Post Match Discussion - Round 16

[Dockett 32 1,213]

Get a second forward target into the side. ASAP ie Fitzpatrick. If not good enough , get rid of him, he was suposed to kick on this year. When are we expected to see something from this bloke? Bloody amazing, we still keep looking at midgets to save us and we kick 4 goals. How would you assess the performance of our forward half? Sort the bloody front half out and tell them we expect a few goals from them . Bloody ridicoulus.

Bail nup. Jordie nup.

[Bitter but optimistic 21,580]

I take a couple of weeks well deserved holiday and everything goes to [censored]!

[DeeZee 6,910]

We try, but we severely lack top end talent.

We don't have anyone as good as a Fyfe or even a Ballantyne.

Grimes wont be captain next year.

[Dockett 32 1,213]

Who coaches the forwards? In case you weren'tx watching 4 goals. Fantastic! Good work.

[bing181 8,357]

Who coaches the forwards? In case you weren'tx watching 4 goals. Fantastic! Good work.

Yep, all the coaches' faults.

[Binmans PA 26,728]

You win a prize for being the first one. Congratulations.

How can people keep defending his efforts though? Easily the worst captain in the league. His kicking and decision making has not improved one iota. It's embarrassing. In fact, I'd say his game has stagnated or gone backwards. Ever since Roos has started to implement a slightly more attacking flair into our game, his kicking and decision making has been consistently shown up as not good enough for this level.

Roos will probably delist Terlich again too. I'd love to know why he delisted him last time. I wonder if it was his horrible decision making and kicking?

I'm disappointed, but it merely continues to highlight the guys that won't make it. I'm at that point in the season now that I can't wait for the off season, which is perhaps the most disappointing thing. I'm looking forward to seeing how Roos and co turn over the list though. I wonder how ruthless they'll be. Will it be upward to 12 again? Quite easily.

I actually think our midfield is slowly getting there. As we all know though, those that are out there, need reinforcements. At least, another two. Jamar's tap work is regressing again though and Gawn's tap work is solid, but he is a liability up forward. He's a giant and he rarely takes contested marks on undersized opponents. He needs to learn to use his body. Roos and co can only do so much, if our ruckmen can't influence the game enough to give our mids first use.

[stuie 7,374]

Does anyone think we will ever make the finals as long as we are playing home games in Darwin?

We need to be playing Freo (and anyone else) at the MCG

Im not saying tonights result would have been different, theyd have flogged us at the MCG too, but for a team that needs to win desperately after years of losing we need to give ourselves have the best chance to win. We cant be playing home games at neutral venues. Same with Alice Springs

2 games lost to the MCG and played in the Northern Territory

but for a team that needs to earn desperately after years of losing money we need to give ourselves have the best chance to make money

[Binmans PA 26,728]

2 clangers. I know stats can be misleading and/or ambiguous, but that one is well defined. I know Jack isn't the greatest user of the ball and I won't even say he's not symptomatic of our problems, but it makes my blood boil when week after week, in games when more than half the oppositions scores comes from turnovers, Jack Grimes mistakes seem to be the only ones people remember.

Dom Tyson (who I am a huge, huge fan of) had 5 and currently ranked equal sixth in the competition for total clangers. I bet I'm the last person to mention him in this thread. But he doesn't have number 31 on his back or a © next to his name, so his don't matter.

Tyson's played 28 games. Grimes has played 83 games and yes, when you have © next to your name, more should be expected of you. Further, when you get the ball more, there's a higher chance you'll turn it over more.

When your captain is the one making horrible decisions (and it's not just his clangers - it's his ability to consistently putting team mates under pressure with dumb football), it must deflating for the rest of the team. That's not leadership. That's the opposite, IMO. He might be a great professional off the field, but he has severe limitations on the field.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

I'd suggest that we aren't going to be drafting many people who can't kick.

We drafted James Strauss.

[Binmans PA 26,728]

Who coaches the forwards? In case you weren'tx watching 4 goals. Fantastic! Good work.

Bigger picture. Horrible kicking didn't help, but goals from midfield is where it's at. You could argue, we had one goal from midfield - Bail's. He was playing in the forwardline though, so really not one of our mids could hit the scoreboard in a meaningful way and we couldn't get a spread of goal kickers in there.

When you lose by that much you can't really make excuses but I always wonder if things would turn out differently if we took our chances when they are presented. Half way through the second quarter we should have been on top if we had taken our chances. We dominated general play in the first quarter but couldn't convert while Freo did not look switched on at all - Freo controlled the start of the second but we worked back in to it but again couldn't convert easy shots from Grimes and Dawes. The last 5 or so minutes of the second quarter we were outplayed and they converted a couple of shots which took the lead out to 5 goals at 1/2 time. The 3rd quarter we were abysmal and by then it's over.

But if we take our chances early get our tails up and put some scoreboard pressure on the opposition I reckon the game would unfold a little differently. We may not win but we'll at least be in the game.

By the way did anyone else think we should've got a free for a deliberate rushed behind in the second when they kicked backwards frokm about 40 out and it rolled through untouched for a point? I just assumed they would pay it and was shocked when they didn't especially after we copped the dodgiest one last week. My dad said yeah but he was trying to kick to his teammate" but surely that shouldn't matter in a circumstance like that where he has kicked backwards from about 40 out and it rolls through without being touched?

It's a good point, mate. We didn't put enough scoreboard pressure on them. So when Freo were looking switched off early on, we needed to make it count then. Who knows what happens then. It's an incredibly obvious point, but we will know when things have turn, when we are consistently placing scoreboard pressure on our opponents.

I thought for the first 55 minutes our effort was really good, in fact at times I thought we looked the better side. If Dawes had nailed the two sitters he missed we would have been level in the second quarter.

Then up stepped the skipper and missed the unmissable from 10 metres out on a slight angle. Absolutely horrendous miss from the leader of the club. Instead of being deservedly level, we then dropped our heads and conceded three late goals to blow the margin out at half time and all but end the contest.

In a low-scoring defensive scrap you MUST take your chances.

Our third quarter was horrendous though. You could just see the effort drop away, which was really disappointing. All of a sudden they started dominating contested footy and running around on their own. Interestingly for 85 minutes of the game we conceded only five goals, but in 35 minutes (last five of the second and all of the third) we conceded 10 goals. I accept though that the last quarter they took the foot off the pedal, but for all but the last five minutes of the first half we were in it.

At the end of the day we just have too many battlers - triers who just lack class and ability. It means there are patches of games where you compete and try really hard, but ultimately you just undo your hard work with turnovers and a failure to convert opportunities up forward. Also difficult when your most talented ball user and creator has less impact on the contest than some of the spectators. I think Ben Dixon may have had more touches than Watts tonight.

A last mention to the selectors. Seriously, what the hell was that about. We already made the mistake of going too tall against the Pies, and we go and do it again. Two specialist ruckmen in Darwin against a hard running side? Four key defenders against a forward line containing one key forward and a resting ruckman? We already have a weak midfield and instead of supporting that with more run we go in with a plethora of talls. Playing Gawn was a massive error - while he shows great potential as a future no.1 ruckman he should not play in the same team as Jamar. And McKenzie on Daniel Pearce, who is probably their sixth or seventh best midfielder - I don't know why you would bother tagging him.

A really forgettable night all round.

I think it's more about who is available and pushing for selection in the VFL. There's nothing. That has to be it, doesn't it? They don't want to gift games to guys in the VFL, but ironically they're having to gift games to a number of players who should be resting. Our depth is non existent. In an ideal world, you wouldn't be playing Salem, Tyson or Viney every week. Tyson needs a rest and Salem has struggled for a number of weeks now. The positive thing, I guess, is that Salem is getting a chance to build his engine with AFL game time. With ball in hand, he's already shown us that he is a wonderfully creative and dangerous player, particularly inside forward fifty. Given the lack of reinforcements, I can understand why the FD keeps playing him every week though.

Has Watts ever had a good game in Darwin?

Yeah, I remember him playing a dominant game against Port a season or two ago.

Edited July 5, 2014 by AdamFarr

[Undeeterred 2,908]

I think that at some point not 'gifting' games becomes silly when clearly some blokes need a rest.

We've hit a major wall and there's absolutely nothing wrong with giving Salem, Viney and others a rest if they need one. That's not dropping people, it's resting them. That gives you the opportunity to bring in Blease, Tapscott etc without obviously 'gifting' them games.

In my view, the last few weeks has really shown up the Roos strategy. We're way too tall, and we're leaving guys like JKH and Toumpas to rot at Casey, which is giving them absolutely nothing. Why not recognise their efforts and get them back in as rotation for blokes who are knackered?

And as for going in with all of Jamar, Gawn, Garland, Dawes, Frawley, Pedersen, McDonald and Dunn in slippery conditions against a hard running team - puh-leese.

[rjay 24,193]

Anyone still think we have a good list?

Anyone think we are about to do a Port?

Same old VFL standard players who have not been good enough for three years now.

The AFL 'old dee', they didn't give us a PP.

We should get one this year if they are serious about evening up the competition. It's sides like us that have born the brunt of the 2 new teams coming into the comp. That along with totally inept people running the club in the past has us where we are today.

Roos can only do so much with this list, he's made a start but losing Clark then Hogan for most of the year hasn't helped. We need a serious injection of talent. The results at Casey are a good indication. People calling for changes, well who are you going to bring in? there is no one there worth a game.

[beelzebub 22,724]

I'd suggest that we aren't going to be drafting many people who can't kick.

you never ever should. A game called football requires players able to kick. Not elite basketcases..athletic runts nor any shying of a contest.

Fundamental building blocks eschewed for far too long.

Edited July 5, 2014 by beelzebub

[beelzebub 22,724]

Anyone still think we have a good list?

Anyone think we are about to do a Port?

Same old VFL standard players who have not been good enough for three years now.

nupp

Havent for a long while

25% list is vfl grade only...another 25% ebb and flow but inherent poor deciders. 50% keepers.

[Matt Demon 1,389]

Because a long work improves skill?

I thought the long walk turns you fat and makes you burn gum leaves whilst trying to play guitar?

[Demonland 66,962]

NATURAL SELECTION by The Oracle

Melbourne's third venture for the year into the Northern Territory has again ended in pain.

All three matches, starting with a NAB Challenge game against Geelong in Alice Springs on 28 February and finishing with the Round 16 fixture against Fremantle in Darwin were defeats. The first saw an injury to key forward hopeful Jesse Hogan that severely curtailed the start of what is hoped to be a stellar career, the second (against Port Adelaide) showed hope of brighter things to come and the third was a major reality check that demonstrated how far the club must go to reach the dream of a finals appearance.

Fittingly, in a place named after the great English naturalist whose evolutionary theory gave rise to the phrase "survival of the fittest", the two combatants, Melbourne and Fremantle played out their game as a demonstration of Darwinian theory.

It doesn't really matter if the coach is Mark Neeld, Paul Roos or Ross Lyon. The rigours of learning the defensive style can be strength sapping from both a physical and mental perspective. The stronger, more experienced and classier sides will wear the other down and once that other's energy reserves are low it will pounce, strike and cut it down mercilessly as we saw with Fremantle. In this game, Melbourne barely lasted a quarter and a half.

Last year's grand finallist has grasped the importance of finishing high in the top four and the previous evening's result with Hawthorn saw the doors open. Even without Pavlich and Hill, the Dockers were never going to let the opportunity out of their grasp.

And, in the broader meaning of the word "fittest" (which covers more than simply the physical sense but all attributes required to be successful in the sport), that is exactly what they were - the fittest.

So they wore the Demons out in the first half and crushed them in the second. The lesson for Melbourne is that having wasted substantial and significant opportunities in drafting and trading over the past decade, it needs to be right on the mark when the next round takes place. The defence looks solid but will possibly lose one of its number soon, the midfield is improving but still has a way to go and the forward line ... well, just take a look at the scoreboard.

At least one third to one half of the current list fails to come up to the standard by which we require players to be defined as "the fittest". The club must discover and develop its own species like Nathan Fyfes if it is to find its way to the top echelons and therefore many on the current list be be gone before the Demons next challenge for a finals berth.

Melbourne0.2.2 1.5.11 3.7.25 4.10.34

Fremantle 2.1.13 6.3.39 13.5.83 15.7.97

Goals

Melbourne Bail Dawes Jamar Kent

Fremantle Ballantyne 3 Clarke Mzungu D Pearce 2 Barlow Mayne Neale Sandilands Suban Sutcliffe

Best

Melbourne McDonald M Jones Vince N Jones Tyson Frawley

Fremantle Fyfe Barlow Neale Ibbotson Muzungu Suban

Injuries

Melbourne Nil

Fremantle Clancee Pearce

Changes

Melbourne Nil

Fremantle Matthew Pavlich by Michael Apeness

Reports

Melbourne Nil

Fremantle Nil

Umpires Jeff Dalgleish, Dean Margetts, Jordan Bannister.

Crowd 9,290 at TIO Stadium Darwin

[Axis of Bob 10,500]

How can people keep defending his efforts though? Easily the worst captain in the league.

I will defend his efforts. He is one player whose effort is consistently excellent.

His skill level is not, but that's got nothing to do with his effort.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Axis of Bob

[Lucifers Hero 37,524]

Tyson's played 28 games. Grimes has played 83 games and yes, when you have © next to your name, more should be expected of you. Further, when you get the ball more, there's a higher chance you'll turn it over more.

When your captain is the one making horrible decisions (and it's not just his clangers - it's his ability to consistently putting team mates under pressure with dumb football), it must deflating for the rest of the team. That's not leadership. That's the opposite, IMO. He might be a great professional off the field, but he has severe limitations on the field.

Grimes won't be dropped as captain...would give the worst possible message to the team. But maybe we should take the do-no-harm approach so put him in the forward pocket as a 'defensive' forward so his mistakes don't hurt us so much. His role could be something like 'keep a good defender away from the contest' and get the ball to a team mate to take the kick for goal.

[Nasher 33,246]

How can people keep defending his efforts though?

I'm not attempting to defend his 'efforts' - though as AoB rightly says above, it's not effort that the issue, it's skill. I recognise that he makes too many mistakes. I see that that miss last night hurt the team.

What I don't agree with is the way he gets singled out. I raised the Tyson point not to single out Tyson, but to make the point that there are many others who make terrible mistakes, none of whom get raised on here. What about Bernie? He's made several really bad kicks out of defence in recent weeks that have directly resulted in opposition goals. Again - nothing gets said. Only the Grimes errors are discussed.

As for being a terrible captain - he's been 'voted' in by his peers for three consecutive years and endorsed by two different coaches, at least one of whom clearly knows a bit or two about leadership. The club must think he does something right.

[beelzebub 22,724]

The football dept need to take on a mercenary demeanour and be rather ruthless and if need be merciless in attitude towards our list.

Some objected to my turn of phrase , Cull, in reference to how the playing group must be 'revised' and so i'll say it again. It needs culling. There are players who just are either just not up to it or just dont deliver what they have. If this is them, if they are incapable of stepping up then what do I care of so called sensitivity. Its a business. Those that can...stay...those that can't get rid of. Trade them delist them Im not fussed. Those that show intent but lack polish keep and improve but we're a team of far too many NQRS. We'll get nowhere while we are. Doesn't matter who the coach is.

Cmon FD...get serious.

[dees189227 11,308]

Among the skill errors, Roos lamented two set shots missed by Chris Dawes and co-captain Jack Grimes in the second quarter that would have put the Dees ahead.

"You have to take your chances, you can't miss goals from the top of the goal square," he said.

"At one stage it should have been three-all. Dawes misses, Grimes misses and it's three-all and mentally you're still in the game.

"You miss them and it's six (goals to) one at half-time."

Melbourne only booted four goals but Roos thought the match was far from the Demons' worst performance for the year.

"Oh, no, no, not by a long way. I think for us, we got a lesson from a really good team," he said.

"They're a Grand Final team from last year and we're a 17th team from last year.

"They're such a difficult team to beat. We constantly see them, they're just such a competitive team and they do the basic things well.

"They're going to be there at the end of the year, right in the thick of it."

Paul Roos sums it up for me right in that passage.

[beelzebub 22,724]

We need players who can finish not who ARE finished.

What is scary is the exercise of listing those players who can be relied upon to dispose and/or deliver a ball cleanly and to advantage.

Short list

Edited July 5, 2014 by beelzebub

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Of course missed opportunities in front of goal don't help but look at our inside 50 numbers.

Again, absolutely shocking which says that we constantly butcher the ball in our backline and midfield.

That's where the problem is. We just don't have quality decision makers or ball users.

[jackaub 1,402]

Week in, week out, it's the poor decisions and turnovers that are killing us.

Hard to see where to go in the short term, hard skills to teach outside of actual games.

We have dumb footballers in the main. Guys like Grimes et al continually make poor decisions and it costs us dearly Also take the opportunity Grimes 15 metres out easy kick would put us 1 goal behind he misses they kick 3 easy ones and we are down 30 at half time The team looked beaten from that time on.We definitly need more class

[robbiefrom13 877]

maybe we have to play Strauss. If he only gets four kicks, but they are not turnovers and they do reach one of our forwards, maybe that is an improvement.

And, in the annual report, the loss of Clark and Hogan surely has got to be the over-riding story of the year. That was a very cruel blow, when - as Roos says - everything needed to go right.