Post match Discussion "Fire away"

[waynewussell 4,864]

rjay "we played safe, they played to win..."

That sums it up for me.

[dee-luded 2,959]

30 minutes ago, Barney Rubble said:

Roos is a premiership coach, because he had Leo Barry.

Otherwise he would have been another coodabeen

Roosy is a Premiership coach because he consistently led his club to the top 4 on the ladder,  seasons on end.  After taking over the development work formed by Eade.

To this he instilled the values & a brotherhood amongst his players which added the final touches to the culture of winners.

[titan_uranus 24,562]

Having had the benefit of the night to reflect (and drink), I hope my thoughts here a slightly more reasoned than some of those expressed on the previous pages.

Yesterday's result was borne out of three things that have plagued this club for the last 10 years: complacency, lack of leadership and poor game-day coaching.

There is a good reason we haven't won back-to-back games in 5 years. We do not, mentally, have the right instinct. The killer, wanting to be the best instinct that typifies Hawthorn, Geelong etc. 

Our leadership yesterday was appalling. You could tell from the start. N Jones was trying dinky cute sideways kicks when last week he would have been running harder and kicking longer.

As for coaching: I don't know where to start. Selection was awful (I was in favour of Brayshaw's inclusion but I have to trust the FD to know if a player's fit or not and he was obviously not fit). Essendon played four forwards and used the other two up on a wing. We just left two spare defenders back. I think Worsfold knew that we routinely, every year, struggle when we drop a loose man back, so he just forced us into that pattern early and it worked. Our forward setup is still putrid - that's two weeks in a row now where we have had a clogged forward line and been content to bomb the ball into packs. No wonder Hogan can't take a mark! But the worst thing of all was Roos' response at the press conference that we're "tired". After Round 2, that is an appalling comment and makes me angrier than anything else.

As to the players: first two out must be Kent and Harmes. Neither of them put in anything close to the required basic minimum effort. I was embarrassed by both of them. 

McDonald, Watts and Viney were shadows of their performances from Round 1. I have no explanations for any of them (Watts was limping a bit, he may have had a corkie, but no excuses otherwise AFAIK).

I have no understanding of how anyone could think Lumumba played well. It's one thing to say "he gives us run" but that "run" is inevitably dangerous running into an opponent or into trouble, followed by a turnover. He was useless and a total liability.

Hogan rolled his ankle halfway through the game and couldn't run as he should be able to. However, his body language is terrible and his second efforts are non-existent. I cannot and will not blame him for his teammates' poor delivery and continual clogging of the forward line, but he clearly needs to lift his effort.

I will give credit to Kennedy, Jetta and Garlett who, IMO, were the only three players to put in the required effort for four quarters.

Overall, the saddest thing about all this is that I'm just not that surprised. 

[Slartibartfast 16,870]

16 minutes ago, waynewussell said:

well, I like to read these threads after a win or a loss. I like to get the view from other perspectives. Quite often I am staggered by how far removed from reality some 'supporters' find themselves after an upset. This chatter about Roos and Goodwin having different game plans is hilarious! The suggestion that Roos only won a premiership at Sydney because of one mark is very similar in tone to the description of Hogan's dummy-spit when things don't go his way. The reality is, we didn't play well in a game we were expected to win. That's it! That's all of it! We were, however, ahead and looking likely to win half way through the final stanza. The analysis of why we struggled and why Essendon prevailed is enlightening. The Bombers got up for a game that was earmarked as a line in the sand moment. Our blokes couldn't counter the wave of emotion and intent. Viney doesn't suddenly become a lesser Viney! Oliver doesn't suddenly become an unworthy Rising Star! Gawn doesn't suddenly return to the VFL scrap heap! Roos doesn't suddenly become Mark Neeld! After a fine start to the 2016 season we got set back on our heels. The way we respond will tell us something of our future direction.

This is a terrific post if you don't want to think about things.  Oh, we played badly.  That's it.  That's all of it.  No need to do anything, no need to try and rectify what went wrong, no need to try and improve, it will all just happen.  Is that what you're offering?  I must have it wrong.

Honestly WW, you are so much better than that.

[Bossdog 2,002]

Ha Ha Ha Ha

I love reading these comments after a loss.....Last week we were champions, headed for the eight. This week we are a VFL side with absolutely no hope

Posters calling for coaches to be sacked, posters saying Roos is only a premiership coach because of one mark.....Please...Posters calling for heads to roll at selection (by my last count 15 players should be dropped according to posters).    One poster even said he was leaving Demonland and giving up on footy altogether.

We are in the 2nd round of a AFL season and whilst disappointed in the loss, there are many things to look forward to.

I am the ultra pessimist, I never go to a game thinking we can win but always hope.

I promise that the sun will come up in the morning and we will get chances to redeem ourselves

P.S.     Things could be worse......We could be Fremantle. 

[Return to Glory 8,213]

15 minutes ago, waynewussell said:

rjay "we played safe, they played to win..."

That sums it up for me.

Agreed. If I was going to put it another way, we played like a team scared to lose. Most of us have played (particularly with individual sports) in games where the performance is not a true indication of what was capable. Let's hope that's it or we're doomed. Doomed I say.

[jnrmac 19,890]

14 hours ago, AdamFarr said:

I think that's fair. Jeffy a little unlucky as well.

Yeah, I think with his 6 possesions he deserves to be in the best.

Lift your standards mate. We need to demand more from this bunch of pea-hearts.

[waynewussell 4,864]

"Honestly WW, you are so much better than that.".... I know BB 

[Macca 16,603]

The issue is above the shoulders ... many of our players lack drive and ambition and too many are not self-starters.  Again, Nate Jones seems to be the only player who can consistently be 'up' for games.

And it's been that way for a long time ... the best leaders are those who don't need to be spoken to or ever given a rev up - they just get on with the business with a minimum of fuss - and it has to happen in real games, training and practice matches can often portray false hope.

Fix the above issue and we'll be a proper footy team and a proper footy club ... drafting and trading in talent is only step 1 of the process - and the coaches can only do so much. Yesterday's result was on the players.

The team is doomed to repeat what we saw yesterday until the players take it upon themselves to collectively put their hands up - they shouldn't have a need to "buy-in" to a coach's philosophy or game plan - that stuff should be inbuilt for a league footballer ... and there lies the problem. 

These blokes know how to play footy but they have to realise that effort, application, energy and a never-say-die attitude is also required - every week.

We might be switched on next week and we might even win against North - but what happens after that?

 

 

[bush demon 1,989]

nhac

15 minutes ago, Bossdog said:

Ha Ha Ha Ha

I love reading these comments after a loss.....Last week we were champions, headed for the eight. This week we are a VFL side with absolutely no hope

Posters calling for coaches to be sacked, posters saying Roos is only a premiership coach because of one mark.....Please...Posters calling for heads to roll at selection (by my last count 15 players should be dropped according to posters).    One poster even said he was leaving Demonland and giving up on footy altogether.

We are in the 2nd round of a AFL season and whilst disappointed in the loss, there are many things to look forward to.

I am the ultra pessimist, I never go to a game thinking we can win but always hope.

I promise that the sun will come up in the morning and we will get chances to redeem ourselves

P.S.     Things could be worse......We could be Fremantle. 

i wouldn't mind Freo's win/loss ratio for the last two seasons, their fanatical crowds and i'm guessing, their bank balance. 

[lucifer 119]

Firstly, let me preface what I am about to write by saying, I wasn't one of the fans on here last week professing we had turned the corner and were in fact going to make the 8 this year. I thought we played a half of good footy, and were ultimately lucky to come away with the 4 points. The last quarter was great to watch, the first three not so much. 

I have supported this club for 35 years. I have been week in, week out. I enjoyed the late 90's/early 2000's. The inevitable rollercoaster of the Daniher years (one year on, one year off) the transition into the defenceless Bailey era with the all out attack, to the disaster that was the Neeld era. I was sucked in completely to the acquisition of Roos. And I will acknowledge that I am a huge supporter of some of the recruits he has managed to bring in - Vince, Tyson now Kennedy. Not so much Lumumba. I could go on about this but it's not really the point is it?

I have never been more embarassed to be a Melbourne supporter than I was yesterday. I know I will get the inevitable diatribe of "fair weather supporter" "don't follow us then". But if you can honestly tell me that what you watched yesterday was acceptable on any level you are kidding yourself. The only winner we had on the field for the day was Ben Kennedy. The players looked disinterested from the moment they ran out of the race. 

Roos was out coached badly yesterday. Why Garland was left on Daniher in the first half is beyond me. Why no one manned up on McDonald-Tippungwutti is beyond me. Why Roos allowed Essendon a spare man in our forward line is beyond me. Why he publicised that they had a small forward line, basically daring Worsfold to put Mitch Brown in the forward line is beyond me. Why the ball movement wasn't quicker to attempt to isolate the mismatch between Gwilt and Hogan is beyond me. 

As you can see from above, a lot of what happened yesterday is beyond me. I will continue to turn up, week in week out as I have for 35 years. But, when will this team stop being so mentally fragile? I couldn't believe the threads on here asking "how many will Hogan kick"? Or, "how much will we win by"? This is EXACTLY the type of game Melbourne lose every year. 

It kills me.

Edited April 3, 2016 by lucifer

[Lucifers Hero 38,962]

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

DEE TRAIN DEE RAILED by George on The Outer

After a promising start to the season with three NAB Challenge wins and another in the opening game of the season proper, everyone was lining up to board the Dee-train for 2016.

The trouble is that it barely got out of the station before the supporters realised there were too many passengers (again!) and no-one was driving the locomotive.  

When players start believing their own publicity, and take a win against a crippled side for granted, then it seems Melbourne will guarantee an insipid performance and lose the un-loseable. Against the Bombers, with a side made up of retired geriatrics and kids, the performance was simply putrid.

Gold Coast showed how to beat Essendon last week.  Come on hard, early and put a couple of quick goals on the board, and they will wilt.  No, our players came out half-hearted and expected someone, anyone to lift the tempo.  

Of course no-one did. And we continually gifted them goals with simply appalling turnovers.  This kept them in the game and built their hopes.  The end result was a foregone conclusion from the 1st quarter.

Just as equally disappointing was the lack of response from the coaching box. Thank heavens Joe Daniher cannot kick straight, because the game would have been over at half-time.  But all day long he was allowed to go one-on-one with his respective opponent, be that McDonald or Garland.  His height will always win out and it did.  

Contrast that with the double and triple teaming against Jesse Hogan.  That is how a coach can shut down a dominant forward, but nothing was done in 100 minutes of football.And we allowed Essendon to have unmarked wingers for the majority of the game.  

How a 2nd gamer in Tipungwuti was allowed such freedom to move the ball forward without an obvious opponent was damning.  His 20 disposals was more than 18 of the Melbourne players!

The selection panel has plenty to answer for again, for the omission of Dunn (save his having a mystery injury) left the team without a viable third tall in the backline and also someone who can kick beyond 50m to clear the zone that Essendon had set.  He may not provide the run, but he doesn’t have to if he repels the attacks in the first place!

Disappointingly, the mids failed to provide the necessary advantage that Gawn was providing in the ruck.  Not at the centre bounce, but the lack of intensity around the ground where it was needed most.  But that was only emblematic of a team going at half-pace.  

Brayshaw was obviously not ready for the seniors and ran out of puff early on, but Oliver showed his class with his efforts when he was injected into the middle.  Matt Jones needs to stay at Casey permanently as he is just not up to AFL standard, two of his turnovers resulting directly in Essendon goals.  

Jack Viney and Nathan Jones battled all day, but Bernie Vince provided little, despite 28 possessions. Dean Kent in contrast provided nothing with only 5 touches. Ben Kennedy was fantastic and stood out in stark contrast to others on the field. With three goals and 21 touches, 11 of them contested, he was exactly the role model for winning.  Sadly, others didn’t follow.

Jeff Garlett is exciting when on song, but provided little in forward pressure.  Hogan was similarly inclined, so the ball bounced out of attack all too frequently.  

This was a disgraceful performance from the side, not untypical of the worst of the past couple of years.  

How much have we progressed?  Have we progressed?

There is a good case to say nothing at all if you watched today’s game.  Against the bigger bodies at North in Tassie next weekend we will struggle, if this effort is the best we can produce.

 

 

An outstanding, considered review.  Please send to Paul Roos.  Seriously.

For my 2 cents worth.  While Roos, Macca and Goodwin develop the game plan and make selection decisions as a team my concern is what is happening in the box.  It is inconceivable that: 2 free ess mids free all day, Daniher flying high unhindered and their repetitive 'switch' in play did not get noticed in our box.  So what is happening in there?  3 blind mice?  3 (un) wise monkeys?  They did not see?  They certainly did not do. 

Could they not agree on a tactic so did nothing? 

Whatever it was we have a dysfunctional box and it needs fixing quickly.  For players to react during quarters and for the leaders to drive on-field plays they need clear instructions from the coaching panel.  If the latter give mixed messages or worse no messages, we see the team lack cohesion, direction and on-field leadership. 

I'm not ignoring the deplorable performance by the players but here I'm posting about the coaching.

The lack of response in the box is the thing I'm struggling with the most.  Hope they get their match day act together.  Fast!  Because if Roos thought there was a huge 'veil of negativity' among supporters last year, keep that performance going guys and you ain't seen nothing yet!

Edited April 3, 2016 by Lucifer's Hero

[Maple Demon 449]

2 hours ago, Wells 11 said:

kinda like Neelds last year all over again.

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee, but are you seriously comparing Paul Roos to Mark Neeld????

 

[Maple Demon 449]

34 minutes ago, waynewussell said:

rjay "we played safe, they played to win..."

That sums it up for me.

Or in the words of Ross Lyon from last week: "They showed up for a street fight. We showed up for a [Saturday] stroll".

[Redleg 40,041]

1 hour ago, Baghdad Bob said:

 

I think it's possible Jackson and Mahoney have a problem.  We live in interesting times. 

Didn't reproduce your entire post, but basically agree with it.

However, you didn't mention the glaringly obvious, poor structure, that together with the poor effort by the players, cost us the game. I am referring to the two loose Bomber players, one on each wing. They were responsible for the high possession stat and ultimately scoring of goals by the Bombers, as our players didn't know who to man up, with extra players everywhere.

My question and I would love to ask the Coaches exactly that, is who was responsible for not ordering a manning up of those players. I don't blame Roos nor Goodwin, I blame the bloody lot of them.

I have absolutely no doubt, that we would still have won the game, had we done that by say half time. I would have done it 3 minutes into the first quarter.

[mauriesy 7,153]

3 minutes ago, Redleg said:

However, you didn't mention the glaringly obvious, poor structure, that together with the poor effort by the players, cost us the game. I am referring to the two loose Bomber players, one on each wing. They were responsible for the high possession stat and ultimately scoring of goals by the Bombers, as our players didn't know who to man up, with extra players everywhere.

I read about the death of one-on-one football if favour of the 'modern rolling zone'. But sometimes I really wonder.

Not much point zoning down one side of the ground if your opposition switches out to free players on the other.

[Redleg 40,041]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

I appreciate that the modern game is all about rolling structures and that player's roles change within games, however, did anyone hear Tom McDonald's recent interview on the club website ?

He spoke of not being the only player taking Daniher and that other players would have their turns manning him up, including Nev Jetta.

In what world does a defence or gameplan allow your smallest back to take the opposition's tallest ?  I haven't seen the game and maybe Jetta never had that turn and perhaps McDonald was just deflecting the question, but I thought it a strange response.  Especially when the player in question was pivotal to the result a year earlier. 

Daniher created the mismatches, by running into the middle and being picked up by a mid and then running back to the goals, with the mid with him.

I pointed it out in the first quarter and called the play a few minutes before it happened. Quite a few times he was manned by Bugg or Jetta one out and the bleeding obvious then happened.

At those moments Garland and T Mac were on smaller players.

I repeat, the Coaching for us was diabolical yesterday.

 

[dazzledavey36 52,728]

Jack Viney was just interviewd on Sunday footy show with Mitch Cleary and he just mentioned that maybe some players did go into the game thinking it will be a stroll in the park....

[jnrmac 19,890]

2016 rinse and repeat

[WhyAlwaysMe 237]

3 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Jack Viney was just interviewd on Sunday footy show with Mitch Cleary and he just mentioned that maybe some players did go into the game thinking it will be a stroll in the park....

i wonder where the players got that idea? selection panel picks underdone players to get some match fitness thinking it will be a stroll in the pack perhaps.

[Demon Dynasty 17,091]

36 minutes ago, Macca said:

The issue is above the shoulder many of our players lack .ambition and too many . are not self-starters.  Again, Nate Jones seems to be the only player who can consistently be 'up' for games.

And it's been that way for a long time ... the best leaders are those who don't need to be spoken to or ever given a rev up - they just get on with the business with a minimum of fuss - and it has to happen in real games, training and practice matches can often portray false hope.

Fix the above issue and we'll be a proper footy team and a proper footy club ... drafting and trading in talent is only step 1 of the process - and the coaches can only do so much. Yesterday's result was on the players.

The team is doomed to repeat what we saw yesterday until the players take it upon themselves to collectively put their hands up - they shouldn't have a need to "buy-in" to a coach's philosophy or game plan - that stuff should be inbuilt for a league footballer ... and there lies the problem. 

These blokes know how to play footy but they have to realise that effort, application, energy and a never-say-die attitude is also required - every week.

We might be switched on next week and we might even win against North - but what happens after that?

 

 

After a reasonable start to the season the playing group / coaches couldnt have had a better opportunity to keep the momentum and feel around the club going with a hard fought critical win against an old enemy yesterday. If neither the coach or the playing group as a whole are willing to face, address and Correct  what went wrong (which was mostly upstairs & effort) then we will just continue to be Irrelevant In this competition. We will also be looking at 4 to 5 wins tops.

 

 

 

[Sir Why You Little 36,603]

21 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Jack Viney was just interviewd on Sunday footy show with Mitch Cleary and he just mentioned that maybe some players did go into the game thinking it will be a stroll in the park....

What a Blight on The Coaches & Leadership group to allow that mind set to fester

a win by 15 goals was possible yesterday, but that requires Sustained Hard Work...

[Monocology 1,109]

This club kills me however will remain a 'battered wife' with 'misfortune STD' & will give next week a chance before going into full-blown meltdown.

I'm not sure how many Jamacin bobsled-type teams are left for our best 22 to build confidence over though.

My gut is with Goodwin to get this list working and prepared to bleed - I'm not sure why exactly, but it is.

Edited April 3, 2016 by Monocology

[Macca 16,603]

9 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

After a reasonable start to the season the playing group / coaches couldnt have had a better opportunity to keep the momentum and feel around the club going with a hard fought critical win against an old enemy yesterday. If neither the coach or the playing group as a whole are willing to face, address and Correct  what went wrong (which was mostly upstairs & effort) then we will just continue to be Irrelevant In this competition. We will also be looking at 4 to 5 wins tops.

 

 

 

 

We can get to 8-10 wins but that's not much of an ambition - somehow, I feel the players and club would be somewhat satisfied with 8-10 wins too - and there lies the problem.  8-10 wins is a mediocre year in my eyes no matter where we've come from or how other clubs are faring.

The first minute of yesterday's game told us what we were going to get for the rest of the afternoon - forget the mistakes, we just did not come to play - in round 2.  Unacceptable.

It's above the shoulders with this playing group and with the club in general.  They all need to stop talking and start getting the job done.  I just wonder about our capabilities in that area though - they can all kick and mark to a certain extent but as for the rest of it, I'm not so sure.

 

[Adam The God 29,327]

10 minutes ago, Monocology said:

This club kills me however will remain a 'battered wife' with 'misfortune STD' & will give next week a chance before going into full-blown meltdown.

I'm not sure how many Jamacin bobsled-type teams are left for our best 22 to build confidence over though.

My gut is with Goodwin to get this list working and prepared to bleed - I'm not sure why exactly, but it is.

I get what you're saying, but it's a pretty insensitive post.