is people question a few things and being a bit disappointed, hardly any need to "calm down".

But I appreciate the long winded apologetic post.

Maybe fr_ap needs to understand that with increased performances comes increased expectations.

 

Interesting. I reckon it's the whole "that effort was unacceptable" thing. I reckon the effort was there. Or relatively close. The essendon game it wasn't, saints game was a long way off that.

[fr_ap 2,488]

40 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

The OP says we have had 15 years of Pain and Suffering. 

It's 52 years now... And efforts like that by the entire club should not be expected or tolerated. 

If you call the entire period since we last won a flag as pain and suffering....I suggest you stop following sport and stay confined to your home where you can control the outcome of everything. If a flag is the only thing that would be acceptable and cure the pain, I honestly feel for you as it must be hard to enjoy even the smallest improvement by that yardstick. As I said, many good teams never win flags - doesn't mean we weren't ever a good team in that time period.

[Return to Glory 8,441]

27 minutes ago, rpfc said:

JnrMac - Plan B is a misnomer.

The only thing a coach can change from one week to the next are tactics around the edges - gameplans don't change within seasons.

The only thing that changes week to week is our ability to execute the gameplan.

Not sure that's true rpfc. Fremantle?

[Forest Demon 4,681]

I must admit, I am unusually calm after yesterday. The Saints are a fast hard running team, and that is what we struggle with the most, so I was hardly surprised.

The most disappointing thing was just the ease we let them do their thing. Our structure was exposed. But we are a young team and there will be plenty of lessons to learn from that one.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

14 minutes ago, fr_ap said:

If you call the entire period since we last won a flag as pain and suffering....I suggest you stop following sport and stay confined to your home where you can control the outcome of everything. If a flag is the only thing that would be acceptable and cure the pain, I honestly feel for you as it must be hard to enjoy even the smallest improvement by that yardstick. As I said, many good teams never win flags - doesn't mean we weren't ever a good team in that time period.

Spare me your new age drivel

if coming second gives you a stiffy then it is you i feel sorry for

i was 1 year old in 1964 so yes i want to see some cups

The Aints kicked 20 goals on us yesterday 7 in a row at one stage. 

Not acceptable. 

Toughen Up Sunshine

[Wells 11 5,406]

1 hour ago, mauriesy said:

 

We stopped it to some extent in the last quarter by not pushing up as far, and playing a loose man in defence, something we should have done in the 2nd quarter to (at least temporarily) stop the rot. Sometimes zoning just doesn't work.

Fully agree. I know its been said a few times already but why did it take so long to adjust?  I was at the game and could see, even in the first quarter, we were a big chance  to get over run. Ive felt this  a few times this year. I tend to be more of a ball watcher and less of an anaylst at the footy, so if its obvious to me its pretty damn obvious.  It just does seem the coaching group are very slow to respond on game day.

[fr_ap 2,488]

36 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

2 hours ago, fr_ap said:

Don't post here a lot - long time reader.

Reading some of the reactions to the game yesterday both on here and in particular the club's Facebook feed, I feel compelled to post as I'm just so sick of this club's supporters. And yes, I've been through it all so don't say I haven't done the hard time.

Today was an entirely predictable result and the sky is not falling in.

• We came off a 4.5 day break and errors were made at the selection table for not refreshing the squad. Young teams struggle with short turnarounds. It was clear to all watching that from mid-way through the first quarter after the adrenaline had worn off that we were not covering the ground either in offence or defence. Lots of hands on hips/heads at the breaks.

Really? We came off a 6 day break. The same as the Aints.

• Our new game style is high risk, high reward, and extremely taxing. We played a team that had the speed to exploit this on their fast home track. Our short turnaround resulted in us looking sluggish and disinterested (I don't think this was actually the case and the effort was there).

So is the Aints game plan. Highly taxing. They just did it better than us.

• Our fortunes rise and fall with Max Gawn and he has often struggled against Hickey in the past. Mobile, tall tap ruckmen are his weakness, and Hickey is very much in this mould. Max is far more effective against the brutes/undersized rucks like Maric and Grundy (coincidentally when he starred). He's played 40 games and if he continues with his rate of improvement, it wont be long before he has no weaknesses at all.

Its actually ruckmen who infringe by jumping into Max before he leves the ground that is the problem. And the their man up while Max is knocked off the ball

• Our team is extremely young and one of the youngest in the league. Our half back line relied on two players who have played less than 5 games and they look to a 30-gamer (Salem) for leadership.

Bullshoit excuse. Take out two players from the Aints and they are the same.

• We played 3 players with less than 5 games each which is a lot to carry when our 'experienced' players are 50 gamers. Petracca was overawed - hard for a first gamer to play in a team that was evidently tired.

Gresham has played 3 games, Acres 14, Minchington 14, Membrey 14 - Its another rubbish excuse, 

• To those who say that we should be able to play the same way against any team - an extremely simplistic view that fails to consider the variation of players/teams across the league. 

So why try? Reiwoldt, Steven, Newnes and Montagna kill us every time. How about a game plan that can be adapted to different teams? How about a plan B when plan A isn't working?

• The saints only really scored on the counter/over the back - it isn't as if we were soundly beaten in every single area of the ground. We had one key deficiency they exploited, but we still kicked 100 odd points with about 10 passengers. This is progress and a simple fix.

I call bullshoite to a simple fix. If it was simple why dodn't they do it during the game? The coaching box had no idea what to do.

• The reactions by our supporter base are a significant part of the problem with this club

People like you that don't demand better performances are part of the problem. We have been fed utter rubbish for a decade, The club are lucky we are still here. Don't you dare blame us.

 

Yes I'll admit I'm not sure where I got 4.5 from - It was a 5 day break (Mon to Fri, game day does not count). I don't care how long a break the Saints had - we looked tired because we had a shorter break than we have had so far this year. We also went hell for leather in the NAB Challenge, starting largely the same team we are fielding now. I've no idea how much the Saints have rotated their squad through pre-season and rounds 1-6 - I can only speak to what we have done and the game showed we were ragged.

Not sure their game plan is highly taxing - they waited for us to press and then quickly countered around the wings and over the back as soon as they got the ball. To be honest, we were the ones who actually forced the play style - they just countered it very well.

Re. The Saints being just as young - you are proving my point. We are up and down, they are up and down. They were widely criticised for last week, we were absolutely heaped with praise. I'm telling you to look beyond the week to week performances and look for the game style and the traits of our young players. Reserve the swaying with the wind day-by-day or week-by-week approach for the media.

Gresham, Acres, Minch and Membrey are all mids or forwards who benefited from the counter-attack, Membrey in particular who profited from having 3 goals fall in his lap off the contest.  Far harder task is being put to Hunt and Wagner who have to remain accountable but also drive the play and take risks from half back. We have had our young mids put in games like Acres' before - again it changes from week to week and Blake will have many more bad games before he does this consistently.

Agree re. Plan B and the coaching box, but clearly the coaches are backing themselves in with this game style. The coaching box are trying to show the players that the style can work at all times and we have shown this with some comebacks so far this year. It just didn't work yesterday but its no use throwing it out completely. Poor individual performances from our KPDs in particular did not help and the coaches hands are always tied to the performances of the players on the park.

I demand better performances and criticise when the club and players deserve it, which has been frequently in recent years, and yesterday was not one of those days. I was absolutely scathing after the Essendon game because it was clearly an effort issue.

I said we as a supporter base are part of the problem. I didn't say we are the cause. But when we kick up a fuss about bad performances because we pay our $150 membership a year, the club and the media listens. Heads roll. Confidence falls. Why do you think we look like we are turning a corner now? It's because we've had Roos to take the flak from people like you without forcing the club to make a change. This has allowed us 3 years of stability, and hopefully we have 3 more at least with Goody.

I greatly admire how Brisbane are sticking with Leppa through some pretty rough years. The Melbourne of the last 15 years would have been through 2 coaches by now and decimated the confidence of every bright player on that list. They may see success sooner than we do on the back of this stability. We will not see success until we have more experience on the list and every time you change the coach or cut a player, you are slowing that process down. Change for change's sake is not helpful.

Your entire 'us vs them' attitude between the supporters and the club is appalling. We've had a crap decade, but the people who did that are gone. You aren't entitled to great performances purely because you think you're a trooper for showing up, or for sticking fat through the years. So get on board, back them in and act like a real supporter.

 

And Stuie - to be fair to the DL folk, the biggest negative reaction has been on Facebook (the Club's postings comments). You can't be heard on that platform though so posting here was the only option and hopefully it gets through to some.

 

[rpfc 28,441]

49 minutes ago, Return to Glory said:

Not sure that's true rpfc. Fremantle?

Well, how about this - gameplans don't easily change during seasons.

If you are working on two or more different 'gameplans' then you will be left with 2 or more undeveloped ways of playing footy.

[McQueen 17,864]

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

JnrMac - Plan B is a misnomer.

The only thing a coach can change from one week to the next are tactics around the edges - gameplans don't change within seasons.

The only thing that changes week to week is our ability to execute the gameplan.

And game day tactics is where Roos an Co continue to fall short.

Sure, we executed poorly yesterday and the game plan 

/style fell apart, but at the same time, Richardson and Co picked our game plan apart and capitalised.

Were's plan B from a tactical POV? Or, should we rely on the repetition of the game plan to further embed what we want to do?

[Biffen 12,943]

Lost in the coach box and the backline.

Punting a hard tag on Reiwoldt should be easy for Tom Mac but they let him shirk it.

Its not the end of the world but it's another glowing error as a match day coach for Mr Calm.

No heads will roll, no careers will end but we will not see any progress until these simple defensive tactics are utilised.

The loose man back or flood the backline?

No ,we just "zone off" like zombies and then point around between goals.

[Pipefitter 2,159]

The Comp is very even this year. Saints were just better than us on the day. Move on to next week.

[dpositive 1,665]

Not so simple to move on

and also agree with both JnrMac and Fr_ap to some extent

We are a young side and so performance will not be consistent. The new boys didnt play with the same ugency Hunt and Wagner particularly. Viney couldnt sustain his intensity Trac was just too slow but standard for a first game needs longer

Watts Frost and Pedo seemed just a tad flat after a good start and just couldnt sustain the effort 

Lumumba kept running into trouble Tmac kept just kept running anywhere. Too many times too many went up with only saints down Roo just kept manning himself into zones where he could get a mismatch and he showed Membrey and Bruce how to do that Dunn just didnt seem to know what was going on and may have been better to just sit at the back of the pack and clean upthe loos e saint player.

Why didnt coaches have plan be Man up It aint that hard

Why did we stick with hunt and wagner who were both terrific last week, give them the rest and bring in fresh Trengove who knows the pace of seniors and Stretch same.

Grimes and Garland are not the future but they are part of the squad that should be used week about to rest players who are still too young to sustain intensity week after week.

Gawn has been great for a few weeks and played well yesterday but he also cannot yet sustain the intense pressure week after week. The coaches need to use the full squad to get experience into the youngsters while playing the harder bodies when required. Ive said it before and Ill continue to say it its the coaches job to get the best performance thaey didnt do it yesterday and yes they are responsible coz if someone isnt performing they need to tell them what to do. It was obvious at half time but nothing changed.Run until you break coz you wont be playing next week on the performance so far.could have been the message. fumbling and over running the ball in close needed some attention get in front slow down take possession and take the free if tackled badly.I understand there appears to be no in the back or throwing the ball but the umps still seem to give the benefit to the player in front and allow too much at times for effort.

But will see what next week brings hopefully the team can be reinvigorated by the coaches sllecting the best group for the opposition

 

[What 18,810]

The sky aint falling.

Was another bump in the road for a very inexperienced team.

A reminder we have gotten closer to beating the Kangaroos than anyone, we beat GWS and brushed aside the Pies and Tigers.

We will beat Gold Coast.

[Wells 11 5,406]

1 hour ago, fr_ap said:

 

Agree re. Plan B and the coaching box, but clearly the coaches are backing themselves in with this game style. The coaching box are trying to show the players that the style can work at all times and we have shown this with some comebacks so far this year. It just didn't work yesterday but its no use throwing it out completely. Poor individual performances from our KPDs in particular did not help and the coaches hands are always tied to the performances of the players on the park.

 

 

 

I agree with most of what youve said....and enjoyed your posts. But I do question this bit. Having a plan b and alternatives to work with when you get figured out isnt " throwng it out completely" just responding ot the facts on the ground. We're going to be easy to play against if we stay with ONE plan regardless. That kind of thinking is what got Neeld so far. 

[P-man 13,366]

OP - this week's reaction has been tiddlywinks compared to some of those previous. You should've been here after the Bombers game. Then you would've seen a show. 

I haven't seen a lot of panic. More a lot of questions being asked on selection, tactics, fitness etc. Which is perfectly understandable.

[dieter 3,325]

4 hours ago, Diamond said:

No they didn't. The saints out scored Melbourne in the second and third quarters (and the Dees only outscored the saints by three points in the last). 

Overall....St Kilda 12.13, Melbourne 12.4 for other 3 quarters. So you're right!

[Satyriconhome 10,878]

2 hours ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Spare me your new age drivel

if coming second gives you a stiffy then it is you i feel sorry for

i was 1 year old in 1964 so yes i want to see some cups

The Aints kicked 20 goals on us yesterday 7 in a row at one stage. 

Not acceptable. 

Toughen Up Sunshine

So how is the hairshirt today SWYL, nice and itchy I hope, only 1 in 64 gee the way you behave I thought you were good friends with Methusela, we just lacked effort yesterday, with us being 'young' in games experience I am expecting that every few games, we will still get a few good wins this season

[bing181 9,240]

4 hours ago, Webber said:

Nice work fr_ap, but the short turnaround was the same for both teams, bar a few hours. We looked absolutely cooked out there, and the Saints were the complete opposite. Selection would have gone a long way to remedying this, something Roos acknowledged they got wrong

That's not what he acknowledged at all, and no-one at the club has brought it up as a defence. What Roos suggested is that they need to take into consideration selecting players for specific settings, in this case, the particularities of the ground at Etihad.

It's interesting to read the quotes from, I think it was Billings, that they were "ready" for Melbourne. They knew that coming off 2 wins, our players would be feeling pretty good about themselves, and perhaps not quite as invested as they could have been - especially if they were hit hard. Which is exactly what happened.

We lost this game for the same reason we lost the North one, and to some extent the Essendon one. Inexperience. It takes time to learn how to consistently bring hardness and focus to every game.

[Return to Glory 8,441]

2 hours ago, Biffen said:

Lost in the coach box and the backline.

Punting a hard tag on Reiwoldt should be easy for Tom Mac but they let him shirk it.

Its not the end of the world but it's another glowing error as a match day coach for Mr Calm.

No heads will roll, no careers will end but we will not see any progress until these simple defensive tactics are utilised.

The loose man back or flood the backline?

No ,we just "zone off" like zombies and then point around between goals.

It's ok to realise that you're giving too much latitude to a player but to let them get away with it for the whole game is very disappointing.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

2 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

So how is the hairshirt today SWYL, nice and itchy I hope, only 1 in 64 gee the way you behave I thought you were good friends with Methusela, we just lacked effort yesterday, with us being 'young' in games experience I am expecting that every few games, we will still get a few good wins this season

Another Cryptic note from Satyr

"We lacked effort" but that is always brushed off by Satyr

even an inexperienced side can give commitment and effort. 

The Aints forward line had no pressure all day

no excuse for that and nowhere to hide....

[Demon17 5,188]

7 hours ago, fr_ap said:

Don't post here a lot - long time reader.

Reading some of the reactions to the game yesterday both on here and in particular the club's Facebook feed, I feel compelled to post as I'm just so sick of this club's supporters. And yes, I've been through it all so don't say I haven't done the hard time.

Today was an entirely predictable result and the sky is not falling in.

• We came off a 4.5 day break and errors were made at the selection table for not refreshing the squad. Young teams struggle with short turnarounds. It was clear to all watching that from mid-way through the first quarter after the adrenaline had worn off that we were not covering the ground either in offence or defence. Lots of hands on hips/heads at the breaks.
•  
•  
• Our team is extremely young and one of the youngest in the league. Our half back line relied on two players who have played less than 5 games and they look to a 30-gamer (Salem) for leadership.
• We played 3 players with less than 5 games each which is a lot to carry when our 'experienced' players are 50 gamers. Petracca was overawed - hard for a first gamer to play in a team that was evidently tired.
•  
• Until we have 100+ games into Trac, Brayshaw, Kent, Harmes, Viney, Tyson, Gawn, Kennedy, Oliver, ANB, VDB, Hunt, Wags, Frost, Salem etc. - we can expect to see this type of inconsistency. We will continue to have good weeks and bad weeks. The competition is very even and we saw today that a few passengers makes it hard to win. Our experienced players were poor, yes, and this is the most disappointing part. Don't forget that TMac and Lumumba were a big part of our good footy the last two weeks.

 

Good post fr_ap.  From the go  the younger players, including Jack V looked slow and weren't hard chasing even in the 2nd quarter.  We felt they were recovering from last 2 weeks.

Tyson continued to show his class, but Pedersens indecisiveness killed us on some opportunities.

Looking forward to a few sensible ins  fro next week such as Oliver and Brayshaw both back.  Petracca showed he has a football brain and will be better.  Gawn can't do it all every week and yesterday was one of those games.

[deejammin' 2,370]

Long time between posts for me. Been enjoying demonland from the sidelines.

 

I am overall positive about the direction our club is heading and the talent we have on our list. I think if we are able to retain our key talent we should enjoy a very successful period.

However, while I am calm and acknowledge that young teams will be inconsistent, I am extremely frustrated that after 3 years of Roos this team still fails to do the basics well, and by that I mean perform well against teams we should beat. In fact we have turned in our worst possible form on both occasions this season, as we did last season. And worryingly it seems to come as much from the coaches box as the players. 

The quality of teams is always hard to gauge at this stage of our year. But looking back on our opening six rounds I think we have had a draw that should have us 4-2. 3-3 is not bad, and it shows improvement, but 4-2 would've set us up to definitely improve this season with a "softer draw" our first 6 rounds.

Essendon and Saint Kilda are bottom four - six sides . They will finish there and for us to fail to beat both of them is an endictment on this group. 

Collingwood and Richmond have also dropped to bottom 8 sides. They were great wins but expected.

Our performances against North and GWS were great as I believe they are top 6 sides and we were lucky to get a win.

The problem with this group last year and this year is that we turned in our worst in winnable games. I'm happy with the overall direction but beat one or both of the Saints and Essendon and you not only set up our team for a strong tilt at finals but also put both other clubs under extreme pressure which will in turn will help the MFC. You cannot build a period of success without putting away the bottom sides.

This club needs to learn to win as favourites and until we do consistently we cannot claim meaningful improvement.

We should keep calm but it is cause for concern that in games where we were clear favourites against sub-par sides we are 0-2 after performing similarly (Carlton, Essendon, Saintsx2) last year.

Edited May 1, 2016 by deejammin'

[KysaiahMessiah 725]

Agree with most BUT "Petracca was over awed " ??? 16 possessions, 5 tackles and a bullet to Jessie with a resulting goal, Ill take that from a debutant any day of the week.  Sheeesh...

Edited May 1, 2016 by Itsabouttohappen

[deejammin' 2,370]

It's also worth noting we are still yet to beat a team we didn't beat last year. Obviously we must do this to improve and with a few teams below us improving there's still no guarantee we win more games than 2015 with the form we've shown. 

Both chances to change that we've blown, and blown badly.