Tom McDonald needs to take a good hard look at himself.

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

32 minutes ago, martin said:

Tom McDonald in his current role is an absolute liability. He has been for a long time. For the life of me I cannot understand why we have recruited Frost,leaving him running around the forward line like a headless chook when he is a nailed on defender. Conversely,McDonald's ball winning ability could be an asset further up the field without the morale sapping costly turnovers. Could someone please explain to me why the coaching staff have not at least experimented with this option in the NAB challenge? Quizzical to say the least.

Reckon our disposal skills by foot (ability to lower eyes and hit targets) and decision making in transistion from HB in general today was pretty ordinary about half the time. At other times it wasn't too bad. Need to clean up this aspect if we're to get anywhere near 10 wins this year as many scribes seem to think we should get (roughly) with this list.

Our circle handball work away and out of congestion is better though IMO. Probably over doing it at times but a big improvement on last year so far from what i've seen.

Clean up the first part and we should get 10+ wins. If we don't we'll be looking at 7/8 again me thinks.

I like Martin's idea of trialling T Mac up forward during the NAB cup as he's just too panicky down back and disposal/decision making hmmm. Too late now though. Could try for the last match i guess.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Rusty Nails

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

1 minute ago, Macca said:

We're using the corridor a lot more so therefore the rule of unintended consequences kicks in.

We need a lot more numbers in the corridor if we're going to use the corridor - the turnovers happened (and there were a lot of them) because if a player has to move to receive the ball, an opposition player can intercept (especially if we're greatly outnumbered)

Our players just don't have the pinpoint accuracy skills but the answer is not to go back to hugging the boundary (which is an even worse option if the skills are poor) ... the answer is to work on our foot-skills (crash-course style) and get more numbers in the corridor. 

The issue is related to T-Mac but any number of our players can be culprits ... I saw a number of our players turn the ball over today with poor decision making and poor execution. Reading this thread one might be led to believe that the issue only pertains to one player.

 

 

Kennedy, Harmes, Kent, Watts, the list goes on for guys who turned it over and do it too often.

But McDonald and Grimes (who's now out of the backline) are probably the only two who routinely miss kick the ball. 

All players will misread distance or  not identify an opponent and occasionally turn it over. If that's all McDonald did I could live with it.

The issues for McDonald are that he'll clean shank a kick purely from poor execution combined with that he'll run himself in to trouble. Early last year he was getting out of trouble and therefore cutting down on the panicked turnovers and he wasn't shanking it so much. As his confidence went the mistakes started to come.

[bing181 9,219]

Fine. But there's the other side to the McDonald coin. Equal most kicks today (for example). Of the others down back, Dunn had 2, Garland had 5. For Marks, Tom was in the top 4. Garland didn't take a mark all day, and Dunn took one. Even his disposal efficiency: poor today, but around the same as Jack Watts and Christian Salem, supposedly amongst the best kicks at the club.

But the most telling stat in Tom's favour (to offset the stats in the "clangers" column) is game time. Most players are averaging 70% - 80%. Tom managed 90%. Big difference.

In regards to Tom, notwithstanding his failings, there's more than enough to work with. Like it or not, his name is always going to be one of the first on the team sheet.

[Slartibartfast 17,265]

27 minutes ago, Forest Demon said:

Hopefully they swap Frost and TMac around for the last week. We know he will get plenty of it at CHF, and can just bomb long to Hogan rather than trying to pick passes coming out of defence. Simples.

Sorry Dazzle.  TMac's kicking was terrible today but he defended very well.  If someone has marginal kicking it will be exposed in windy conditions.

Boyd, Redpath and the other Doggy talls were very well held today and TMac was a good part of that.  I agree he makes poor decisions and should handball where possible.

I think you're seeing it too black and white.

[binman 42,919]

4 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Sorry Dazzle.  TMac's kicking was terrible today but he defended very well.  If someone has marginal kicking it will be exposed in windy conditions.

Boyd, Redpath and the other Doggy talls were very well held today and TMac was a good part of that.  I agree he makes poor decisions and should handball where possible.

I think you're seeing it too black and white.

I agree. His technique is shocking, with his high ball drop (same goes for Grimes) and poor technique will always be exposed in windy conditions especially when trying to pin point a pass to cross. And yes he his kicking was  poor. I reckon he cost us 3 goals in a 6 or 7 minutes in the first. But he also saved at least 3 with canny body positioning and cleaver spoils. Far from our worse.

[Macca 16,964]

5 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Kennedy, Harmes, Kent, Watts, the list goes on for guys who turned it over and do it too often.

But McDonald and Grimes (who's now out of the backline) are probably the only two who routinely miss kick the ball. 

All players will misread distance or  not identify an opponent and occasionally turn it over. If that's all McDonald did I could live with it.

The issues for McDonald are that he'll clean shank a kick purely from poor execution combined with that he'll run himself in to trouble. Early last year he was getting out of trouble and therefore cutting down on the panicked turnovers and he wasn't shanking it so much. As his confidence went the mistakes started to come.

And let's not leave out those who didn't get the ball enough to turn it over ... Dunn, Garland*, Vince, Jetta, Pedersen, Kent, Frost and a few others. Jones accumulated (as usual) but didn't do much with it. Ditto for Grimes and Matt Jones.

The issue is so much bigger than one player who executed poorly today .. many on our list makes poor decisions and execute poorly ... plus, many are terrible on their 'opposite side' ... quite seriously, it's our biggest issue but many here are more concerned about 'game plans'

*Garland turned the ball over for nearly half his possessions and he only got it 10 times ... these threads should never be about one player - context is always required. It should also not be forgotten that (as others have mentioned above) T-Mac does a lot of very good work down back.

I'm also concerned about the possession count of a number of our players ... against B/C grade opposition. However, I thought our new players acquitted themselves well - especially Oliver.

 

[Forest Demon 4,681]

13 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Sorry Dazzle.  TMac's kicking was terrible today but he defended very well.  If someone has marginal kicking it will be exposed in windy conditions.

Boyd, Redpath and the other Doggy talls were very well held today and TMac was a good part of that.  I agree he makes poor decisions and should handball where possible.

I think you're seeing it too black and white.

It was actually myself rather than Dazzle that you quoted, but it was said with half tongue in cheek that it as simple as swapping him and frost around. I appreciate McDonald is easily our best defender, and his ability to run means he creates a lot of dash out of the back half, which is important. But he can't have days like he had today, which is definitely not a one off, otherwise we are just about no chance of winning In the season proper  while turning it over like that. It is definitely a massive conundrum.

Edited March 6, 2016 by Forest Demon

[Wilbur 447]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Stop sugar coating the truth. He was rubbish. Didn't stop Salem Vince and even Mat Jones from using the ball well today.

Petty little excuses as always.

petty  excuse  really? I think you  need  to go have  a cold shower

[hells bells 2,023]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Absolutely appalling today. Don't care the slightest that its a practise game. the bigger issue is he has been on our list for 6 years yet he cannot kick to save himself. He has cost us at least nearly 5 goals from direct turnovers and he will continue to kill us in games this year. Time and time again he tries to be too cute. He needs to know his limitations and keep it simple and give off the first option.

Also if he wants to hold off on extending his contract then he seriously needs to pull his finger out of his ass because he is part of the problem we are killed in games from costly turnovers.

Needs to lift, he was horrendous today.

 

Could not agree more...

There should be a blanket ban on him kicking into the corridor.  It's just too risky.  

The biggest issue will be opposition teams will leave him free at the stoppage in the knowledge that he will turn it over more often than not.

Edited March 6, 2016 by hells bells

[Slartibartfast 17,265]

2 minutes ago, Forest Demon said:

It was actually myself rather than Dazzle that you quoted, but it was said with half tongue in cheek that it as simple as swapping him and frost around. I appreciate McDonald is easily our best defender, and his ability to run means he creates a lot of dash out of the back half, which is important. But he can't have days like he had today, which is definitely not a one off, otherwise we are just about no chance of winning In the season proper  while turning it over like that. It is definitely a massive conundrum.

Yeah, sorry, I got confused!

I reckon that if Frost played back you'd leak goals because he'd be only marginally effective.  He's no better kick either.  Tommy is not perfect by any stretch but he's much better than many in this thread are making out.

[beelzebub 23,364]

All things aside  as Mr Callahan famously once quipped, 'A man's got to know his limitations '

Tom's kicking is NOT his forte. On a swirly day he made some atrocious decisions nearly all of them to do with disposal, mainly kicking. 

He should be able to make good ones by now, surely ?

[DeeSpencer 25,687]

5 minutes ago, Macca said:

And let's not leave out those who didn't get the ball enough to turn it over ... Dunn, Garland*, Vince, Jetta, Pedersen, Kent, Frost and a few others. Jones accumulated (as usual) but didn't do much with it. Ditto for Grimes and Matt Jones.

The issue is so much bigger than one player who executed poorly today .. many on our list makes poor decisions and execute poorly ... plus, many are terrible on their 'opposite side' ... quite seriously, it's our biggest issue but many here are more concerned about 'game plans'

*Garland turned the ball over for nearly half his possessions and he only got it 10 times ... these threads should never be about one player - context is always required. It should also not be forgotten that (as others have mentioned above) T-Mac does a lot of very good work down back.

I'm also concerned about the possession count of a number of our players ... against B/C grade opposition. However, I thought our new players acquitted themselves well - especially Oliver.

 

Most of those players are what they are though. We know Pedersen and Frost aren't stars, they are competing to have a crack as 2nd ruck/forward. Kent had a down day. Dunn played a half. M Jones and Grimes were ok etc etc.

Garland could easily be included in this thread. But at this stage of his career I'm a bit over the expectations on Garland. He's a 3rd tall defender who mostly doesn't get destroyed by his opponent and usually minimises his errors. 

McDonald is meant to be a quality legitimate tall defender and he continues to have incredibly poor awareness and kicking skills. The form he's in now compared to the start of last year is probably a 5 goal swing to games. It's very worrying. 

[Biffen 12,943]

Todd Viney was a shocking kick of the football but still an effective player.Tom Mac had a bad day but he will improve. I actually prefer his long handball on the run.

[autocol 448]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

His kicking is average at best and he needs to understand that.  Rather than trying to be too cute or clever he just needs to get the ball forward to a contest.

I can state with total certainty that the coach's instructions to the defenders is not "just boot it forward to a contest".

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Something I wish we had addressed in the off-season. Kicking skills and decision making in general from our back-six.

I will again go on record as saying Garland literally adds nothing to our back six currently. Today he offered nothing. Turned the ball over again, gave away free-kicks, he never spreads hard enough, wasn't nearly urgent enough, seemed to get what looked like a serious injury at least twice but within minutes was back to normal. He basically looks like a kid playing his first game such is the way he carries himself on-field. I honestly can't understand it. I'm baffled. Is there another excuse I'm missing as to why in both NAB challenge games he has been so incredibly underwhelming as a senior member of our back six? WTF.

McDonald competes hard but has a limited skill-level. In disposal namely. It's [censored] awful.

Lynden Dunn is another who just hasn't commanded the same presence since his stellar year at FB. 

I understand the club has prioritised adding talent and depth to the midfield but there are some other areas on our list that badly need addressing and our back-six have always been problematic in one way or another in my eyes.

Next year it's absolutely paramount we add some class to this list. Players who are composed with ball in hand. We have gone all out on contested ball winning mids but we lack class and composure on every line. 

Garland, Dunn, McDonald, Frost, Pederson.

I don't feel confident when any of them are taking a kick. That's nearly our entire Key position brigade. It's an enormous worry.

Kicking should be a [censored] prerequisite for almost every player brought to the club in this age of football.

Have Hawthorn not stamped that on every club's forehead for the last few years?!

 

 

 

Edited March 6, 2016 by stevethemanjordan

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, autocol said:

I can state with total certainty that the coach's instructions to the defenders is not "just boot it forward to a contest".

Very true.

I mean it more in situations where there isn't much on.  I don't mind them switching the ball or hitting up short targets without too much pressure.  It's more when there really isn't anything else on that they should go long down the line and give us a 50/50 chance.  This love affair with trying to create something out of nothing has to stop.

 

 

[picket fence 17,150]

Agree with Dazzle and ohers 

He is the weak link in the core chain,

1 Can be outpositioned

2 Makes elementary Skill errors

3 Worse still some of his decision making leaves a lot to be desired as well!

I reckon throw Frost back to CHB and play him as a "Wild Card" Forward 

He is far too iffy defense.

Also if he wants to hedge on contract negotiations , So be it I don't actually rate him that highly!

[mo64 5,874]

12 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Yeah, sorry, I got confused!

I reckon that if Frost played back you'd leak goals because he'd be only marginally effective.  He's no better kick either.  Tommy is not perfect by any stretch but he's much better than many in this thread are making out.

I actually think that Frost is a worse kick than T Mac.

A good team can work around a good defender who is a poor kick (Dunkley, Dawson). The problem with T Mac is twofold. He's not surrounded by skillful ball users (Salem excluded), and in the 2nd half of last year, he was beaten too regularly by his opponent.

I said last week that our backline wasn't structured with the right personnel if we intend to be a more attacking team. Dunn (good kick but little run) T Mac (run but poor kick) Garland (not sure what he offers) Jetta (there are many more creative small defenders in the AFL). On their day, they can shut down their opponents, but we need them to do more.

 

 

[Macca 16,964]

1 minute ago, DeeSpencer said:

Most of those players are what they are though. We know Pedersen and Frost aren't stars, they are competing to have a crack as 2nd ruck/forward. Kent had a down day. Dunn played a half. M Jones and Grimes were ok etc etc.

Garland could easily be included in this thread. But at this stage of his career I'm a bit over the expectations on Garland. He's a 3rd tall defender who mostly doesn't get destroyed by his opponent and usually minimises his errors. 

McDonald is meant to be a quality legitimate tall defender and he continues to have incredibly poor awareness and kicking skills. The form he's in now compared to the start of last year is probably a 5 goal swing to games. It's very worrying. 

I can accept his flaws - today wasn't great but he's still a miles better player than most on our list. I reckon you and others want him to be something he may not be able to be.

It's no disgrace to only reach B or B+ level ... those 'wanting' A grade with T-Mac might have to accept him for what he is (for now) ... he could end up a much better player anyway (he's still only 23 years old)

As I posted earlier, we have any number of players with decision making and execution issues. T-Mac might be better off being under instruction to handball off to other players (who are instructed to run off him) or kick 'down the line' to position. I'd be more inclined in using other players when using the corridor.

Salem, Dunn, Garland, Jetta and a few others can all run off T-Mac and create position for a handpass ... we just need to be a lot more creative and spread more from the backline.

[dazzledavey36 54,888]

30 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Yeah, sorry, I got confused!

I reckon that if Frost played back you'd leak goals because he'd be only marginally effective.  He's no better kick either.  Tommy is not perfect by any stretch but he's much better than many in this thread are making out.

I highly doubt that.

[Tony Tea 2,809]

I seem to recall from a couple of years ago a Demon player getting votes from the radio commentators, but Mick Malthouse refused to give the player votes, saying you don't deserve anything when you slaughter the footy. Was Mick talking about Tommy Mac?

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

33 minutes ago, Baghdad Bob said:

Yeah, sorry, I got confused!

I reckon that if Frost played back you'd leak goals because he'd be only marginally effective.  He's no better kick either.  Tommy is not perfect by any stretch but he's much better than many in this thread are making out.

What on earth do you mean?

Anyone can acknowledge his strengths, he is a really strong one-on-one defender and offers a lot from that perspective. 

However if you disagree with what anyone is saying about his skills and decision making, I think it's you that needs a wake up a call. 

[Nasher 33,615]

1 hour ago, P-man said:

I hope critical discussion of T Mac doesn't get immediately shut down on here like it has done to date. 

He's a good one one one defender, but there are aspects to his game that aren't even AFL standard. Today was NOT a one off.

The problem I see is that the discussion is often lead by people who have clearly already formed their opinion and aren't going to ever budge.  DeeSpencer as GRRM last year embarrassed himself big time with his "I've had enough of Tom McDonald" thread at the beginning of last year, went quiet for a long time, then suddenly McDonald plays a few poor games again, and he we are with the "see? He's terrible" stuff.  I respect that people are entitled to their own opinion, just don't go expecting a riveting discussion about it when that is the starting point of the conversation.

[Je Roos Salem 661]

He's our hardest trier in the backline by a fair way. People were still criticising Tom's disposal when he dominated around the ground against Essendon last year. I think you can't always point the finger at Tom when he's one of few players who make up for their disposal errors with a magnificent work rate. Garland's form has been worse and Dunn has been fairly average too. 

[waynewussell 5,738]

iI wonder how many of Tom's detractors were at Craigieburn today. Yes, he stuffed a few kicks and sometimes missed targets BUT... hos second, third and fourth efforts were exemplary. I am on his back when he takes too long to make a decision, but his aerobic ability is top class and he never gives up. He was still influential in our win today. For the lounge room critics, the wind was very strong to one end today (I'll call it the northern end). The ground was very open, not a lot different than Casey. Only the most skilful kickers came out unscathed. McDonald had much more influence than Dunn, and although Garland was terrific in commitment and pressure acts, he did not have the disposal numbers that McDonald had. He remains in the top ten rebound big men in the AFL!

Edited March 6, 2016 by waynewussell