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On 9/16/2023 at 3:23 AM, Demon Dynasty said:

That should've happened last year.

Instead we went after a post injury (no longer AA) Grundy

Terrible decision and not said in hindsight.  Disliked it from day 1

A waste of a list space and ultimately an entire season of experimenting "in the hope that he might solve this or that"....

The club also seriously needs a decent sports psychologist.

It STILL doesn't get up and win often enough when the expectations are high or in big games facing a pretty hostile crowd.

It's either a soft underbelly and/or poor coaching / game style as witnessed by four consecutive losses in finals at the G.  Possibly a bit of both!

We are STILL also a very ordinary team in wet or greasy conditions.  That needs fixing in the off season... not ignoring and continuing on as if all is fine.

We also traded out or watched on as most of our speedy players left the club which resulted in a pretty sluggish  team (foot speed to get the pill to the outside or get to the loose ball/oppo on the outside) become even more bogged down and sluggish.  THIS ONE WAS SUPER COSTLY IMHO and now needs solving as it has impacted any ability we had to transistion the ball with speed into the 50 and give our forwards a fighting chance more often.  Hunt was a big part of our 2021 success in this area prior to his unfortunate injury which was covered off by the intercept work & clever ball use of Bowey during finals.

Having said that we were certainly cruelled up forward with injuries in the second half and you always need some luck in this regard to get through to a PF let alone a GF.  However that does not explain away four losses on the trot.

Yeah we fuggd up getting Grundy instead of a Key Forward.

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1 hour ago, adonski said:

We could partially correct it by playing Kozzie in the midfield for more than 28 seconds per game. Or experimenting with Salem or even Bowey through the midfield should they feel adventurous.

With Jordon in the team there was no excuse to not play Kozzy through the middle for significant minutes.

Another example of how badly managed the entire match was.

In fact it couldn't have been more badly managed.  Complete amature hour from the FD in this one.

If it was 2018 i'd kind of get it.  But not 7 years in.

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23 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

This is true mono but there continue to be aspects that need reviewing.

Aready posted on this so i wont bore ppl with details again.

In summary...

Forward craft 👉🏼 generally putrid

Mid to forward connection 👉🏼 crappola

3 minute play book 👉🏼 do we have one?  If not why wasn't it implemented on Friday?

CB losses against the better clubs 👉🏼 alarming at times.  Why?  Costing us goals, momentum and matches on occasions imv

Use of sub 👉🏼  Often questionable eg;  Spargo in one match, Schache debacle on Friday

Wet / greasy weather play book 👉🏼 Lost most or all of these matches in 2023.  What's going on?

Our biggest issues are mid/forward connection, forward craft / conversion,  lack of speed on the outside and too slow / poor skills in transition

Partly solved by better list management / draft and trades.

Mid / forward issues who knows.  Look to get in a gun mid/forward coach that takes them both on and brings them together as one!

Would need to be a cracker jack coach who has had experience and a gun in both areas of the field.  For me that would be Ablett Jnr.

Crappola 😂 I had to laugh at this one. One of my Mum's favourite descriptive words.

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2 hours ago, bing181 said:

Another in the series we need more players who are reliable kicks (dont entirely agree with the comparison, but still ...):

 

Why don't you 'entirely' agree with the comparison? 

Because Toby plays more time forward and would have more shots under less pressure? 

That's the only reason I can think of. 

Aside from that, it's something I've continued to bring up but get the same responses back from the same nuffs. Can't point out anything negative about a Melbourne player remember. 

Oliver, Viney, Trac, Langdon are all big contributors to our forward entry woes.. 

And the FD continue to ignore. 

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On 9/15/2023 at 5:28 PM, Deemania since 56 said:

He really has developed some players; he really has ignored some players. His message is obviously unclear and has been for quite a few years. We need pace all over the ground and vastly improved foot skills. We need plans to apply the forward craft, multiple plans, adaptive players, team cohesion instead of low percentage forward entries, ad nauseum. We need a new coach capable of thinking outside the square who develops varied game plans that fully exploit our talents.

Well guess we are stuck with Goodwin for now but maybe we will get some changes in the coaching panel for 2024 with Yze to get the Richmond job I reckon. In fairness to Goodwin you and I are not in the "inner circle" and frankly I will tend to leave decisions that we think are fair and reasonable to the experts for now.

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4 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

With Jordon in the team there was no excuse to not play Kozzy through the middle for significant minutes.

Another example of how badly managed the entire match was.

In fact it couldn't have been more badly managed.  Complete amature hour from the FD in this one.

If it was 2018 i'd kind of get it.  But not 7 years in.

That's all a bit harsh considering "experts" are paid more than you and me to coach a team. Frankly I will leave decisions like this to those that know better. But thanks for your views....

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On 9/16/2023 at 10:45 PM, Watson11 said:

Our really important players all played. Against the blues 3 games ago Melk and JVR didn’t kick a goal between them from 6 and 7 disposals, so how can we claim their absence was the reason we lost when Smith kicked 3? And Petty needs a full season up forward.  He had one and a half good games up forward this season, so no history to give you confidence he would deliver in finals. We can agree to disagree.  

 

I will disagree as no 2 games are alike.

Team games are all about on the day and taking  your chances. And the team dynamics etc. 

You can't say for sure ( although you are claiming ) that we were missing players who had no role in the previous game. Yes but this doesn't take into account a defensive player tagging another for no goals for Instance. 
Based on goals scored Melky and JVR were more likely to score than others.

Melky got some goals last year to get us over the line also.

Your assessment is too simplistic As the more class that plays puts more pressure on the opposition.

in addition we had Fritsch back who is our most reliable goal scorer. It's all about the team pressure and we scored 9.17  that's 26 shots to 8.8 their only 16 shots.in Round 22. Most results would also favour a side with 26 to 18 shots any time. 

We were unluckier last Friday than in Round 22 or more wasteful. You could say. 

In addition that Round 22 was an outlier with Melky as he was in a purple patch in the last 6/7 Rounds and the Carlton game he didn't score a goal ! 

Smithy bobbed up with 3 to replace him in the Semi but to also have Jake would have out much more pressure on their defence. 

Really it was our bad forward play even with another 8 shots that we can only blame ourselves. ( not sure how you thought the umpiring was but many Dees fans were disgusted with the umps notably No 22 ).

Unfortunately when we wake  on Sat morning the HeraldSun still  had a Carlton win.  
We have to live with our poor conversion and make some changes to our game plan and perhaps seek some fresh ideas from a new Assistant Forward Coach. It's been a problem for at least 2 years.

So it's one theory you can put forward about personnel but it doesn't overall IMO pass the test let alone the Pub  Test with 8 more scoring shots. 

I will take  that every day of the week on law of averages but still say we would have won if Melky and JVR had played on the balance of the team this season.  That's only my opinion any way. 

Cheers but we  have to get better and stop butchering the ball and be more efficient forward of centre no matter who is playing up front for us. 

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2 hours ago, David-Demon said:

That's all a bit harsh considering "experts" are paid more than you and me to coach a team. Frankly I will leave decisions like this to those that know better. But thanks for your views....

The same experts that have now lost four consecutive winnable finals and didn't park the bus when leading with 3 minutes to go.

Unforgivable.

We can't get over the Pies when they have a small lead from 5 to 10 minutes out at the end of our matches against them lately.

They park the bus early and defend to the death.

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19 minutes ago, 58er said:

We have to live with our poor conversion and make some changes to our game plan and perhaps seek some fresh ideas from a new Assistant Forward Coach. It's been a problem for at least 2 years.

I don't get this argument 58er.

On one hand you're saying it's ok to be spudding up our forward work and expect it to continue ("we have to live with it").

Why do we have to live with it?  Happy to see us squander this list and miss more opportunities at potentially winning a flag while the window is (was??) open.

Yet you're then admitting that after two years we perhaps need an assistant to the forward coach as we've been spudding it up for 2 years.

The responsibility for the mid to forward fiasco doesn't just lie with Stafford either.  Yze is the mid coach. 

Not only are our mids mostly crud with delivery inside 50, we're getting smashed in long periods of games in the middle with one of the great AFL ruckmen of this time playing almost full time in the middle (2nd half of this season).  How is that allowed to continue?

Still astonishes me at how many Mlelb supporters are seemingly satisfied to continue on with consistent sub par performances in these two critical aspects of our game which ate ultimately killing off the chances of another premiership (during this era).

Don't fix it now (ready for 2024) and we may not see another premiership tilt for a decade or more. 

Of all clubs we are one that should be acutely aware of the fall out here.

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7 hours ago, bing181 said:

Another in the series we need more players who are reliable kicks (dont entirely agree with the comparison, but still ...):

 

The Petracca highlighted issue is 100% spot on.

It's been well documented that at the end of 2005/2006 Ablett Jnr had issues with aspects of his game and was asked to address them via their leadership group...

The rest is history.

I would argue we need this honesty and transparency to happen (inside the four walls) with all three of Tracc, Clarry and Viney.

In that video i see a great bull player but one who too often  panics, no composure and just wants to get boot to ball without assessing.  And the ball drop....way too high.  Burning so many players around him as well.   The red mist that Garry so often speaks about.

The window is still open.  But all three need some tweaks to the way they finish with ball in hand if we're to make more of our chances, especially in big games & finals against the best clubs.

Every club is improving each year and no doubt each player, even the already VG to great ones, are always looking at ways to imrprove theirs even late into their careers.  No reason why these three in particular can't try and do the same.

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3 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

I don't get this argument 58er.

On one hand you're saying it's ok to be spudding up our forward work and expect it to continue ("we have to live with it").

Why do we have to live with it?  Happy to see us squander this list and miss more opportunities at potentially winning a flag while the window is (was??) open.

Yet you're then admitting that after two years we perhaps need an assistant to the forward coach as we've been spudding it up for 2 years.

The responsibility for the mid to forward fiasco doesn't just lie with Stafford either.  Yze is the mid coach. 

Not only are our mids mostly crud with delivery inside 50, we're getting smashed in long periods of games in the middle with one of the great AFL ruckmen of this time playing almost full time in the middle (2nd half of this season).  How is that allowed to continue?

Still astonishes me at how many Mlelb supporters are seemingly satisfied to continue on with consistent sub par performances in these two critical aspects of our game which ate ultimately killing off the chances of another premiership (during this era).

Don't fix it now (ready for 2024) and we may not see another premiership tilt for a decade or more. 

Of all clubs we are one that should be acutely aware of the fall out here.

DD thanks for your response.

What I should have said instead we "have to live with it " was that "it's ours  to own and recognise it and take possession." And fix it. 

Regarding blame who is the logical person other than the Forward Coach? He is the appointed Coach fir that area of our footy ( hopefully no longer). You can criticise the Mids coach for poor connectivity but Stafford has to work this out with Ooze if he sees this as a problem. That's another task has to discuss to solve the mess of our forward line. That may or maybe not had been done. If so it's another fail by Stafford.

You could say the whole issue is created by Goody as he wants our forwards to be defenders ie Spargo and ANB to tackle snd defend rather than kick goals!! Which are a bonus!

This emphasis on defence is derailing our footy and forward potential and the main reason for our disconnect and sloppy mess to scoring along with poor accuracy to boot. 

It's a team thing ultimately but someone has to be responsible and if not successful moved on as part of a solution to solve it. No flag until solved!!

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8 minutes ago, Demon Dynasty said:

The Petracca highlighted issue is 100% spot on.

It's been well documented that at the end of 2005/2006 Ablett Jnr had issues with aspects of his game and was asked to address them via their leadership group...

The rest is history.

I would argue we need this honesty and transparency to happen (inside the four walls) with all three of Tracc, Clarry and Viney.

In that video i just see a great bull player but one who too often  panics and just boots the ball.  And the ball drop....way too high.  Burning so many players around him as well. 

The window is still open.  But all three need some tweaks to the way they finish with ball in hand if we're to make more of our chances, especially in big games & finals against the best clubs.

Good work DD. 

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3 minutes ago, 58er said:

DD thanks for your response.

What I should have said instead we "have to live with it " was that "it's ours  to own and recognise it and take possession." And fix it. 

Regarding blame who is the logical person other than the Forward Coach? He is the appointed Coach fir that area of our footy ( hopefully no longer). You can criticise the Mids coach for poor connectivity but Stafford has to work this out with Ooze if he sees this as a problem. That's another task has to discuss to solve the mess of our forward line. That may or maybe not had been done. If so it's another fail by Stafford.

You could say the whole issue is created by Goody as he wants our forwards to be defenders ie Spargo and ANB to tackle snd defend rather than kick goals!! Which are a bonus!

This emphasis on defence is derailing our footy and forward potential and the main reason for our disconnect and sloppy mess to scoring along with poor accuracy to boot. 

It's a team thing ultimately but someone has to be responsible and if not successful moved on as part of a solution to solve it. No flag until solved!!

Yes to moving on Stafford.

No need for an assistant 58er.  Just get some top quality new blood in there.

Ablett Jnr should be on the radar

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36 minutes ago, SPC said:

What needs to happen in 2024……

Viney, Oliver and Trac should never appear in the same midfield together again.. we need some decision making and class. I think Rivers, Salem, Kossie or Bowey need to be that player. 

 

100%

It's infuriating. 

How strange that we seemed to gel better when Oliver was injured for part of the season... I wonder what that was about?

Goodwin needs a slap in the face and we need new coaches to come in and challenge this system and way of playing that keeps us competitive but ultimately, we continue to lose games the same way. 

It's rinse and repeat with Melbourne. Pressure us hard all game and our players get completely caught out due to their lack of composure. Going inside 50 and kicking for goal in open play.

Rinse and repeat.

 

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4 hours ago, 58er said:

I will disagree as no 2 games are alike.

Team games are all about on the day and taking  your chances. And the team dynamics etc. 

You can't say for sure ( although you are claiming ) that we were missing players who had no role in the previous game. Yes but this doesn't take into account a defensive player tagging another for no goals for Instance. 
Based on goals scored Melky and JVR were more likely to score than others.

Melky got some goals last year to get us over the line also.

Your assessment is too simplistic As the more class that plays puts more pressure on the opposition.

in addition we had Fritsch back who is our most reliable goal scorer. It's all about the team pressure and we scored 9.17  that's 26 shots to 8.8 their only 16 shots.in Round 22. Most results would also favour a side with 26 to 18 shots any time. 

We were unluckier last Friday than in Round 22 or more wasteful. You could say. 

In addition that Round 22 was an outlier with Melky as he was in a purple patch in the last 6/7 Rounds and the Carlton game he didn't score a goal ! 

Smithy bobbed up with 3 to replace him in the Semi but to also have Jake would have out much more pressure on their defence. 

Really it was our bad forward play even with another 8 shots that we can only blame ourselves. ( not sure how you thought the umpiring was but many Dees fans were disgusted with the umps notably No 22 ).

Unfortunately when we wake  on Sat morning the HeraldSun still  had a Carlton win.  
We have to live with our poor conversion and make some changes to our game plan and perhaps seek some fresh ideas from a new Assistant Forward Coach. It's been a problem for at least 2 years.

So it's one theory you can put forward about personnel but it doesn't overall IMO pass the test let alone the Pub  Test with 8 more scoring shots. 

I will take  that every day of the week on law of averages but still say we would have won if Melky and JVR had played on the balance of the team this season.  That's only my opinion any way. 

Cheers but we  have to get better and stop butchering the ball and be more efficient forward of centre no matter who is playing up front for us. 

All fair.  But my post was in response to a post where I put our 4 consecutive finals losses down to our atrocious goal kicking and conversion and i50 strategy.  I can cop bad days as it happens.  What I think is unprofessional is players having no goalkicking routine to fall back on under pressure.  Max, Kozzie, Tracc were the super obvious ones that were all over the place in their goal kicking routines.  It’s an afl problem but I don’t care what other teams do just what we do. I always have felt it would cost us in a final. Never dreamed it would cost us 4x in a row. This is the most flat post season feeling ever. Worse than the worst years.  Because we stuffed up and didn’t get beaten by anyone that is better than us.

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13 hours ago, BW511 said:

For all those wondering why we constantly bomb the ball in long, the coaches know about the above and direct accordingly.

It’s staggering that we manage to have 3 of the worst 7 disposers of the ball in our starting midfield for majority of games. 
 

Viney’s 20m kick to kill us on Friday was simply inexcusable.

One elite kicking mid could transform our game. Errol Gulden, Josh Kelly, Jordan Dawson. If only they grew on trees.

 

 

Is 'worst kick' based on accuracy to teammate and not clangers etc?

At the same time the game plan of lumping it into the f50 won't do much to improve their ratings. 

 

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10 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Why don't you 'entirely' agree with the comparison? 

Because Toby plays more time forward and would have more shots under less pressure? 

That's the only reason I can think of. 

Aside from that, it's something I've continued to bring up but get the same responses back from the same nuffs. Can't point out anything negative about a Melbourne player remember. 

Oliver, Viney, Trac, Langdon are all big contributors to our forward entry woes.. 

And the FD continue to ignore. 

Langdon’s form dropped off a cliff, I really hope Howes and Woewodin are given the opportunity to take his spot. Chandler’s a spud let’s be honest. AMW needs to take his spot. Petty and JVR need to own the forward. Turner must build his tank and his strength to keep Tomlinson out. Recruit May’s replacement. Recruit at least 2 good users of the ball to run through the middle. Were well and truly in it but must add polish. Bring the youth in and drive them all hard in the preseason.

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Out Harmes , Jordon , T.Mac , BB , Choco , ex Saint coach , Laurie , Stafford plus retirements. In Dew , Gawn to be ruck coach. Howes to become a winger . D.Turner or Tomlinson ( if still on list ) to become "swingman". Rivers to become a mid .Bowey to be tried as a forward . Kossie to play more time as a forward . Smith to plays a FP role . Get Riley or next best mid . Get Nate Caddy as mid / forward. Beef up Verral . Schache to play defence . Beef up Jefferson .

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23 hours ago, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

Yeah we fuggd up getting Grundy instead of a Key Forward.

We weren't to know that BBB and Tommy Mac would be permanently injured/fall off a cliff in terms of form, but we also put time into Smith as a forward. And we did bring in Schache. But then what KPF's were available? 

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