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Aliir Aliir & Lachie Jones in Concussion Protocol


YearOfTheDees

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3 hours ago, binman said:

And I'd add that there are mistakes and there are mistakes.

Giving a free away for say having too many rotations is a mistake. As in the roos example from earlier in the year, it might cost a team a game.

Bur something I haven't seen much comment on is the potential scenario of Allir copping another head knock when he went back on.

He was all at sea for the rest of that game, and there was a huge risk of another head knock because he wasn't switched on i would have thought.

So the mistake might have resulted in serious injury, or perhaps even forced retirement for Allir, as had just occurred for max lynch.

Couldn’t agree more. As per my earlier post, it implies a rather cavalier attitude towards the assessment of a head knock and suggests that, to Port, a decision on a head knock is low level fruit in the hierarchy of match day decisions. In their mind, just a run of the mill decision that they overlooked (lke missing a rotation/sub).  It is the attempt to cover it up (and the explanations) that is bringing them undone. 
cannot believe the AFL need to take so long to come up with a punishment and explanations. Behind the walls AT AFL house would at be like watching an episode of Utopia! 

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41 minutes ago, DubDee said:

i know

my point is this issue is minuscule compared to the doping saga and even then no points were dropped

It really isn’t. The league is currently facing multiple legal challenges relating to head injuries and negligence. 
It is by far the biggest issue facing the AFL currently. Hence the crackdown on all head high contact that we’ve seen this season from the MRO. 
 

Essendon suffered for years for what they did, and points were dropped in essence, since they made finals but were disqualified. That’s a far worse penalty than losing a couple of match points. 
 

Nobody is suggesting the same for Port, but they are REPEAT offenders in this space and deserve a hefty penalty, or else what sort of message is this sending to clubs?

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Wednesday night and still no official words from AFL HQ 

Pathetic if they think it will just go away

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The Port doc was wrong again IMOHe did not need to perform a test then.  He needed to immediately rule both players out of the game.  

The guidelines state that players must be removed if

- the player took No protective action in fall to ground i.e. Aliir

- the player has Dazed, blank/vacant stare or player not his/her normal self  i.e.  Jones

There are other criteria such as loss of consciousness but these are not as patently obvious from the replay.

 

The Guidelines (link at bottom) state that there is an external concussion spotter in the AFL Review Centre (ARC) who will flag incidents with the match-day club doctor by approved means.  Furthermore, The AFL provides all available broadcast video feeds via the HawkEye system to the club bench at match venues. This link enables the club to utilize real-time video feeds, with variable playback speeds, and multiple camera views.  AnSideline video review is mandatory in the assessment of a suspected concussion.

 

On the face of it, this is a good system.  It needs also to be investigated if the parts of the system other than the Club Doctor failed.  

Usually any  ineffectiveness of the AFL creates good copy but this will also ruin people's lives.

 

https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/document/2023/03/12/134a48f5-9206-4dd4-b88b-426dd1ea7b31/AFL-and-AFLW-Concussion-Guidelines-March-2023-FINAL-.pdf

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7 hours ago, YearOfTheDees said:

Fines are not a big enough deterrent the AFL needs to start taking match points off clubs. 

Correct.

The AFL funds all the clubs anyway, so financial is a slap on the wrist in the extreme.

I wonder if AFL HQ will see this as a challenge for Dillon's new position and therefore deliver swift, uncompromising sanctions. (they've probably missed the boat on that one already)

Or, whether they'll see it as a possibility to sweep it under the rug as it occurs between Gil's exit and Dillon's entrance.

If the footy media wasn't totally captured by the AFL, the possibility of seeing some legitimate accountability thrust upon those involved might be real. But we know that the industry is completely captured and therefore a huge PR machine for the AFL.

Edited by A F
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Last night on SEN Gerard Healy opened with a 2 or 3 minute monologue about AFL club doctors. He made some great points about this not being an ideal profession for these people because you get paid less and much more possible scrutiny like this, he also went on to list the amazing practitioners he's had at club level and still sees as his personal doctors now. Kane then came in and echo'd his statements and they both went on the defend people in these roles and how good they have been and that Fisher was a brilliant doctor who made a mistake and will serve the appropriate punishment.

Will choose my words carefully on this because this incident has really stirred things up. I appreciate Gerard's take on this, I really do. It's important we get opinions from people who have been around these people longer than any of us, and these opinions have their place. However with the highest respect to these people, at this point in time and on a very rare occasion, I do not want to hear from ex players on this issue. 

I want to hear from completely independent sources. Experts in the field, scholars, people who have studied these injuries and written theses on the subject. I want to hear about what needs to happen, what needs to be different about processes, protocols etc. I don't want to hear Kane Cornes saying how doctors have it so tough and have to tend to so many things in the moment and could easily make a mistake by missing a potential concussion and requirement for a SCAT5 test, because to me that just means there is scope for another mistake to be made in future. This is absolutely not a time for the old "You wouldn't know because you never played or worked in a footy club, you don't know how hard it is" routine. 

No excuses, we need solutions and we need the select few people who actually know the subject back to front to come up with these. Not people with a conflict of interest or sticking up for mates. 

 

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5 minutes ago, layzie said:

Last night on SEN Gerard Healy opened with a 2 or 3 minute monologue about AFL club doctors. He made some great points about this not being an ideal profession for these people because you get paid less and much more possible scrutiny like this, he also went on to list the amazing practitioners he's had at club level and still sees as his personal doctors now. Kane then came in and echo'd his statements and they both went on the defend people in these roles and how good they have been and that Fisher was a brilliant doctor who made a mistake and will serve the appropriate punishment.

Will choose my words carefully on this because this incident has really stirred things up. I appreciate Gerard's take on this, I really do. It's important we get opinions from people who have been around these people longer than any of us, and these opinions have their place. However with the highest respect to these people, at this point in time and on a very rare occasion, I do not want to hear from ex players on this issue. 

I want to hear from completely independent sources. Experts in the field, scholars, people who have studied these injuries and written theses on the subject. I want to hear about what needs to happen, what needs to be different about processes, protocols etc. I don't want to hear Kane Cornes saying how doctors have it so tough and have to tend to so many things in the moment and could easily make a mistake by missing a potential concussion and requirement for a SCAT5 test, because to me that just means there is scope for another mistake to be made in future. This is absolutely not a time for the old "You wouldn't know because you never played or worked in a footy club, you don't know how hard it is" routine. 

No excuses, we need solutions and we need the select few people who actually know the subject back to front to come up with these. Not people with a conflict of interest or sticking up for mates. 

 

Sounds like a an attempt to whitewash the situation. It was an honest mistake, nothing deliberate and tactical is the narrative. Players get hefty suspensions for mistakes. But the language is always different, rather than a mistake it’s labeled as reckless, careless or deliberate. 

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On 8/2/2023 at 12:16 AM, Satan said:

“Good clubs stick by good people”

Kane goes with rhetoric and tries to trump logic here

“good clubs sack incompetent people” could equally apply

people die from brain trauma and for a doctor to not spot the symptoms of concussion that everyone could see is medical incompetence or worse

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Could there be a connection between  inadequate concussion protocols in the AFL and domestic violence from activity post contact sport?

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53 minutes ago, layzie said:

Last night on SEN Gerard Healy opened with a 2 or 3 minute monologue about AFL club doctors. He made some great points about this not being an ideal profession for these people because you get paid less and much more possible scrutiny like this, he also went on to list the amazing practitioners he's had at club level and still sees as his personal doctors now. Kane then came in and echo'd his statements and they both went on the defend people in these roles and how good they have been and that Fisher was a brilliant doctor who made a mistake and will serve the appropriate punishment.

Will choose my words carefully on this because this incident has really stirred things up. I appreciate Gerard's take on this, I really do. It's important we get opinions from people who have been around these people longer than any of us, and these opinions have their place. However with the highest respect to these people, at this point in time and on a very rare occasion, I do not want to hear from ex players on this issue. 

I want to hear from completely independent sources. Experts in the field, scholars, people who have studied these injuries and written theses on the subject. I want to hear about what needs to happen, what needs to be different about processes, protocols etc. I don't want to hear Kane Cornes saying how doctors have it so tough and have to tend to so many things in the moment and could easily make a mistake by missing a potential concussion and requirement for a SCAT5 test, because to me that just means there is scope for another mistake to be made in future. This is absolutely not a time for the old "You wouldn't know because you never played or worked in a footy club, you don't know how hard it is" routine. 

No excuses, we need solutions and we need the select few people who actually know the subject back to front to come up with these. Not people with a conflict of interest or sticking up for mates. 

 

The only reason Kane is not doing his usual schtick of taking the most extreme position possible is because it’s Port Adelaide. He’s hopelessly compromised when it comes to them, any other club and he would be fire and brimstone.
As for Healey this same attitude pervaded the whole Essendon saga, “it was a mistake”, “the weren’t really trying to get an advantage”, “they’re good blokes”. Blind Freddy could see what happened here, they tried to game the system to gain a competitive advantage and damn the potential health consequences for the player. As you say this needs to be taken out of the entire AFL’s hands, the boys club has shown itself to not be able to be impartial and adjudicate laws effectively in these scenarios. I’m sure any independent review panel would find this egregiously out of line. Medical negligence is a thing for doctors too, they’re not perfect and this situation appears to fit the bill! 

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3 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Excellent article in The Age today from Prof Peter Brukner about being a club doctor. He should know - he was ours for a while. 

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/why-would-you-be-an-afl-club-doctor-20230801-p5dsw0.html  

In that article I found these words interesting:

The scrutiny comes from both the AFL itself, with an independent doctor viewing the game from a hub alongside the AFL review centre (ARC) charged with alerting the doctors on the bench to an incident they may have missed that could involve a concussion......

Has anyone heard any comment on why this independent doctor didn't alert Port to what the rest of us could see?   Or did they, but were ignored?

Edited by sue
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2 minutes ago, sue said:

In that article I found these words interesting:

The scrutiny comes from both the AFL itself, with an independent doctor viewing the game from a hub alongside the AFL review centre (ARC) charged with alerting the doctors on the bench to an incident they may have missed that could involve a concussion......

Has anyone heard any comment on why this independent doctor didn't alert Port to what the rest of us could see?   Or did they, but were ignored?

Probably they just received the information that a probable concussion occurred. However, the club doctors and staff are the ones that ultimately decided the procedure to follow.

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This whole business is getting a familiar ring about it. 

The next stage was when the boys in red and black said nothing to see here along with their acolytes when all of a sudden some big players started to put their family in front of everything, and the manure hit the fan.

The Pollies moved in and the crooked elements moved on....

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4 hours ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

Excellent article in The Age today from Prof Peter Brukner about being a club doctor. He should know - he was ours for a while. 

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/why-would-you-be-an-afl-club-doctor-20230801-p5dsw0.html  

Thanks La Dee-vina, while it provides some context for the work that club Doctors do I don't see this justify in any way why the Port doctor make a determination that both players were not concussed. Even more bizarre is that the Doctor was able to make a split decision that not only was Jones not concussed but instead had a migraine.

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I hope the AFL goes hard both with a fine (against the soft cap) and with something else.

My reasoning is that this is far from an isolated incident with Port. I think they have shown repeatedly to lack a duty of care to their players in regard to concussion.

Last year there was a similar issue that was reviewed by the AFL.
AFL 2022: Zak Butters, Tom Jonas head knock, concussion debate, Port Adelaide Power v Richmond Tigers, Ken Hinkley, reactions, response (foxsports.com.au)
Sam Mayes
AFL 2023: Port Adelaide concussion treatment, Sam Mayes head knock, sent back onto ground, SANFL, Aliir Aliir, Cassandra Burton, latest news (foxsports.com.au)
Hartlett
Power slugged with huge fine over Hartlett head knock (afl.com.au)

All of these are very similar in their nature. Tell me another club that has been as scrutinised over concussion related issues as Port.  The fact that Kane Cornes is defending the club doctor suggests that the same doc has been in place since he retired. There is something not quite right with the way that they are addressing these incidents on the field.

The AFL itself knows that at some point in the future they will be called upon to answer a case against what steps they took to ensure that concussion protocols are adhered to and the steps taken to dissuade clubs from acting against such protocols. Don't think a 50k fine is a deterrent at all. 

Edited by Ouch!
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19 minutes ago, chookrat said:

Thanks La Dee-vina, while it provides some context for the work that club Doctors do I don't see this justify in any way why the Port doctor make a determination that both players were not concussed. Even more bizarre is that the Doctor was able to make a split decision that not only was Jones not concussed but instead had a migraine.

.....and of course a migraine isn't a symptom associated with a concussion related incident. 

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Whilst I did say earlier that I somewhat understand Cornes' position on this issue (i.e. not going too hard for a single doctor who will have done a lot right by players over the years, even if this is an egregious mistake), this issue does display his awfully blatant Port Adelaide bias.

When Oliver was ruled out for longer than first expected he called it the "Demon Debacle" and said he couldn't think of another injury that was managed as poorly. No "good clubs stick by good people" for us, was there.

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The football media it seems are pushing the narrative that it was an honest mistake and not a deliberate cynical action to flout the rules as it appeared to anyone with average vision. Shifting the goal posts to turn the discussion into something else. How can a club doctor not see what everyone else saw? The vision of the collision and aftermath was damning.

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33 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Whilst I did say earlier that I somewhat understand Cornes' position on this issue (i.e. not going too hard for a single doctor who will have done a lot right by players over the years, even if this is an egregious mistake), this issue does display his awfully blatant Port Adelaide bias.

When Oliver was ruled out for longer than first expected he called it the "Demon Debacle" and said he couldn't think of another injury that was managed as poorly. No "good clubs stick by good people" for us, was there.

Cornes is so biased it's embarrassing.

Amazed no one else in the media is calling him out for not doing his 'Vol-Kane-o' segment about this. 

He is an absolute peanut and can't stand the bloke.

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On 7/31/2023 at 6:13 PM, praha said:

Port is arguably the most arrogant AFL club for a while. And i don't mean Geelong and Hawthorn arrogant because they talked the talk and walked the walk. Port have this weird sense of entitlement that is quite comical. Assume it comes from having Koche as your President and Hinkley your coach. 

Not at all surprised by this really. They function in a bubble. Crom will win a flag before they do.

You're not wrong Praha. I was in Adelaide for the game v Port in R4 2022. The one where Port kicked their first goal half way through the 3rd quarter...

Every Port supporter I spoke to, both strangers and those known to me were: 

  • Certain they'd win before the game
  • Looked at me like i had steaming [censored] protruding from my face  when I mentioned we were reigning premiers and coming in to the game undefeated 
  • And completely astounded they didn't win after the game

Just bizarre... 

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