Latest murmurings of a crazy time

[olisik 4,060]

3, 14, 27 and 48 for Viney, Hogan, Dawes, Barry and 63 is good work IMO - I wouldn't change a thing.

I would, I would rather

Pick 3, Hogan, Pick 13, Viney, Dawes (For Martin/other rejects), Barry and 63

[binman 39,225]

3, 14, 27 and 48 for Viney, Hogan, Dawes, Barry and 63 is good work IMO - I wouldn't change a thing.

Yep i agree. I also agree with DemonWA. Relying on the trade system to get us up the ladder has hardly been a raging success for us.

[deejammin' 2,096]

I would, I would rather

Pick 3, Hogan, Pick 13, Viney, Dawes (For Martin/other rejects), Barry and 63

Fine, looks like its my turn to bite on one of your posts.

1. That would now be pick 14,

2. Your order could never have happened that way as GC or GWS would have bid on Viney

3. There's no guarentee that GC or GWS having had us refuse to deal on a Viney bid would have offered Barry at all, and its possible they may have considered other offers on Hogan.

Best case scenario in your world:

Viney (Pick 3), Hogan (Pick 4), Pick 14, 26 (would probably not been enough for Dawes as the Bulldogs would offer 21 (now 22))

I'll take what the footy department has done any day!

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Neither would I, eerything worked out perfectly in my eyes.

Hogan is a monumental get, pick 3 definitely worth it because ready to go FF like that are rare!

Don't know how to please them, luckily I don't care. We plugged major holes with our picks and at the end of the day that is what drafting is all about.

I like how they usually brush over the fact that we managed to "convince" them to take Viney at 26, they don't give that enough credit. The fact that we had to play along and that netted us HOgan and Barry for 3 and the difference between 14 and 20 (no big deal) is not what I would call us being screwed over. Remember we were into Barry, I would be more skeptical if they said "take Barry"- we wanted him and he does look good so with confidence in Neeld's vision it's a win every trade week of the year.

If we can get Pedo and Ray we have a superior team in structure and work rate than the rabble that ran out last year and that is what matters. In this game you get better or you sink and die, and that is just a straight up fact!

[olisik 4,060]

Fine, looks like its my turn to bite on one of your posts.

1. That would now be pick 14,

OK

2. Your order could never have happened that way as GC or GWS would have bid on Viney

Proof of that? Source?

3. There's no guarentee that GC or GWS having had us refuse to deal on a Viney bid would have offered Barry at all, and its possible they may have considered other offers on Hogan.

We would've used 45 on Barry (Or someone similar) which was where he was expected to go

Best case scenario in your world:

Viney (Pick 3), Hogan (Pick 4), Pick 14, 26 (would probably not been enough for Dawes as the Bulldogs would offer 21 (now 22))

I'll take what the footy department has done any day!

Best scenario is Toumpas (Pick 3), Hogan (Pick 4), Kennedy (Pick 14) , Viney (27) , Dawes (For Martin/other rejects), Barry (Pick 45)

Net-gain their is + Kennedy

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Plus they are saying you don't give up high draft picks for older players- WRONG- early picks were given up for young prospects you silly boy- we still have 4. Viney, 4, Hogan and Barry isn't enough young talent for one draft? Seriously??

[GrandOld 367]

Mooney would be lucky if he could spell his own name let alone give "special comments" on any teams drafting strategy .

[Robbie57 1,996]

I think Mooney is usually pretty thoughtful and his view is a valid one.

That said its not the only view.

I agree that it is really important we win a few more matches or we will lose players like frawley out of frustration.

What I like about our approach is its clear the FD has has some achievable objectives in mind and made it happen.

That gives supporters confidence but must give the players especially the new recruits some real belief that the FD has a clear achievable plan.

[The Lobster Effect 845]

Mooney would be lucky if he could spell his own name let alone give "special comments" on any teams drafting strategy .

Yup the goons on afl trade radio aren't the greatest fans of the dees trade period!

[deejammin' 2,096]

With regards to bidding on Viney my source is the numerous members of the press and football community that agree that for Viney to slip to 26(7) involved a 3 way deal between GWS, GC and MFC involving Hogan, Barry, Martin and many draft picks. You suggest we offer 4 for Hogan, which gives our FD so little credence, there is no way we didn't offer 4 first as part of that 3 way deal, it obviously wasn't enough, and in that deal if we insult one of the other 2 they bid on Viney. This is widely known in the greater football community, if you wish to deny it, do so, it says more about you than anything else.

Many Phantom drafts had Barry going in the 30s, there is no guarantee he would have got to that pick. In my view it is unlikely.

Collingwood would never have excepted Martin or one of our "rejects" as you call them over Bulldogs pick 22 and a swap of later picks, which is what they offered. The only way we get Dawes in your scenario is to trade pick 14, which negates your net gain, makes Barry far more risky, potentially has us taking Viney at 3 when GWS and GC rejected the offer of pick 4 as part of the Viney deal.

Your scenario to me sees us potentially losing Hogan, taking Viney at 3, not getting Barry, either not getting Dawes or taking him with pick 14 and has us taking far more risks on getting the type of players we want in the draft.

[jackaub 1,402]

but he's going to have a break-out season next year

\

Oh Yeah!!!!!! Cant wait for that

[olisik 4,060]

With regards to bidding on Viney my source is the numerous members of the press and football community that agree that for Viney to slip to 26(7) involved a 3 way deal between GWS, GC and MFC involving Hogan, Barry, Martin and many draft picks. You suggest we offer 4 for Hogan, which gives our FD so little credence, there is no way we didn't offer 4 first as part of that 3 way deal, it obviously wasn't enough, and in that deal if we insult one of the other 2 they bid on Viney. This is widely known in the greater football community, if you wish to deny it, do so, it says more about you than anything else.

Many Phantom drafts had Barry going in the 30s, there is no guarantee he would have got to that pick. In my view it is unlikely.

Collingwood would never have excepted Martin or one of our "rejects" as you call them over Bulldogs pick 22 and a swap of later picks, which is what they offered. The only way we get Dawes in your scenario is to trade pick 14, which negates your net gain, makes Barry far more risky, potentially has us taking Viney at 3 when GWS and GC rejected the offer of pick 4 as part of the Viney deal.

Your scenario to me sees us potentially losing Hogan, taking Viney at 3, not getting Barry, either not getting Dawes or taking him with pick 14 and has us taking far more risks on getting the type of players we want in the draft.

So your saying that numerous sources have agreed that we draft tampered? As that is what a deal to take Viney 2nd rounder would have been.

Opposed to them passing because he was not worth a pick #1 or #2 as the Jack Martins, Lachie Whitfields and Brodie Grundys were rated higher.

Edited October 22, 2012 by olisik

[PaulRB 6,048]

At the end of the day the result the FD delivered was awesome, and while there are fantasy scenarios that could have been slightly better, there were more scenarios that were much worse, namely: JV for pick 3. So credit where it is due, the the FD did good.

[binman 39,225]

Plus they are saying you don't give up high draft picks for older players- WRONG- early picks were given up for young prospects you silly boy- we still have 4. Viney, 4, Hogan and Barry isn't enough young talent for one draft? Seriously??

And as i noted Dawes is only 24 - which for a big fella is really the time he is likely to start hitting his straps. If he improves fro this point in his career (which is likley) we are the getting the best years of him with Collingwood having had to do all the development (with the investment that entails).

One other thing. Having Hogan in our system for a full year adds incredible value to him as a draft pick. If we had taken the punt and were luck enough to get him next year he would have missed the first month or so of pre season and would have been dealing with the interstate move and all the associated issues.

Instead we will have a young gun, ready to go round one and be third tall, surrounded by two big men hitting their physical prime. He will have settled in Melbourne, know all his team mates and the system and have a year of Misson polish. I don't think any of the so called experts, or at the least the ones i've heard have acknowledged how beneficial that will be for us.

Nor has there been much comment on the fact Neeld is trying to build a system and is bringing in players specifically to play roles, fit the system and provide role models (that a young 18 year old, no matter how good, is going to be able to provide)

[deejammin' 2,096]

So your saying that numerous sources have agreed that we draft tampered? As that is what a deal to take Viney 2nd rounder would have been.

Opposed to them passing because he was not worth a pick #1 or #2 as the Jack Martins, Lachie Whitfields and Brodie Grundys were rated higher.

Read this article by one of the most respected post-season and draft analysts in the Age:

Three win in mini-draft

It is not tampering, it is within the rules, it is smart, and it worked out for every party involved. QED

[reynolds46 823]

On AFL trade radio just now (in the 2 mins i grabbed before it dropped out again!) Mooney was very critical of our approach to trading this year, basically saying we had got spooked and gave way too much away. Said we should not have traded away number 3, 13 and 20 (though did acknowledge Viney going thru to second round was part of the deal so i'm not quite sure how he comes to his conclusion) and instead should have used those picks to build for the future rather than a short term fix. Wallace didn't disagree.

Its funny the different perspectives you get. I'm rapt with how things have gone so far. Hogan is certainly a punt, but contradicting Mooney's view is a punt for the future. Dawes is still young so he is both helping us now but also perhaps for the next 6-7 years or so. He didn't mention Barry - if he becomes a regular best 22 player people will reassess this trade quite significantly.

I also think he underestimates the importance of having some more wins next year. Bottoming out and going thorough seasons of losing is a huge risk and really damage a club IMO. I reckon GWS and GC will struggle to overcome this.

We have been down way too long and for the club to to move forward needs wins next year to allow the fans and players to see teh light at the end of the tunnel

Mooney says its a change of approach from Neelds first year which focused on youth. Not sure what he is refering to. Last year we went after Mitch Clark as a priority in a compromised draft (GWS dominated)

[daisycutter 28,709]

So your saying that numerous sources have agreed that we draft tampered? As that is what a deal to take Viney 2nd rounder would have been.

Opposed to them passing because he was not worth a pick #1 or #2 as the Jack Martins, Lachie Whitfields and Brodie Grundys were rated higher.

you can't draft tamper when your co-conspirators are the love-child franchises of the AFL

[DemonWA 3,579]

heard rumours that Gysberts has completed medicals at both Geelong & Essendon?

[Biffen 12,450]

heard rumours that Gysberts has completed medicals at both Geelong & Essendon?

That means hes going nowhere.

DO your best with this bony boy Weapon!!!

[45HG 1,539]

heard rumours that Gysberts has completed medicals at both Geelong & Essendon?

He'll be busy next year, then!

[rpfc 27,662]

Osilik - I think it is patently obvious that GWS put the hard word on GC and said - If you want Martin for Pick 2 it would be appreciated if you don't eff around with Melbourne who are keen to give us Pick 3 for Hogan.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

I would, I would rather

Pick 3, Hogan, Pick 13, Viney, Dawes (For Martin/other rejects), Barry and 63

That is not possible though mate, you cant just get what you want even though i wish we could have

[wattsup 470]

pick 49 and bennel to saints for ray is being reported at moment

reported on facebook trades site there usually pretty good with there info

Edited October 22, 2012 by wattsup

[Hannibal 5,814]

pick 49 and bennel to saints for ray is being reported at moment

Where ?

i wish when people posted such rumours, or information they'd also include where they saw or heard it.

[picket fence 15,698]

Bulltish, what a ridiculous trade, if Saints go with this they need a change of coach and Match Commitee!

Cheez I wonder about this sometimes.!