Garry Lyon analysis

[rjay 23,948]

5 minutes ago, rjay said:

.

 

I'm not a fan of Gary's analysis at the best of times. I think he's been out of the game for far too long to be relevant.

Also he has never coached at the level.

Unfortunately this is the case with most of the so called experts.

They are really not football experts they are football personalities.

Maybe Hardwick would be interesting for a year or so but unfortunately I think coaches who want to get back in the game hold their cards too close and don't really give everything away.

 

[jnrmac 19,131]

Gaz is 100% right.

No care for team mates , no selfless footy. Clearly playing to instruction - kick the ball on the forwards head in a three on one.

No one anywhere leading towards the ball carrier. Haven't seen that in the last 10 rounds.

And then we have NQRs like ANB and Harmes and Brayshaw who can't hit the side of a barn

Most frustrating side in the comp. Its all coaching. He has them completely confused and clueless about how to play forward.

 

WTF is Stafford doing?

[jnrmac 19,131]

17 minutes ago, rjay said:

I'm not a fan of Gary's analysis at the best of times. I think he's been out of the game for far too long to be relevant.

Also he has never coached at the level.

Unfortunately this is the case with most of the so called experts.

They are really not football experts they are football personalities.

Maybe Hardwick would be interesting for a year or so but unfortunately I think coaches who want to get back in the game hold their cards too close and don't really give everything away.

 

So attack his arguments rather than the man. Oh you can't because he is spot on.

[SPC 2,862]

2 things of note in the vision. ANB should get dropped.. that was unforgivable 2 weeks in a row.

We cannot play a tall forwardline as it just encourages the dumb bump kick to at outnumber.

Hold our half forwards closer to goal and use them on the way to goal.

Salem and Bowey to half forward. 

[rjay 23,948]

22 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

So attack his arguments rather than the man. Oh you can't because he is spot on.

Not attacking his arguments...I only hold them marginally higher than yours or any other knowledgeable fan.

...but just because you agree with him doesn't make it right either.

[beelzebub 22,244]

47 minutes ago, rjay said:

I'm not a fan of Gary's analysis at the best of times. I think he's been out of the game for far too long to be relevant.

Also he has never coached at the level.

Unfortunately this is the case with most of the so called experts.

They are really not football experts they are football personalities.

Maybe Hardwick would be interesting for a year or so but unfortunately I think coaches who want to get back in the game hold their cards too close and don't really give everything away.

 

You dispute his analysis  ?.

[Soidee 1,496]

I have no doubt they are playing to instruction, it happens every week.  The players in defence must be getting tired and emotional by now with all their hard work undone forward of centre.  This nonsense must be reigned in quickly or the team will get demoralised, Goodwin gave us a premiership and will always be held in high regard for this, however his coaching and pig headed approach to change will put us back in the pack.  Everyone can see what’s going on…..what’s his problem?

[DemonWA 3,480]

Not trying to defend the undefendable, but given the wet conditions im sure there was a direction to avoid overuse. 

 

[Lucifers Hero 37,207]

55 minutes ago, rjay said:

It would be interesting to see how many of our inside 50's are from us winning the ball back and pushing it back inside.

It looks like that is exactly what is happening - we lose the i50 ground ball, it bounces out and the mids and def get the turnover and back i50 it goes.  Rinse and repeat.

No wonder we had so many i50 for such little scoring result.

55 minutes ago, rjay said:

If this number is as I suspect then the forwards are playing a defensive role in assisting turnovers.

Not sure I get this point - by losing the ground ball i50 it is the opp that are getting the turnover not our fwds.  Did you mean the mids and def are assisting the turnover further upfield....

[Gawndy the Great 7,623]

Some of this is 101 forward craft.

I think the issue is a combination of player IQ / composure and coaching. 

IQ - not using the free target or player in better position and long in targeted bombs into the hot spot.

Compusre - fumbles, panic, long bombs etc.

Coaching - No forward line structure (crumbers at the fall of the contest) , too tall , no movement in 50, hotspots kicking etc.

I don’t think the coaching staff are this incompetent. I mean this is U11 tactics. I think a lot of this has to do with playing Gawn and Grundy in the same team and the coaching team are trying to make this work. Having Gawn in the forward line permanently is costing us atm. This is what Goody was referring to in every post game presser. 
 

Not sure what the fix is but Gawn needs confidence back and that is playing 80/20 ruck/ forward. 

[Brownie 5,367]

45 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Maybe, but options who get burned tend to be shy the next time. Trust and commitment is hard won, easily forgotten, and not linear in its return.

Yeah that footage of sparrow with his back to the kicker 60m out makes me think they know the ball will always go deep to a pack.

The same with all three forwards sprinting deep into our f50. No-one turned to lead out or sideways into space. They were all leading deep towards the square / pocket.

I suspect the instructions are just "go deep into our f50" and we'll lock it in and win it with contested ball "because that's our brand"

It's a flawed strategy because everyone (including the opposition) knows pretty much where it's going to go.

As is mentioned in numerous other threads and probably this one, good teams hit targets leading into space 30 to 40m out. 

The Pickett lead shown was a good example. He also delivered a fantastic pass to someone across goals in the first quarter too instead of blazing away.

You rarely see that from us. Remember how frustrating it was getting with the kick it long along the wing and then our forwards leading into the pocket last year?

We are pretty much back there again.

I remember the pre-season threads about how we were playing more daring footy through the centre corridor and moving it into the forward line fast.

We seem to have regressed a lot.

If there were only 4 marks inside f50 in that last game, we are probably not even having many simple set shots that aren't hard against the boundary. It may be a contributor to why our accuracy is so bad too and why our set shot kicking is generally carp.

[Binmans PA 26,292]

1 hour ago, Lucifers Hero said:

This has to be the most damning stat of all:

"According to Champion Data, Melbourne is overall the best contested possession team in the competition. Specifically, Simon Goodwin’s side is ranked first in the league for contested possessions won in both the defensive 50 and midfield.

But alarmingly, the Dees are ranked 16th for contested ball in their forward 50"

Even if the talls bring it to ground our ground level players can't win it.  So we are losing in the air and on the ground.

So much for having so many defensive forwards!!  

You'd think having Petracca play 70/30% forward/midfield, that'd help our contested play in the forward half.

[rjay 23,948]

Ok, lets look at his suggestions.

It's always easy to isolate incidents and show players up...you could do that with every team, every game.

5 suggestions.

1. Isolate Kysaiah Pickett inside 50 more often and play him out of the goalsquare. Lyon said: He’s a terrible match-up one-out deep.”

Yeah...maybe but it's never that easy. Otherwise the Tiges for one would do it all the time with Dusty who is an even worse match up. Opposition teams just don't let it happen like that.

2. Don’t be afraid to play Christian Petracca forward more. Lyon said: “He’s their best one-on-one player … At some stage against St Kilda, one of the great defensive teams, it just might be Petracca and (Clayton) Oliver (inside 50) – and clear out. Or it might be (Max) Gawn one out in the goalsquare.”

Clayton Oliver is injured Gary...It's a big reason Tracc has had to do more midfield time. Again it's not easy to clear out the forward half particularly against a team like the Saints. I would look to move the ball quicker though. It would help Kozzie and Trac  if they could get more even match ups rather than a packed forward line. It's hard to find space with nearly all players in your forward half...

3. Re-call Charlie Spargo to the starting 22. Lyon said: “I think he’s their best inside 50 kick. He needs to come back in at some stage.”

Charlie was in poor form and doesn't deserve a call up...our best kick inside 50 is probably Bowey or Salem but we don't have stats on that as they don't often get high enough up the ground. A move may help.

4. Re-call Jacob van Rooyen to the starting 22. Lyon said: “(Harry) Petty and van Rooyen is the combination (inside 50). I don’t know why they went away from that … because they need competitors as the contest number tells you. Petty and van Rooyen are competitors.”

Not so sure with Petty as it's going to depend on match ups. It's pretty obvious why they went away from it...it really only worked properly against the Hawks in the 1st half. Our FD didn't trust Tommo to play on Cameron, as it was it was a non issue but who was to know. We're a better team with Lever as an interceptor. As for JVR, I would rather he played but maybe they wanted to take the pressure off and give BBB a run...in my mind wrong game and wrong time.

...and really JVR isn't the answer, he's a good kid finding his way. This is one of those easy to say things but fact is we are bereft of KPF's and a big part of the problem.

We've had to manufacture a plan to deal with a lack of key personnel....

5. Push Christian Salem up the ground to help with their inside 50 kick retention issues. Lyon said: “He’s a very good distributor, maybe he takes a position forward of the ball.”

Salem or Bowey for mine, we could do with better ball use. I would think of playing one on a wing and moving Hunter forward. He's a smart player close to goal. That seems obvious from the outside.

[rjay 23,948]

10 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

It looks like that is exactly what is happening - we lose the i50 ground ball, it bounces out and the mids and def get the turnover and back i50 it goes.  Rinse and repeat.

No wonder we had so many i50 for such little scoring result.

Not sure I get this point - by losing the ground ball i50 it is the opp that are getting the turnover not our fwds.  Did you mean the mids and def are assisting the turnover further upfield....

I think the forwards are putting pressure on the disposal...but in reality that's the easy bit.

Better they get the ball and put pressure on the scoreboard.

[beelzebub 22,244]

If this doesn't highlight that our forwards trust has nfi ... im not sure what can.

This showcases out ineptitude.  We actually display not one iota of forward craft or intelligence. 

Where are the leads...where are the options ?..  Even when options lets kick.it to the pocket....and if thats not bad enough make sure its contested or can be banged oob.    

Anyone who has played inside the forward arc knows the prime directive is separation. Its to give yourself space and deny your defender(s) opportunity. 

Thats why you lead, thats why you take your opposite on a merry dance away from where you actually want to be but then get off the leash...   you work out of dead spaces into the high % zones. Not vice versa

You dont spoil your teammates marks,... you might disguise a block. 

You dont all run to the same spot...someone looks to the next give off.

All of this is Footy 101 Forward play for Dummies..

Someone send a copy to Stafford...  with post it notes explaining the pictures.

[rjay 23,948]

2 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

If this doesn't highlight that our forwards trust has nfi ... im not sure what can.

This showcases out ineptitude.  We actually display not one iota of forward craft or intelligence. 

Where are the leads...where are the options ?..  Even when options lets kick.it to the pocket....and if thats not bad enough make sure its contested or can be banged oob.    

Anyone who has played inside the forward arc knows the prime directive is separation. Its to give yourself space and deny your defender(s) opportunity. 

Thats why you lead, thats why you take your opposite on a merry dance away from where you actually want to be but then get off the leash...   you work out of dead spaces into the high % zones. Not vice versa

You dont spoil your teammates marks,... you might disguise a block. 

You dont all run to the same spot...someone looks to the next give off.

All of this is Footy 101 Forward play for Dummies..

Someone send a copy to Stafford...  with post it notes explaining the pictures.

We have 2 quality forwards Kossie and Fritsch.

What do you expect Stafford to do with a bunch of role players?

It's the list.

[jnrmac 19,131]

10 minutes ago, Brownie said:

Yeah that footage of sparrow with his back to the kicker 60m out makes me think they know the ball will always go deep to a pack.

The same with all three forwards sprinting deep into our f50. No-one turned to lead out or sideways into space. They were all leading deep towards the square / pocket.

I suspect the instructions are just "go deep into our f50" and we'll lock it in and win it with contested ball "because that's our brand"

It's a flawed strategy because everyone (including the opposition) knows pretty much where it's going to go.

As is mentioned in numerous other threads and probably this one, good teams hit targets leading into space 30 to 40m out. 

The Pickett lead shown was a good example. He also delivered a fantastic pass to someone across goals in the first quarter too instead of blazing away.

You rarely see that from us. Remember how frustrating it was getting with the kick it long along the wing and then our forwards leading into the pocket last year?

We are pretty much back there again.

I remember the pre-season threads about how we were playing more daring footy through the centre corridor and moving it into the forward line fast.

We seem to have regressed a lot.

If there were only 4 marks inside f50 in that last game, we are probably not even having many simple set shots that aren't hard against the boundary. It may be a contributor to why our accuracy is so bad too and why our set shot kicking is generally carp.

So much on the money here. The Sparrow ignore screams they know where its going - long

We're not holding the ball in our 50. We're 17th in the last 6 weeks.

4 marks in our fwd 50 from 70+ entries. FMD what a sh8tshow

[beelzebub 22,244]

2 minutes ago, rjay said:

We have 2 quality forwards Kossie and Fritsch.

What do you expect Stafford to do with a bunch of role players?

It's the list.

Im sorry Rjay but quite laughable.  Are you seriously saying we've got players on our list who cant play footy ?  

Not all players are AAA ..   but you dont get to AFL level... you don't get on a list of a Premiership Team without some ability.

Its ENTIRELY the job of Stafford and his boss to ensure theyre playing the most effective football.  

If they are doing the wrong thing...instruct and train the correct way.  We're not trying to solve complex trigonometry here.

A lot of what we do up front is NOT instinctive footy. I'm not the first or only one to observe that. We're actually playing a very distinct non-natural style of footy. That has to be by directive.  So if you can direct one style...alas....useless...maybe better to instigate another style...again by design.

You dont need to be AAA to play the 'right' way

[BW511 2,263]

15 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

So much on the money here. The Sparrow ignore screams they know where its going - long

We're not holding the ball in our 50. We're 17th in the last 6 weeks.

4 marks in our fwd 50 from 70+ entries. FMD what a sh8tshow

These stats are really interesting from the point of view of our team structure/gameplan.

We’ve built a structure to be a contested ball team, forward of the ball. Yet we are one of the worst in the comp at our preferred style 

Edited July 4, 2023 by BW511

[rjay 23,948]

1 minute ago, beelzebub said:

Im sorry Rjay but quite laughable.  Are you seriously saying we've got players on our list who cant play footy ?  

Not all players are AAA ..   but you dont get to AFL level... you don't get on a list of a Premiership Team without some ability.

Its ENTIRELY the job of Stafford and his boss to ensure theyre playing the most effective football.  

If they are doing the wrong thing...instruct and train the correct way.  We're not trying to solve complex trigonometry here.

A lot of what we do up front is NOT instinctive footy. I'm not the first or only one to observe that. We're actually playing a very distinct non-natural style of footy. That has to be by directive.  So if you can direct one style...alas....useless...maybe better to instigate another style...again by design.

You dont need to be AAA to play the 'right' way

Where did I say AA?

We don't have the tall cattle forward that other top 8 teams have.

Open your eyes and have a good look.

Even the bottom 2 teams have better KPF's than us.

Not all AA's but good solid KPF's, we don't have one.

All teams have weaknesses and it's been ours for a couple of seasons now.

[beelzebub 22,244]

1 minute ago, rjay said:

Where did I say AA?

We don't have the tall cattle forward that other top 8 teams have.

Open your eyes and have a good look.

Even the bottom 2 teams have better KPF's than us.

Not all AA's but good solid KPF's, we don't have one.

All teams have weaknesses and it's been ours for a couple of seasons now.

You inferred quality... my bad..

We dont allow forwards to actually play forward footy.  We play congested contested rubbish.

Good sytems , good training creates good effective players. You classicly dont need a team.of champions...just be the champion team.  But you will need a good solid intelligent football game. 

The last time I ever played that kind of stacks on the mill type footy was primary school.  As soon a proper coach got hold of us the first thing they teach is system....not congestion. 

[poita 3,641]

45 minutes ago, Gawndy the Great said:

I think a lot of this has to do with playing Gawn and Grundy in the same team and the coaching team are trying to make this work. Having Gawn in the forward line permanently is costing us atm. This is what Goody was referring to in every post game presser. 
Not sure what the fix is but Gawn needs confidence back and that is playing 80/20 ruck/ forward. 

Agree with this, on many levels. Our forward woes are not solely Gawn's fault, but he is certainly a significant factor.

1. Gawn does his best work in the ruck and behind the ball, and is elite in these aspects. Everything else is taking away his strengths and is distracting him from his main tasks. He's also not resting when forward, and is probably copping more hits by having five defenders jumping into him in every contest. Okay to send him forward on occasion as a point of difference to exploit a matchup, but no more.

2. Gawn has no idea where to run as forward and ends up dragging his opponent into spaces that Brown/Fritsch/JVR are operating in. He is also offering nothing in the way of blocks and shepherds to create space for his teammates.

3. Dropping the ball on Gawn's head is a cop out for our midfielders and stops them looking for short options. If he is not there, they are forced to look elsewhere and honour quality leads. It also makes our other forwards get active.

4. Gawn's goalkicking is nowhere near good enough for him to be playing regular forward time. He last went above 50% accuracy in 2018, and that figure excludes complete misses. He probably averages closer to 1/3 accuracy.

5. It is embarrassing watching him trying to provide pressure when we turn the ball over and the opposition walk the ball out of our F50. He can barely raise a jog at present and every team knows it.

6. The less said about Grundy as a forward, the better. I know he's kicked a few goals this year, but very few have been the result of good forward craft. I think he has generally been pretty poor in all parts of his game, particularly in recent weeks.

 

[Cheap Seats 3,303]

2 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

This has to be the most damning stat of all:

"According to Champion Data, Melbourne is overall the best contested possession team in the competition. Specifically, Simon Goodwin’s side is ranked first in the league for contested possessions won in both the defensive 50 and midfield.

But alarmingly, the Dees are ranked 16th for contested ball in their forward 50"

Even if the talls bring it to ground our ground level players can't win it.  So we are losing in the air and on the ground.

So much for having so many defensive forwards!!  

It's pretty obvious.

Ball goes in, ball comes out. Rinse and repeat every game 

[Watson11 1,910]

46 minutes ago, rjay said:

We have 2 quality forwards Kossie and Fritsch.

What do you expect Stafford to do with a bunch of role players?

It's the list.

How about he instruct at least one to lead at the ball carrier and not all run to the same spot. Even better, how about he instruct them never to kick long to a pack, and always kick to advantage.  If you want to see how it works when you have a mediocre bunch of roles players in your forward 50 go and watch Collingwood.

[frankie_d 1,408]

7 minutes ago, Watson11 said:

How about he instruct at least one to lead at the ball carrier and not all run to the same spot. Even better, how about he instruct them never to kick long to a pack, and always kick to advantage.  If you want to see how it works when you have a mediocre bunch of roles players in your forward 50 go and watch Collingwood.

(My emphasis)

100%

I have watched them a few times this year (don't ask...) - and they play to different instructions from our forwards/mids

16th --- SIXTEENTH!!! in forward line retention