Dion Prestia

[Guest]

On 5/27/2016 at 11:05 AM, AdamFarr said:

The main reason the final recruitment strategy hasn't been a main feature across Roos' tenure is because the MFC itself hasn't represented any value to the outside footballing community. Instead, we've decided to identify which players were worth keeping and building a side around. All the while, this enabled us to finish lower on the ladder and stockpile draft picks. Our defensive mindset was never going to win us a lot of games, but the scoreline was usually respectable.

Roos and co have basically performed a stealth rebuild and 'list management' strategy across three years, but done it very cleverly. Freo are doing vaguely similar things, playing an outdated brand of football that will see they don't get blown off the park every week, but also won't win most games. 

But returning to my original point, we are now in a position to attract quality players and Dion is one of them. 

POTY

Seriously hit the nail on the head.

[PaulRB 6,422]

28 minutes ago, Skuit said:

These strategies have done extremely well in delivering us to this point and we certainly have a lot of internal development to come - but now that we're here in a new phase of team development, is it time to implement another strategy? We're set to lose some draft currency for one thing, and the departing free agent bonuses that come with it. Will more Buggs, Kennedys, Vanders etc. along with lesser incoming elite talent see us simply hold ground rather than become serious challengers?

It's interesting as to how best trade in a top grade player. What type of players do we have a surplus of, that the target clubs require? or should we focus on free agents for nothing in trade terms?

So two paths to get an A-grader:

1. Trade out pick and quality players (who are surplus but good) and pay solid cash for player (not free agent), or
2. Buy a free agent and use picks, hold players, but spend up big

 Does it depend on how close we see ourselves to being a contender? or how confident we are to trade out the right player to keep list moving forward?

Edited May 27, 2016 by PaulRB

[Gator 17,628]

2 hours ago, PaulRB said:

Our smart recruiting and new found ability to actually develop the top shelf talent we have into top shelf players means we need Dion less than in previous years.

Let me state this clearly:  I'd be happy to get him and don't doubt his talents.

However, one of the main reasons we're rising is because our football department has done several things very well

1. Identified MFC players whose currency outside the club is high, but whose role or value or commitment to the club may be limited (in terms of building a premiership team), and have traded them out for maximum gain. For example, Frawley, Howe, Clark.   
2. Identified and traded for players at other clubs who've yet to hit their ceiling as a player, or had issues, and provide something the club needs. These players have often come cheap as their current clubs didn't value what they offered. For example, Tyson, Bug, Kennedy, Garlett,...
3. Identified and recruited mature sub-AFL level players who would flourish under a professional and well managed development program. For example, Vanders, Wagner
4. Traded draft picks and players to gain access to high draft picks. For example, Oliver, Petracca, etc...

Dion represents a recruitment path that hasn't been great for us, that is, recruiting top shelf players who are at their ceiling and come at at high price financially and in terms of trade cost. For example, Dawes, Lamumba, Clark.

Perhaps we'd be better to stick to the strategies that have us on the rise and let other clubs engage in a bidding war to acquire Dion?

All true.

As for Dion ?  Let's remember that players nearly always get to their preferred destination and I can't think of too many times where the destination club has overpaid.

[The Chazz 4,077]

32 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

It's interesting as to how best trade in a top grade player. What type of players do we have a surplus of, that the target clubs require? or should we focus on free agents for nothing in trade terms?

So two paths to get an A-grader:

1. Trade out pick and quality players (who are surplus but good) and pay solid cash for player (not free agent), or
2. Buy a free agent and use picks, hold players, but spend up big

 Does it depend on how close we see ourselves to being a contender? or how confident we are to trade out the right player to keep list moving forward?

Don't get me wrong, we wouldn't be resting on our laurels, and would always welcome top end talent, especially established players that want to come to us.

That said, I'm certain the club is very happy with the players they have picked up toward the top end of the draft in the past 3 years.  They would be backing themselves in to turning Hogan, Viney, Tyson, Salem, Brayshaw, Pettracca, Oliver and The Weed in to true A graders.  If we manage to develop the odd 2nd or 3rd rounder (or rookie draft) in to an A grader too (i.e. like what has happened to Gawn and Tom Mc, potentially Stretch and ANB), then they are an added bonus.

Solid foot soldiers like Bugg, Ben Ken, Harmes, Kent, Jeffy, Nev, Newton, these types of blokes are the ones that need to ensure they play consistent footy.  They will get us to the finals, it's the names listed in the paragraph above that will win us finals.

If we are going to chase a guy, I think it has to be Hurley.  If Prestia wants to come to us, then we go and get him, but if we have to convince anyone, Hurley would be my man. 

[Skuit 10,031]

12 minutes ago, PaulRB said:

It's interesting as to how best trade in a top grade player. What type of players do we have a surplus of, that the target clubs require? or should we focus on free agents for nothing in trade terms?

So two paths to get an A-grader:

1. Trade out pick and quality players (who are surplus but good) and pay solid cash for player (not free agent), or
2. Buy a free agent and use picks, hold players, but spend up big

 Does it depend on how close we see ourselves to being a contender? or how confident we are to trade out the right player to keep list moving forward?

One thing that has always struck me - salary caps never appear to be as perilous as you'd expect. Top teams seem to keep adding big-money players without a great deal of concern. I understand that their players often sacrifice some income for success, but with Frawley to the Hawks for example, on the reported contract figure, you'd imagine that their senior players are still doing pretty well as otherwise it would likely breed a fair amount of resentment.  It's probably not abnormal, but we seem to be locking in a core group of solid players till 2019, with I imagine an internally expected genuine tilt from 2018-?. Maybe the hope is that with some success by then, our group would be willing to take a pay-cut of some degree on their next signature. So do we spend big now on imports?

Along with being a savvy move in terms of our projected trajectory, I think with us trading out of this year's first round it gives a pretty good indication that we're ready to lock down with the young talent base we have (I actually expected us to do it it last year - and I'm very glad they didn't in big blazing Oliver hindsight). While opting out draft-wise for immediate success always seems fraught with long-tern danger, we've assembled a sizeable brigade of potentially-elite youngsters by double-dipping at the top-end of the past few drafts. All in all, I think we're ready to throw our picks around, including next year's, in order to attract some serious talent. We're also in an unfamiliar position as supporters in that we need to get used to the idea that soon we'll probably be trading out genuinely good or performing players for a shot at an upgrade.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, Stretch Johnson said:

POTY

Seriously hit the nail on the head.

I didn't realise stating the obvious garnered you POTY type of love, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

Plenty of the season left to go, we might look like a destination club a little at the moment, but a few losses and a slide down the ladder will not look all that flash to prospective recruits.

[Guest]

On 5/27/2016 at 2:25 PM, Wiseblood said:

I didn't realise stating the obvious garnered you POTY type of love, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

Plenty of the season left to go, we might look like a destination club a little at the moment, but a few losses and a slide down the ladder will not look all that flash to prospective recruits.

Probably not obvious to many who called into question Roos'  defensive tactics.

Or the wrist slashers who cut up over the exits of Howe and Frawley.

Thanks for your input.

[In Harmes Way 7,826]

5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

Strangely enough  I think not only would this be the case but I would suspect that as appreciation  for not be duck shoved to where ever but having been valued by the club for his efforts he would repay  back in spades with enthusiasm. Dawes is well respected at the club. ets use what abilities he has in a meaningful way. I suspect his remunerance  might adapt though.

Jaeger to me is a big risk. . Prestia seems a better get...just me...for the correct quantity of sheckles.

Right quantity of sheckles reminds me of this beer ad when I lived in the UK - how about three groats and a turnip for Prestia?

 

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, Stretch Johnson said:

Probably not obvious to many who called into question Roos'  defensive tactics.

Or the wrist slashers who cut up over the exits of Howe and Frawley.

Thanks for your input.

I don't think there were many of those, although I'd admit a few might slash their wrists a little over Frawley now that they believe we need him, even though that's clearly not the case as it's our defensive setup that needs tweaking, not so much the personnel.

 

[Grand New Flag 3,227]

Lets be clear. 

 

If Dion chooses us as his preferred destination, he will end up a Dee.  

You can never have too many A Graders.  Those who say we have too many players of his ilk are being naive.  How many midfield A Graders has Hawthorn had in the last 5 years? Many of them have had to play in alternative positions, but the key to their success is firstly recruiting them and secondly having them play their role which may only be periodically and briefly through the midfield.

I have no idea what we will have to give up for Dion, but once a player declares a destination, the destination club is in a position of power. The departing club has rarely received market value, particularly since free agency. The acquiring club has almost never failed to sign their man once preferred destination is declared.

My understanding is Dion will choose us. Hogan will re-sign along with McDonald.  We are unlikely to lose regular 22 by choice.  

As I have previously said, I will retire GNF if I am wrong.  This is the firm belief of our club.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Grand New Flag

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

13 minutes ago, Grand New Flag said:

Lets be clear. 

 

If Dion chooses us as his preferred destination, he will end up a Dee.  

You can never have too many A Graders.  Those who say we have too many players of his ilk are being naive.  How many midfield A Graders has Hawthorn had in the last 5 years? Many of them have had to play in alternative positions, but the key to their success is firstly recruiting them and secondly having them play their role which may only be periodically and briefly through the midfield.

I have no idea what we will have to give up for Dion, but once a player declares a destination, the destination club is in a position of power. The departing club has rarely received market value, particularly since free agency. The acquiring club has almost never failed to sign their man once preferred destination is declared.

My understanding is Dion will choose us. Hogan will re-sign along with McDonald.  We are unlikely to lose regular 22 by choice.  

As I have previously said, I will retire GNF if I am wrong.  This is the firm belief of our club.

I really hope you don't need your super GNF.  I really do.

[old55 23,800]

14 minutes ago, Grand New Flag said:

You can never have too many A Graders.  

Impossible to disagree but there's always an opportunity cost.  There's a limit to the number of A graders you can bring in so you have to make sure you get the right ones for your needs in trade.  We've already had STMJ saying it would be ideal if we get Prestia, Hurley and Jenkins in (he back-pedalled and said he meant " players of this type", so did he really mean he's be happy with Menadue, Dea and Daw - I don't think so).  Clearly we are not going to get those three to the club but we could get one - which one?

[Ethan Tremblay 31,168]

Didn't he choose us last season? The club has already come out and said they expect McDonald and Hogan to re-sign. The club didn't want to pressure Hogan into extending his contract during the preseason so they put it on hold and told Hogan and his management to approach the club when Hogan felt comfortable. The club knows he's not going anywhere at the end of this season so there was no rush to push contract talks.

As for Prestia, every man and his dog thinks, if he leaves GC, the Dee's is his preferred club. 

I remember in 2013 when Prestia was fully fit he tore us up. Anyone who says we have too many of his type are crazy. When fit, he's a gun. 

Edited May 27, 2016 by Ethan Tremblay

[binman 44,196]

56 minutes ago, Grand New Flag said:

 

You can never have too many A Graders.  

Roos said as much recently in a presser and said that we would be targeting A grade mids at the end of this year. In reality to win a flag a club need as many as 12 really good mids and at least 2 -3 of them have to be A graders. 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Fairly ambiguous, this 'can never have enough A-grade mids' talk.

For example, take Priddis. He is A-grade, but it's fairly obvious that you can't have too many pure inside players who are one-paced and one-sided. 

Tyson is the equivalent for us who may well become an A-grade insider in time.. However he can almost only play through the midfield as an inside mid. 

Not that it's news to posters. 

A-grade mids with attributes that our list are in need of is specifically what we're after.

And I'd say that those attributes are class, foot-skills and pace. 

Dion has the capacity to play positions outside of the 'inside-mid' role because he possesses some diverse attributes. Obviously, he'd be handy. 

Everytime we come up against players like Dahlhaus and Steven, I think to myself 'they're the players we are missing through our midfield'.

Classy users and line-breaking ability.

I reckon if Prestia came to us, he'd be used much more on the outside given our strength inside the contest. He has break-away pace, and a great kick.

Edited May 27, 2016 by stevethemanjordan

[Adam The God 30,541]

53 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Fairly ambiguous, this 'can never have enough A-grade mids' talk.

For example, take Priddis. He is A-grade, but it's fairly obvious that you can't have too many pure inside players who are one-paced and one-sided. 

Tyson is the equivalent for us who may well become an A-grade insider in time.. However he can almost only play through the midfield as an inside mid. 

Not that it's news to posters. 

A-grade mids with attributes that our list are in need of is specifically what we're after.

And I'd say that those attributes are class, foot-skills and pace. 

Dion has the capacity to play positions outside of the 'inside-mid' role because he possesses some diverse attributes. Obviously, he'd be handy. 

Everytime we come up against players like Dahlhaus and Steven, I think to myself 'they're the players we are missing through our midfield'.

Classy users and line-breaking ability.

I reckon if Prestia came to us, he'd be used much more on the outside given our strength inside the contest. He has break-away pace, and a great kick.

I don't. I reckon he'll play inside and outside as he has for the rest of his career, and he'll be straight into our starting centre circle.

[adsy 145]

This will sound like the 'Judd's Grandmother' days, but he's 100% moving back to Melbourne to be closer to family and has informed GC. Unfortunately he's tossing up between Tigers and Kangas. Guessing money is a key factor, but not sure. Perhaps inside mid isn't one of our key priorities and with his injury history we're focusing our attention elsewhere? 
 

Source - his sister

[Wilson7 2,688]

1 minute ago, adsy said:

This will sound like the 'Judd's Grandmother' days, but he's 100% moving back to Melbourne to be closer to family and has informed GC. Unfortunately he's tossing up between Tigers and Kangas. Guessing money is a key factor, but not sure. Perhaps inside mid isn't one of our key priorities and with his injury history we're focusing our attention elsewhere? 
 

Source - his sister

Hopefully Hurley

[praha 11,240]

14 minutes ago, adsy said:

This will sound like the 'Judd's Grandmother' days, but he's 100% moving back to Melbourne to be closer to family and has informed GC. Unfortunately he's tossing up between Tigers and Kangas. Guessing money is a key factor, but not sure. Perhaps inside mid isn't one of our key priorities and with his injury history we're focusing our attention elsewhere? 
 

Source - his sister

His sister is wrong. North Melbourne is not even in the equation. Richmond is throwing cash at him and so are North, but he won't consider the Roos. He has no intention of going there. Melbourne has a far, FAR better chance than North.

Source: Someone in a better position than his sister (yes, there is someone in a better position than his sister). 

Edited May 27, 2016 by praha

[dazzledavey36 55,456]

20 minutes ago, adsy said:

This will sound like the 'Judd's Grandmother' days, but he's 100% moving back to Melbourne to be closer to family and has informed GC. Unfortunately he's tossing up between Tigers and Kangas. Guessing money is a key factor, but not sure. Perhaps inside mid isn't one of our key priorities and with his injury history we're focusing our attention elsewhere? 
 

Source - his sister

Your record in the past has been poor.

Next.

[mo64 5,881]

10 minutes ago, praha said:

His sister is wrong. North Melbourne is not even in the equation. Richmond is throwing cash at him and so are North, but he won't consider the Roos. He has no intention of going there. Melbourne has a far, FAR better chance than North.

Source: Someone in a better position than his sister (yes, there is someone in a better position than his sister). 

Judd's grandmother?

[Meggs 598]

I can't imagine footballers 'tossing up' teams.   Most have a single destination in mind and work towards it.  

I know a recruiter who was at and at Hirdy to take DP but James had set his sights on Dyson.  Both great players and it would be fabulous if Dion wanted to join our resurgence.

[Ethan Tremblay 31,168]

2 minutes ago, Meggs said:

I can't imagine footballers 'tossing up' teams.   Most have a single destination in mind and work towards it.  

I know a recruiter who was at and at Hirdy to take DP but James had set his sights on Dyson.  Both great players and it would be fabulous if Dion wanted to join our resurgence.

Sounds like something he'd like.

Edited May 27, 2016 by Ethan Tremblay

[binman 44,196]

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Fairly ambiguous, this 'can never have enough A-grade mids' talk.

For example, take Priddis. He is A-grade, but it's fairly obvious that you can't have too many pure inside players who are one-paced and one-sided. 

Tyson is the equivalent for us who may well become an A-grade insider in time.. However he can almost only play through the midfield as an inside mid. 

Not that it's news to posters. 

A-grade mids with attributes that our list are in need of is specifically what we're after.

And I'd say that those attributes are class, foot-skills and pace. 

Dion has the capacity to play positions outside of the 'inside-mid' role because he possesses some diverse attributes. Obviously, he'd be handy. 

Everytime we come up against players like Dahlhaus and Steven, I think to myself 'they're the players we are missing through our midfield'.

Classy users and line-breaking ability.

I reckon if Prestia came to us, he'd be used much more on the outside given our strength inside the contest. He has break-away pace, and a great kick.

I see what you're  saying and you make a reasonable point.  But A grade  mids are worth their weight in gold and rarely are purely  outside or inside.

 Priddis and mitchell are perhaps the exception who prove the rule. But even those two are so clever and work so hard that they are way more than pure inside mids.

By the by i dont consider dalhaus or stevens to be A grade (yet )

[mo64 5,881]

5 hours ago, Grand New Flag said:

My understanding is Dion will choose us. Hogan will re-sign along with McDonald.  We are unlikely to lose regular 22 by choice.  

 

GNF, I really appreciate your contributions, but I'm getting the impression that your source is merely relaying things from the club's perspective, and their beliefs may not be shared by all parties involved. Just as GWS thought they had Franklin and Richmond thought they had Treloar, we may think we have Prestia, and we also may think that Hogan will re-sign.

I hope you are right will all your info, but I wouldn't be putting the champagne on ice just yet.