Umpiring discrepancies

[YesitwasaWin4theAges 5,795]

39 minutes ago, binman said:

I posted this in another thread, but it is more relevant in this thread:

Look, I've calmed down now.

But that error caused us to not get 4 points - in a game we won expected score (a stat the clubs put a lot of store in) by 2 points.

it's simply not good enough. And i would say the same if it was us that benefited.

If they use ARC they should invest in the technology. And then have a proper system.

The VAR in the world cup works brilliantly, one because they have the tech. But as importanty it takes the pressure of the referee and linesman. If a difficult , and potentially controversial decision has to be made, it's made by an anonymous person shielded from baying fans. And the on field ref doesn’t cop it.

We essentialy revert to the umpires call when in doubt ' and they have made the call in the moment, under huge pressure  with no option to take their time and calmly review the evidence.

If they don't want to invest in the tech to work and/or have a proper system then scrap the arc.

And make it simple. If the umpire is 100% certain it is touched, it's a point.

If not 100% certain its a goal.

Takes out the grey. A huge amount of stress is avoided - not to mention resources that could be instead poured into improving the decision making skills of theumpireds.

Think about it. The ARC was brought in after hawkins was awarded a goal in a gf when replays (and the naked eye) showed it hit the post to prevent similar 'howlers'

Fifteen years later we are still having howlers. But worse. Because everyone watching sees it over and over.

The law of unintended consequences. A law the AFL consistently, repeatedly fail to respect, let alone heed.

They could have saved a fortune, and a huge amount of angst, if they simply changed the rule and made it like rugby (and soccer, and Hockey and gridiron and ice hockey and Gaelic football) - it hits the inside of the post and goes thru, its a goal

If it hits the post and goes back into the field of play it's a point (or play on, which would be rare, but add an interesting variable).

Instead we now have ridiculous scenarios of amateur "snicko' (i mean please - its not even accurate and nor all grounds has it), points getting paid when it hits oversized, flapping padding and minutes wasted trying to zoom in using sub standard tech on the point of impact - only to end up going with whatever the "soft call"  was (which there is no fixed rule on what it should be ie  they could simply make the rule if its not clear its a goal).

To me it yet another example of the AFL making things ridiculously, and unnecessarily complicated and having grey areas they could take out of the game.

It is hard not think it is a conscious decision by the AFL not to fix all this  rubbish up.

Why might they not take as much grey as they can out of the game?

The AFL is addicted to controversy because controversy sucks up media air time. Creates clicks. Unlimited content.

A good example is a free for insufficient intent to keep the ball in play. What a ridiculous concept. The umpires have to determine the players mindset it in for petes sake. Not to mention factor in things like proximity of teamated, bounce of the ball eyc eyc.

Deliberate made more sense. But was still flawed.

Take out the grey, make it easier for the umpires, and just have the last touch rule between the arcs they have in AFLW. Not a single footy fan would be unhappy with that.

And critically it would reduce errors, take out a variable and most important of all give one less thing for fans to howl at the umpires for.

There are dozens of of rule changes they could make if they were serious about making the job of the umpire easier, reducing the criticism they receive and removing as much grey from how the game is officiated as possible.

Clearing up the holding the ball/insufficient attemp/not disposing schemozzle is just one.

It was a joke on Saturday night.

And that's on the AFL, not the umpires. I watched Casey yesterday. There is CLEARLY a directive not to pay htb. Just like Saturday night, a ridiculous number of clear frees not paid.

And the new one is blocking or holding in marling contests. I watched 10 mins of the saints game and King got the softest free for a hold in the goal square. Bowey gets pinged when he scraps and marks. Yet other clear blocks, scraps and holds get completely ignored - even when there is a 4th umpire right there. And they wonder why people get so upset at umpires. That's on the AFL.

The AFL talk a good game about the importance of not criticising the umpires. Which is fair enough.

But they are the problem, and offer no solutions- not even when the solutions are in their control and simple to implement.

Umpires deserves better.

Players deserve better.

They didn't even try to zoom in on Saturday night @binman didn't even look at the vision from the other goal post camera.

The Arc operators froze Saturday night.

Next day 4th quarter of the Hawks v Bulldogs game Hawks had a kicked touch on the line and they thoroughly checked both post camera angles and even zoomed in on the touched ball.

No integrity whatsoever with the AFL all corporate spin.

They can send man to the moon, have car that drive themselves but they can't find technology to determine whether a ball has been touched or not.

Put your money 💰 in your pockets AFL find a better system search the world to find it.

Even whack a go pro on the goal umpires hat.

Just do something!

 

[hardtack 10,126]

2 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

Ummm, I think you’ll find that they actually were very much the reason we lost. 

So you’re saying that those three quick goals at the beginning of the last quarter were all a result of poor umpiring?

The reason we lost was that we slept through much of the first half of the game, and then, when we had managed to get them on their knees by the end of the third, had a micro sleep allowing them to gain the ascendancy… if you’re going to blame anything else for the loss, then I’d be looking at the standard of the goal line technology, not the umpire. 

I’ll admit that I missed quite a bit of the game (first half) and am relying on my son’s first half assessment, but the only really dodgy umpiring decision I saw, was Roo having his legs taken out from under him on the boundary line in the dying minutes of the game.

[binman 38,032]

1 hour ago, John Crow Batty said:

 The 4th umpire needs to be an experienced full time master umpire who follows the action but does not make ordinary flow of play decisions. However he needs to have the authority over the other 3 and can overturn decisions, step in when a clear infringement is missed and directs the other umpires on interpretation as the game develops. Like an orchestra conductor to keep musicians synchronised and in lockstep.

That's a really great idea. A brilliant idea. 

Make them full time professionals. Reward them properly.  

Every game has one. 

Rotate them so they also do the other non 'conductor' roles.

Have them essentially coach the other umpires at the breaks and half time

Assess their performance on how well the overall game is officiated. Offer considerable performance bonuses for when  KPIs are exceeded. 

Put them in front of the media after games, or on the Monday morning. Allow tough questions to be asked. Allow them to admits errors and take on board conductive feedback. But also to push back on silly narratives. 

Give them some say in how the rules are written and interpreted. 

Allow them to become trusted voice, an authoritative voice, fabric of the game and part of the conversation the way Glenn James and harry Bietzel were.  

The pros act as mentors and there is a clear pathway for excellence and promotion. 

Have only the pros do prelims and GFs. Which is essentially what happens anyway - the best umpires umpiring the biggest games.

They can also do the Brownlow votes.

Announce the four pros to officiate the GF at the Brownlow (and and pay them a really good bonus).  

Award a best umpire of the year - the Bietzel - and that person is the head umpire for the GF.

Edited August 14, 2023 by binman

[leave it to deever 15,344]

1 minute ago, hardtack said:

So you’re saying that those three quick goals at the beginning of the last quarter were all a result of poor umpiring?

The reason we lost was that we slept through much of the first half of the game, and then, when we had managed to get them on their knees by the end of the third, had a micro sleep allowing them to gain the ascendancy… if you’re going to blame anything else for the loss, then I’d be looking at the standard of the goal line technology, not the umpire. 

I’ll admit that I missed quite a bit of the game (first half) and am relying on my son’s first half assessment, but the only really dodgy umpiring decision I saw, was Roo having his legs taken out from under him on the boundary line in the dying minutes of the game.

Sometimes it's the lack of calls that make up the many bad decisions. Our tackling was not rewarded like theirs. Not a dig at you but anyone who says bad umpiring doesn't cost clubs games has absolutely no clue. Umpires are human and often get swayed or intimidated by large parochial crowds. 

[leave it to deever 15,344]

2 minutes ago, binman said:

That's a really great idea. A brilliant idea. 

Make them full time professionals. Reward them properly.  

Every game has one. 

Rotate them so they also do the other non 'conductor' roles.

Have them essentially coach the other umpires at the breaks and half time

Assess their performance on how well the overall game is officiated. Offer considerable performance bonuses for when  KPIs are exceeded. 

Put them in front of the media after games, or on the Monday morning. Allow tough questions to be asked. Allow them to admits errors and take on board conductive feedback. But also to push back on silly narratives. 

Give them some say in how the rules are written and interpreted. 

Allow them to become trusted voice, an authoritative voice, fabric of the game and part of the conversation the way Glenn James and harry Bietzel were.  

The pros go act as mentors and there is a clear pathway for excellence and promotion. 

Have only the pros do prelims and GFs. Which is essentially what happens anyway - the best umpires umpiring the biggest games.

They can also do the Brownlow votes.

Announce the four pros to officiate the GF at the Brownlow (and pay them really good bonus) and 

Award a best umpire of the year - the Bietzel - and that person is the head umpire for the GF.

And public floggings too. Just kidding.

Love the Harry b award.

[ElDiablo14 3,056]

23 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Would that $100k be needed for the MCG or all grounds?

Probably for just one ground.

[Bates Mate 3,818]

If Hawkeye at the tennis can pinpoint a tennis ball travelling 200km with in millimetres, surley the tech is available. What possible excuse is there not to have it at all the major AFL venues? Can't be $$$ surley 

Edited August 14, 2023 by Bates Mate

[FearTheBeard 829]

2 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

Ummm, I think you’ll find that they actually were very much the reason we lost. 
 

 

Yep because the umpires are the reason we were garbage for the first quarter and a half, the umpires cause Christian Salem to stream through 50 and have the worst shot for goal imaginable? The umpires are the reason our foot skills were as poor as a VFL side, they are the reason our ball movement wasnt up to it and most importantly, the umpires are the reason that Carlton were the better side on the night and deserved to win the game. Give me a spell.

[Demonstone 19,113]

I was going to blame the umpires for the two set shots that the normally reliable van Rooyen missed, but it turns out that was the fault of @WalkingCivilWar and the incorrect positioning of the bullseye sign.

[rjay 23,909]

1 hour ago, binman said:

The AFL talk a good game about the importance of not criticising the umpires. Which is fair enough.

But they are the problem, and offer no solutions- not even when the solutions are in their control and simple to implement.

Umpires deserves better.

Players deserve better.

Agree with all you say 'bin'...but here lies the problem.

I think the umpiring is at it's lowest ebb since I've been watching football, and that's a long time now.

I don't blame the umpires, although I did have a shot at Ray the other night for missing the JVR trip.

You can see the umps don't have any confidence in their own game and that's due to the AFL.

You've got a retired CEO, no football manager and 2 board vacancies.

Who is running the place?

It's a total shambles.

Edited August 14, 2023 by rjay

[hardtack 10,126]

32 minutes ago, leave it to deever said:

Sometimes it's the lack of calls that make up the many bad decisions. Our tackling was not rewarded like theirs. Not a dig at you but anyone who says bad umpiring doesn't cost clubs games has absolutely no clue. Umpires are human and often get swayed or intimidated by large parochial crowds. 

I agree to a point, but those missed calls probably even themselves out over the course of most games and are to be expected due to the pace of the game. Imagine how [censored] off we’d all be if every single infringement were picked up by the umpires… it would create an almost unwatchable game due to the numbers of stoppages in play.

I feel for the umpires as while being a necessary component of the game, they’re always going to be damned if they don’t and damned if they do. 

[The heart beats true 16,141]

2 hours ago, demon3165 said:

And Max does the same, one rule I would change is around the ground throw ups and boundary throw ins, no contact prior to the ball being thrown up or in there is to much manhandling these days.

That’s actually a really clean, simple idea. I wonder why they don’t implement that? It makes it so much easier for all footy fans to understand an infringement.

We got rid of third man up and everyone adjusted. We should definitely implement this.

[monoccular 16,066]

59 minutes ago, Rab D Nesbitt said:

It's quite simple. The AFL is a multi-million dollar industry being run like an amateur organisation. Full time umpiring and the latest VAR goal line technology should be non-negotiable. I'm surprised they're not already using the time it takes to make a VAR decision to introduce spot betting on the outcome to help fund them both. 

The time it takes for the review they could have Nathan Brown calling the odds -$.50 for goal, &50 for touched. 🙄🙄🤮🤮

1 hour ago, binman said:

I posted this in another thread, but it is more relevant in this thread:

Look, I've calmed down now.

But that error caused us to not get 4 points - in a game we won expected score (a stat the clubs put a lot of store in) by 2 points.

it's simply not good enough. And i would say the same if it was us that benefited.

If they use ARC they should invest in the technology. And then have a proper system.

The VAR in the world cup works brilliantly, one because they have the tech. But as importanty it takes the pressure of the referee and linesman. If a difficult , and potentially controversial decision has to be made, it's made by an anonymous person shielded from baying fans. And the on field ref doesn’t cop it.

We essentialy revert to the umpires call when in doubt ' and they have made the call in the moment, under huge pressure  with no option to take their time and calmly review the evidence.

If they don't want to invest in the tech to work and/or have a proper system then scrap the arc.

And make it simple. If the umpire is 100% certain it is touched, it's a point.

If not 100% certain its a goal.

Takes out the grey. A huge amount of stress is avoided - not to mention resources that could be instead poured into improving the decision making skills of theumpireds.

Think about it. The ARC was brought in after hawkins was awarded a goal in a gf when replays (and the naked eye) showed it hit the post to prevent similar 'howlers'

Fifteen years later we are still having howlers. But worse. Because everyone watching sees it over and over.

The law of unintended consequences. A law the AFL consistently, repeatedly fail to respect, let alone heed.

They could have saved a fortune, and a huge amount of angst, if they simply changed the rule and made it like rugby (and soccer, and Hockey and gridiron and ice hockey and Gaelic football) - it hits the inside of the post and goes thru, its a goal

If it hits the post and goes back into the field of play it's a point (or play on, which would be rare, but add an interesting variable).

Instead we now have ridiculous scenarios of amateur "snicko' (i mean please - its not even accurate and nor all grounds has it), points getting paid when it hits oversized, flapping padding and minutes wasted trying to zoom in using sub standard tech on the point of impact - only to end up going with whatever the "soft call"  was (which there is no fixed rule on what it should be ie  they could simply make the rule if its not clear its a goal).

To me it yet another example of the AFL making things ridiculously, and unnecessarily complicated and having grey areas they could take out of the game.

It is hard not think it is a conscious decision by the AFL not to fix all this  rubbish up.

Why might they not take as much grey as they can out of the game?

The AFL is addicted to controversy because controversy sucks up media air time. Creates clicks. Unlimited content.

A good example is a free for insufficient intent to keep the ball in play. What a ridiculous concept. The umpires have to determine the players mindset it in for petes sake. Not to mention factor in things like proximity of teamated, bounce of the ball eyc eyc.

Deliberate made more sense. But was still flawed.

Take out the grey, make it easier for the umpires, and just have the last touch rule between the arcs they have in AFLW. Not a single footy fan would be unhappy with that.

And critically it would reduce errors, take out a variable and most important of all give one less thing for fans to howl at the umpires for.

There are dozens of of rule changes they could make if they were serious about making the job of the umpire easier, reducing the criticism they receive and removing as much grey from how the game is officiated as possible.

Clearing up the holding the ball/insufficient attemp/not disposing schemozzle is just one.

It was a joke on Saturday night.

And that's on the AFL, not the umpires. I watched Casey yesterday. There is CLEARLY a directive not to pay htb. Just like Saturday night, a ridiculous number of clear frees not paid.

And the new one is blocking or holding in marling contests. I watched 10 mins of the saints game and King got the softest free for a hold in the goal square. Bowey gets pinged when he scraps and marks. Yet other clear blocks, scraps and holds get completely ignored - even when there is a 4th umpire right there. And they wonder why people get so upset at umpires. That's on the AFL.

The AFL talk a good game about the importance of not criticising the umpires. Which is fair enough.

But they are the problem, and offer no solutions- not even when the solutions are in their control and simple to implement.

Umpires deserves better.

Players deserve better.

Post of the year, binman, though I cannot agree with the last touch OOB free.  Possibly if it is an uncontested kick or handball but not from a contest. 

47 minutes ago, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

They didn't even try to zoom in on Saturday night @binman didn't even look at the vision from the other goal post camera.

The Arc operators froze Saturday night.

Next day 4th quarter of the Hawks v Bulldogs game Hawks had a kicked touch on the line and they thoroughly checked both post camera angles and even zoomed in on the touched ball.

No integrity whatsoever with the AFL all corporate spin.

They can send man to the moon, have car that drive themselves but they can't find technology to determine whether a ball has been touched or not.

Put your money 💰 in your pockets AFL find a better system search the world to find it.

Even whack a go pro on the goal umpires hat.

Just do something!

 

I am sure they could justify an overseas junket to investigate how the Americans do this, though soccer probably does it best. 

43 minutes ago, binman said:

That's a really great idea. A brilliant idea. 

Make them full time professionals. Reward them properly.  

Every game has one. 

Rotate them so they also do the other non 'conductor' roles.

Have them essentially coach the other umpires at the breaks and half time

Assess their performance on how well the overall game is officiated. Offer considerable performance bonuses for when  KPIs are exceeded. 

Put them in front of the media after games, or on the Monday morning. Allow tough questions to be asked. Allow them to admits errors and take on board conductive feedback. But also to push back on silly narratives. 

Give them some say in how the rules are written and interpreted. 

Allow them to become trusted voice, an authoritative voice, fabric of the game and part of the conversation the way Glenn James and harry Bietzel were.  

The pros go act as mentors and there is a clear pathway for excellence and promotion. 

Have only the pros do prelims and GFs. Which is essentially what happens anyway - the best umpires umpiring the biggest games.

They can also do the Brownlow votes.

Announce the four pros to officiate the GF at the Brownlow (and pay them really good bonus) and 

Award a best umpire of the year - the Bietzel - and that person is the head umpire for the GF.

And s second post of the year binman.  You are on fire. Looking forward even more than usual to the podcast 🤗❤️💙❤️💙

[The heart beats true 16,141]

I will say that I felt the umpire’s positioning in the forward line of both teams was much better on the weekend. I noticed them (Chamberlain in particular) working harder to be on the boundary side of the contest and award obvious free kicks to Curnow and Smith by being correctly positioned.

I think forwards and defenders rely too much on the umpires being central, so it was good to see an adjustment by the umps.

Also, while we are talking about the umpires, they are dirty cheats and costs us the game. Carry on.

[The heart beats true 16,141]

1 hour ago, binman said:

We essentialy revert to the umpires call when in doubt ' and they have made the call in the moment, under huge pressure  with no option to take their time and calmly review the evidence.

This is my constant frustration with the ARC. It’s actually been turned into a court of appeal. Why is the ARC told the umpires called? The onus is then on them to overturn someone else’s decision.

If the ARC looked at the footage without any precedent from the available angles on Saturday night they’d say the ball was clearly not touched. Instead they were tasked with overturning the on field decision, instead of looking at the footage objectively and making an independent call. That shouldn’t be the ARC’s brief. Their brief should clearly be ‘look at this and make your decision with much more available information than we have’. Then if they say ‘insufficient evidence’ it goes back to the umpire to make his (until now unknown) call.

[binman 38,032]

2 hours ago, FearTheBeard said:

Yep because the umpires are the reason we were garbage for the first quarter and a half, the umpires cause Christian Salem to stream through 50 and have the worst shot for goal imaginable? The umpires are the reason our foot skills were as poor as a VFL side, they are the reason our ball movement wasnt up to it and most importantly, the umpires are the reason that Carlton were the better side on the night and deserved to win the game. Give me a spell.

Give me a spell.

We were not 'garbage' for the first quarter and half.

The blues were brilliant. Their intensity was off the charts. And we stood up amazingly well.

You've managed to insult both the Dees AND the blues (if we were garbage for a quarter and a half any decent team, let alone a tem of the Blues caliber, would have gone into half time with a 6 goal lead)

Such rot.

On ABC radio after the game, whcih i srted listing to on my way home, Brendan Goddard said the 'demons lost no admirers, they were awesome' (he also went on to say that ARC decision was clearly an error and questioned how they could have made the decision so quickly).

Without a word of a lie, i immediately thought to myself, yes they will - but not from any objective person, but rather it will be dees fans who can't see the woods for the trees. 

This was the pressure rating for the match (note 200 is consider elite, finals like pressure - we finished with an average across the game of 200. That is unbelievable).

Team pressure

Quarter	For	Against
1	196	224
2	185	201
3	207	197
4	214	202
Match	200	206

The fact that the blues had an average of 206 is credit to them. Amazing pressure - i would be very surprised if they have had a higher rating in any other game this season. 

No other team has come close to that sort of sustained pressure in a game against us this season. By way of comparison in our previous encounter both team averaged 170 for the game.

And IIRC the Pies Port game, which many have said is the best, most intense game of the season, was aprox the same as the blues dees game.

Most finals don't get to those levels. Our GF win didn't. And nor did the Pies Cats game on Friday night for that matter. 

And before you dismiss the stat, clubs put huge stock in it. It was designed by Champion Data for clubs, not TV.

If you don't believe me listen to McRae's post match presser - he promised they would lift their pressure rating ahead of the game and in the presser references their pressure being back to it's very best - 'at 2'  (note: the data the clubs get, which Brendan Sanderson has said is shown to players on the bench thru the match, is expressed as say 1.8 for 180 - fox and the herald sun just adds a zero to make it sexier and easier for fans to grasp).

Edited August 14, 2023 by binman

[Brownie 5,177]

Against my better judgement, I watched the last quarter. We played out of our skins to grab this match.
To those that say that umpires don't influence results. We dominated the last quarter after our first few minutes of lapsing.

Probably seen through an MFC lense but....

18:30 - Bowey takes a clean mark centre wing coming down with one arm held by his opponent - Free kick Carlton.

17:50 - Clear push in the back by Cripps on Brayshaw - no free

13:15 - Clear Throw by Carlton player while being tackled - no free

12:40 - Carlton player jumps on Sparrows back - no free

12:21 - Rivers gets a free for obvious dangerous tackle which wasn't going to be paid by the closest ump - Ump further away pays the free- Rivers kicks to Snith who marks and goals - Fantastic

11:10 - Salem clearly held off contest.

09:40 - ANB just misses snap at goal.

09:22 - Melksham slips over in vital one on one contest in goal square. Carlton clears.

08:16 - Dow get's caught with one arm free and flops forward to pull a push in the back - Free kick Carlton (after umps miss two to us earlier in the qtr)

07:20 - The most ridiculous set of Carlton players being tackled by us eventuating in Cripps just dropping the ball - No Free! Just ridiculous.

7:00 - Brayshaw tackled around the head by Cripps - no free play on.

5:56 - Martin pulls a soft Push in the back in their forward 50 for a shot on goal as McVee bumps him in a one on one contest 50/50 decision I reckon - Free kick Carlton

4:13 - Incredible defence by the Dess for the next 2 minutes culminating in Viney being piled on in the back by 3 Carlton players - No Free

4:00 - Gawns arm held again in last 3 ruck contests.

3:00 - Great defence again from Hibbo, Lever and a long pass to a gut running Sparrow

2:43 - Sparrow get's it forward and we should have goaled from this passage as Grundy well clear forward and deep, instead it's back to JVR by the boundary and his legs are taken out 50m from goal - No Free

2:15 - McVee great kick to Salem who should have goaled.

1:43 - Deliberate OOB to us on the wing - Free kick Melbourne

1:40 - Melksham slips again - should have worn steel studs illegally like Cripps did Milkshake.

1:17 - Carlton player is caught red hot and just flops forward trying to milk a PIB - No free

1:08 - Langdon caught - lucky no to be HTB - No Free

00:48 - Petracca scores a goal and gets a point.

00:25 - Deliberate OOB - Free kick Melbourne.

00:20 - Gawn blocked from running to the marking contest and then scragged in the marking contest - play on

00:00 - Carlton steals 4 points.

It was actually good to watch again, we really dominated most of the last, just didn't finish.

But yeah, the inconsistencies and when the soft free kicks allow a shot on goal can ruin a great game of footy.

HTB and incorrect disposal no longer makes any sense.
Players are deliberately flopping forward to try and pull frees for PIB while at other times, players get sat on and get nothing.

Max and Clarry can be scragged all game yet Bowey's opponent get's the softest free for holding in a one on one.

JVR can have his legs taken out and it's called corageous by the commentators.

The review system is a joke. How does the AFL just announce it's cleared itself again and again?

[binman 38,032]

11 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

This is my constant frustration with the ARC. It’s actually been turned into a court of appeal. Why is the ARC told the umpires called? The onus is then on them to overturn someone else’s decision.

If the ARC looked at the footage without any precedent from the available angles on Saturday night they’d say the ball was clearly not touched. Instead they were tasked with overturning the on field decision, instead of looking at the footage objectively and making an independent call. That shouldn’t be the ARC’s brief. Their brief should clearly be ‘look at this and make your decision with much more available information than we have’. Then if they say ‘insufficient evidence’ it goes back to the umpire to make his (until now unknown) call.

Yes, i hadn't considered that. That makes perfect sense.

An elegant solution that like all such solutions is simple, logical and makes sense. 

[YearOfTheDees 3,092]

I got sick of the holding on every time we did take a mark "not that we took many" thought that was an instant 50. 

[binman 38,032]

51 minutes ago, rjay said:

Agree with all you say 'bin'...but here lies the problem.

I think the umpiring is at it's lowest ebb since I've been watching football, and that's a long time now.

I don't blame the umpires, although I did have a shot at Ray the other night for missing the JVR trip.

You can see the umps don't have any confidence in their own game and that's due to the AFL.

You've got a retired CEO, no football manager and 2 board vacancies.

Who is running the place?

It's a total shambles.

I could not agree more rjay.

It's on the AFL, pure and simple.  

[ElDiablo14 3,056]

6 minutes ago, Brownie said:

Against my better judgement, I watched the last quarter. We played out of our skins to grab this match.
To those that say that umpires don't influence results. We dominated the last quarter after our first few minutes of lapsing.

Probably seen through an MFC lense but....

18:30 - Bowey takes a clean mark centre wing coming down with one arm held by his opponent - Free kick Carlton.

17:50 - Clear push in the back by Cripps on Brayshaw - no free

13:15 - Clear Throw by Carlton player while being tackled - no free

12:40 - Carlton player jumps on Sparrows back - no free

12:21 - Rivers gets a free for obvious dangerous tackle which wasn't going to be paid by the closest ump - Ump further away pays the free- Rivers kicks to Snith who marks and goals - Fantastic

11:10 - Salem clearly held off contest.

09:40 - ANB just misses snap at goal.

09:22 - Melksham slips over in vital one on one contest in goal square. Carlton clears.

08:16 - Dow get's caught with one arm free and flops forward to pull a push in the back - Free kick Carlton (after umps miss two to us earlier in the qtr)

07:20 - The most ridiculous set of Carlton players being tackled by us eventuating in Cripps just dropping the ball - No Free! Just ridiculous.

7:00 - Brayshaw tackled around the head by Cripps - no free play on.

5:56 - Martin pulls a soft Push in the back in their forward 50 for a shot on goal as McVee bumps him in a one on one contest 50/50 decision I reckon - Free kick Carlton

4:13 - Incredible defence by the Dess for the next 2 minutes culminating in Viney being piled on in the back by 3 Carlton players - No Free

4:00 - Gawns arm held again in last 3 ruck contests.

3:00 - Great defence again from Hibbo, Lever and a long pass to a gut running Sparrow

2:43 - Sparrow get's it forward and we should have goaled from this passage as Grundy well clear forward and deep, instead it's back to JVR by the boundary and his legs are taken out 50m from goal - No Free

2:15 - McVee great kick to Salem who should have goaled.

1:43 - Deliberate OOB to us on the wing - Free kick Melbourne

1:40 - Melksham slips again - should have worn steel studs illegally like Cripps did Milkshake.

1:17 - Carlton player is caught red hot and just flops forward trying to milk a PIB - No free

1:08 - Langdon caught - lucky no to be HTB - No Free

00:48 - Petracca scores a goal and gets a point.

00:25 - Deliberate OOB - Free kick Melbourne.

00:20 - Gawn blocked from running to the marking contest and then scragged in the marking contest - play on

00:00 - Carlton steals 4 points.

It was actually good to watch again, we really dominated most of the last, just didn't finish.

But yeah, the inconsistencies and when the soft free kicks allow a shot on goal can ruin a great game of footy.

HTB and incorrect disposal no longer makes any sense.
Players are deliberately flopping forward to try and pull frees for PIB while at other times, players get sat on and get nothing.

Max and Clarry can be scragged all game yet Bowey's opponent get's the softest free for holding in a one on one.

JVR can have his legs taken out and it's called corageous by the commentators.

The review system is a joke. How does the AFL just announce it's cleared itself again and again?

Yep, those commentator calling an illegal tackle "courageous" more like dumb, Dangerous and of course ILLEGAL!!! 😡😡😡

[sue 8,430]

1 hour ago, FearTheBeard said:

Yep because the umpires are the reason we were garbage for the first quarter and a half, the umpires cause Christian Salem to stream through 50 and have the worst shot for goal imaginable? The umpires are the reason our foot skills were as poor as a VFL side, they are the reason our ball movement wasnt up to it and most importantly, the umpires are the reason that Carlton were the better side on the night and deserved to win the game. Give me a spell.

This makes no sense.  Of course any team can put itself in a position where even if the umpire made 10 mistakes in a row they would still win. But footy (and most games) are not like that.  You can play badly or worse than your opponent but then still get back and the game may end up close.  At which point the outcome can depend on umpiring mistakes.  The fact that you could have done better earlier is irrelevant.    Regrettable, but irrelevant to the discussion.

[Call Me What You Will 693]

Not sure if people noticed, but Clown No 10 was running around on Friday night and then backed up in a Sunday game yesterday. This in itself is problematic about the “talent pool” especially as our AFL masters insist on 4 per game. (Happy to accept if this was a “last minute replacement”, but the talent pool argument should be of great concern.)

[YearOfTheDees 3,092]

One more ARK complaint - the number of times this year a decision has gone to The ARK and they have checked the wrong thing. I remember one earlier this year that might have gone our way when they checked for a goal-line touch when the Upm had asked to check if ball was touched off the foot. We just need set rules and I would rather a rule where the Goal Umps only problem is did the ball go though the goals or points, leave the rest up to Ark. ie it's a goal but please check if it was touched. 

[WalkingCivilWar 31,463]

39 minutes ago, Demonstone said:

I was going to blame the umpires for the two set shots that the normally reliable van Rooyen missed, but it turns out that was the fault of @WalkingCivilWar and the incorrect positioning of the bullseye sign.

Hmmmm 🤔 maybe I didn’t ‘masquerade’ as a Carlton supporter for all those years… maybe I AM a legit Carlton supporter after all.

My entire family is Carlton, hardcore ‘baggers the lot of them, including my recently deceased sister. When we were out in the middle on Saturday, the Carlton banner was raised and their song played and it made me cry. My banner crew buddy comforted me and said, “if the Blues win tonight it will be for your sister.”

After the match she said to me, “when I said the Blues might win for your sister, I wasn’t suggesting you make it happen!” 🤣